"SS re-enactors at Salute" Topic

Gentlemen,

I've been attending Salute for years, and usually have no problem with a few re-enactors. This time was different.

My surname is Konstam. That comes from the German Kohenstamn, which means "Son of Cohen". My father had to flee Germany in the early 1930's, one step ahead of Hitler's thugs. Not all of the family made it out.

The last thing I want to see at a wargame show is a bunch of 30 or so British-born re-enactors dressing up as these same thugs, parading around with swastikas, and selling CD's of Nazi music. Then there were the children, parading around in jet-black Nazi uniforms. It turned my blood cold just seeing them.

The only bright spot was that none of the group appeared to be particularly fine examples of the "master race".

I think that the least the organisers should do is make a grovelling apology in the wargame press, admitting that they blundered, and that they won't make the same mistake again. Either that or simply rename their show the "Nazi Salute".

Oh, as for complaining – believe me – I did. I filled in forms, spoke to several of the organisers, and sent off e-mails. My only regret is not being hauled off by security for bopping the "re-enactment" thugs on the nose.

Angus Konstam
edinburghwargames.com

Who the heck would actually WANT to be SS re-enactors? That is my gut reaction.

Now, part of the problem with re-enacting SS is that you would offend someone because there would be people that were actually alive. This is true for just about any hate group. KKK is still active today and just as hateful. You wouldn't re-enact these people would you?

Germany has laws against wearing Nazi paraphenalia for good reason.

I was not at Salute but I can say that any sort of activity like this is just plain wrong.

John

Well hello all. I was at Salute on Saturday and thought that the SS re-enactors looked excellent and portrayed the equipment and weapons of the Waffen SS very well. I did think that it may cause some people to be offended, but then lets get real. There are a lot of things in this world at the moment that I suggest that most of us, regardless of our nationality or political beliefs, find offensive. For example, extremists flying planes into buildings and blowing up Undergroud trains, US warplanes attacking their own allies in the Gulf War and the serious immigration issues with have in the UK! Lets put the SS re-enactors into perspective shall we. They were potraying Waffen SS combat units, not concentration camp guards or the Gestapo. Contrary to what many people seem to think, there was a big difference. Yes they were all Nazis and yes the Waffen SS did commit some atrocities, but so did allied army units. The Russian army exterminated whole towns and areas of their so called own people, but because they were on the winning side, nobody mentions it. In fact they killed many thousands of Jewish people and were still persecuting them until the end of the Cold War, long after the concentration camps were shut down. So I guess there won't be any Russian re-enactors allowed at any shows in the future then? I confess that I was surprised to see the children in Hitler Youth uniforms and I agree that selling mugs portraying Hitler was probably in bad taste.

My family members fought in WW2 against the Germans and the Japanese. One of whom was captured a Singapore and I'm pretty sure that he may view the Japanese treatment of him and his men, as a lot harsher than a few wargamers being easily offended by a group of re-enactors potraying the Waffen SS.

Bottom line guys, is that if people like the re-enactors don't remind us of terrible events, we'll end up going through it all again in the future! All the armies in history have had their dark moments, but we have to remember that the majority of soldiers on all sides were human beings just trying to survive and get home again, despite the respective doctrines forced upon them by political regimes that rarely set foot on the battlefield themselves.

I sympathise with those of you that have been affected by the treatment the Nazis dished out, but lets get things in perspective. At this rate, we'll never have an re-enactors of any period, as you'll never please everybody.

Get a life guys!

To Brett1815:

If that's your idea of "getting real"… Sorry, mate, but I have to disagree…

Hmmm I'm curious at how many feel the 'waffen' SS and the 'other' SS are tottally seperate.

As ALL officers had to be party members, and the enlisted men were encouraged to join also.

Re-enacting is all fine and dandy, but should people wearing SS uniforms (and hitler youth uniforms) been seen (and associated) at the major wargame show in the UK?

If I wanted to go see SS re-enactors, I'd go to a re-enactment event.

There was sales of nazi themed goods that are banned in Germany (BTW did they pay for trade space?).

A slow news day could have coverage that would probably get the show banned from the event hall (due to bad press).

Yes wargamers 'may' own SS units for the wargames table (personally I don't), but they are hidden amoung the mass of other wargaming periods. The SS re-enactors were too 'in your face' to anyone entering the event (and outside the event).

Lets put it this way, if they become a regular feature at Salute, I'll NOT be attending.

Its NOT wargaming, and it wasn't educational. Its fine if you want to buy a Hitler Mug or some SS marching songs to brighten you day. But, its not for me (and hopefully its not for to many others).

Want to go see some re-enactors?

Go to a re-enacting event.

The point I'm trying to make is that we either ban all re-enactors from shows, or accept that to portray history accurately, we have to view both the good and the bad to gain an overall view. Wargaming and wargame shows are just fun, playing with miniature figures. You would think that the the Nazis were marching up Whitehall or Pennsylvania Avenue after reading the previous posts. It's not important, but what's happening now is! To be honest mate, this topic should not be allowed om TMP, as it will only cause resentment, arguments and negative feelings, which is not the idea of this site as I understand it.

GenCon Indy, probably the largest game convention in the world, highly encourages participants in costumes. There are, however, some very good guidelines for what is 'acceptable', including a ban on ALL military uniforms from 1900 on (not including active duty service personnel if appropriate, of course). This whole affair has made me understand the wisdom of this policy.

"To be honest mate, this topic should not be allowed on TMP"

If I wanted to stir up trouble, this is where I'd point out how the Nazi apologists are also in favor of banning a discussion that is unfavorable to them. ;)

Hehehe. :D

"Bottom line guys, is that if people like the re-enactors don't remind us of terrible events, we'll end up going through it all again in the future!"

What a crock (in this case, at least). I understand, from reading all the comments, that the reenactors didn't put on any demonstrations, didn't pass out any historical information, didn't identify any of the horror associated with the regime. No, all they did was bring out spiffy equipment, sharp uniforms (toddlers thru matrons to plus-sized adults) to show what a wonderful thing it all was.

The presentation wasn't even handed, so there is no reminder of the "terrible events". As many others have pointed out, there was no context.

So hardly the kind of thing to help us remember that failures of the past in order to avoid them in the future.

I can assure you that I am not a Nazi, nor am I one of the looney left tree huggers out there either. I would just rather be historically accurate than politically correct. I'm a big fan of the american Civil War as a period and I like to play the Confederates. Does that make me pro-slavery? No, of course not. If that was the case, there are several thousand Confederate re-enactors, who are in serious trouble, based on what I have read on TMP today. I do agree that it would best to go to a specific re-enactment event to see SS re-enactors, but then you would have to ban all re-enactors to make it non-discriminatory.

They were just re-enactors. Get over it! If you don't like it, don't go to events where they are going to be. Most people I saw just took a few photos and walked on around the show, no harm done. I dread to think the size of the soap boxes some people will need if something serious happens.

…you would have to ban all re-enactors to make it non-discriminatory…

You can't see any reason for discriminating specifically against the S.S.?

Hello chaps!

I am an active participant in a hobby that many outsiders find baffling. Some think it's silly that I play with toy soldiers. Some think that I must be some sort of warmonger. Some of my friends are a little short of conventional social graces, or look different from, say, accountants and dentists.

(Most gamers are visibly normal, but nobody notices those fellas. It's the weird-looking ones that people remember)

I like to present games to the public, and I especially welcome youngsters to play.

So, can anyone give me some good ideas how I might INCREASE the perception that I am a dangerous lunatic engaged in a celebration of bloodshed? Connect myself in the public eye with, say, widely recognized symbols of evil?

'Cos that seems absolutely the best thing I could do, doncha think?

(Sarcasm mode off)

Only if the re-enactors are openly promoting the Nazi Party and it's beliefs, which I saw no evidence of. If they were, then I agree that would be wrong. I just saw some guys dressed up in SS uniforms and kit as an exhibit. It may not of been wise of the show organisers, but that's a different issue than anybody who dresses up in a historical uniform, actually promoting a political cause. I've yet to met a re-enactor (and I've met many from The Sealed Knot, the ECWS and their ACW counterparts) who actually promotes a political doctrine. Most of them just want to try and recruit us all!

"You would think that the the Nazis were marching up Whitehall or Pennsylvania Avenue after reading the previous posts."

The trouble is that there were probably more "joe public" on the main concourse at Excel on Saturday than there were in Whitehall. If these re-enactors had attended Salute when it was at Olympia or even KTH, it would not have been so bad (although the women and the kids were quite disturbing and unnecessary). But Excel is a VERY public venue. As has been said before, the entrance to the hall is so big that an outsider could see most of the SBG's display (and not much else).

As to re-enactors from other periods, would Joe Public recognise a Mongol if he saw one? I doubt it,. But blokes dressed as the SS – they've all seen "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers" etc.

Fortunately we seem to have escaped the attentions of the press, but it was perhaps a close run thing…

Brett:

Did the re-enactors give a historical context of what the SS was and what it did? Did it show the benefits that they gave as well as the destructive behavior?

If I wore a t-shirt with Hitler on it around a major metropolitan area in the western world, does that mean I'm pro-Hitler or anti-Hitler? Does it mean I'm pro-Hitler only when my shirt says, "I heart Hitler."

At what point is the re-enactor promoting? What behavior counts as countering that promoting behavior.

First of all, I wasn't at Salute so don't know the context of the presentation.

I suppose my only question is, what do they have to do with wargaming ? Is there a new scale of 1800mm figures being introduced ?

Personally, I find the idea of wearing any kind of costume at a convention a bit odd. If a vendor wants to do it to attract attention to his stand, okay – but I may decide you are a bit unprofessional and keep walking.

As far as the ethics of buying miniature SS troops for gaming – I suppose that is one we all need to decide as I'm sure every period has its Evil. I am currently assembling a Boxer Rebellion force – not sure I can ask my gaming friend to play as part of the Boxer's doctrine was eliminating Christianity from China and he is very much a Christian. On the other hand, when my friends play A&A D-Day, I have no trouble taking the German side and happily sending the Allies back into the Channel as I see it as a battle of wits, not a commentary on political ideology.

Craig

Perhaps they'll do something less controversial next year – such as an all-male Japanese Schoolgirls re-enactment troop…

Brett1815: You appear to have joined TMP specifically to defend the S.S. event at Salute?

"I sympathise with those of you that have been affected by the treatment the Nazis dished out, but lets get things in perspective. At this rate, we'll never have an re-enactors of any period, as you'll never please everybody."

You miss a very important point. Someone like Atilla the Hun would probably not be offensive because there is nobody alive today that experienced his cruelty. There are many people left alive who experienced first hand the cruelty of the SS. So yeah. It would probably be offensive to a good many people. It would probably be at least a little creepy to a good many more.

Pictures of the S.S. display can be seen here (scroll all the way to the bottom of the first entry): matakishi.com/news.htm

From what I've heard it's the Vietnam era next.

It's hard to find a war where someone won't be offended. And to be honest, I'm having a hard time seeing how this is in any way really that bad as I've been seeing people make it out to bed.

So, if we're going to try to keep from hurting people's apparently delicate sensibilities, why not go for something earlier in history if Salute continues with the trend of inviting re-enactors to participate? I mean, if it's as Acarhj said that it's too recent in our collective memories, why not have something from the before 100 years ago (just to make sure that any 100 year olds visit the next Salute)?

"You can't see any reason for discriminating specifically against the S.S.?"

I can see reasons, however I can't see particularly good ones.

'living memory' is about it and using that means you are fine with reenactors dressing like people who committed atrocities but you draw a line at a certain length of time ago. Once you admit you are drawing an arbitrary line then obviously others can draw it somewhere else.

Everyone keeps bringing up that Vikings and Romans are ancient history and thus somehow fair game but not a single person replied to the guy who pointed out the war atrocities the Russians committed. Had the Salute reenactors been dressed as Russians I doubt a solitary word would have been raised in protest.

Apart from some of the merchandise which could be seen as popularising, and which was removed at the organisers request anyway, these reenactors weren't actively 'doing' anything. It's hard to tar them with the 'making nazis cool' brush when others are simultaneously complaining that all they did was walk around and not present any evidence about the war etc.

You can't have it both ways, either they were actively popularising the nazi party or they were movung mannequins.

"As to re-enactors from other periods, would Joe Public recognise a Mongol if he saw one? I doubt it,. But blokes dressed as the SS – they've all seen "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers" etc."

A cursory look around even these boards would seem to blow this argument well and truly out of the water. Many wargamers didn't even realise what troop the reenactors were dressed as never mind joe public.

At a multi-period event recently some Polish re-enactors took exception to this group- or a similar one -that allowed their children to be dressed up and officers to appear in full SS (not waffen-ss) regalia and whose conversation in the Beer tent was a bit more political than your usual mixed re-enactment friendly banter.

As the Poles happened to be heavily armed, portraying as they did Polish Napoleonic lancers, it was only swift action by others groups that prevented a fracas.

I stand to be corrected but I think the Sealed Knot English Civil war group refused to appear again at this show.

Yes, they were a bunch of re-enactors dedicated to detail and with a military accuracy some of us could admire.; yes they would have enhanced the show had they been wehrmacht or Panzer-grenadiers,; but involving the children blew it for them and exposed the attitude of some of the members, despite their website's claims

Having the public outside now associate wargaming with Nazi-re-enactment will undo some of the good that the organisers have done for the hobby.

I am sure that Salute took them in in good faith and await their response.

I used to be in an SS re-enactment unit… Even went to a wargames show once. We put on a display with a few bits of memorablia and weapons. Even wandered up and down the queue outside asking people for the 'Password' in our best 'Allo Allo' German accents.

I have also been at the same shows as SBG. They took things alot more seriously than my group… Hence why they did 'Saving Private Ryan' and we posed for photos on the Blubell railway…

At the end of the day I think the reaction of people on TMP (alot of whom probably didnt even got to Salute and are merely throwing fuel on the fire) is the usual mix of hypocrisy and over done outrage.

It wasnt long ago that wargaming was seen as a 'bad' hobby, that children should be protected from, in much the same way RPGers are seen as devil worshippers.

What I hate to see is a niche hobby attacking yet another niche hobby.

How many of the TMPers saw 'Saving Ryans Privates' and loved it? How many go to military shows and ogle over the German kit? How many of you who are 'Mr Outraged' from TMP have a German WW2 Army? Does it have any SS in it?

Truth is… I gave up re-enacting cos it got boring and too expensive. Cant say I agree with the whole kids in Nazi gear thing but if it was done in similar vignette style set-ups that SBG are famous for on the show circuit then I guess they were trying to 'set a scene' if you will.

Personally I think the whole moral outcry over this is rather sad. Maybe I just have a real life outside of wargaming (and TMP) and dont feel the need to attack another hobby. Or maybe I see it from a different perspective…

Have any of you even bothered to email SBG and ask for their response? No I didnt think so…

So they are good enough for Speilburg but not Salute. I have met a few of them over the years and most of them seem normal… But there are always a few 'eccentrics' in re-enactment… I know… My SS unit had a Jew and a Vicar as members. Go figure that.

I think the real problem is Im just sick of politically-correct, nosey-minded, boring, petty people… Shame they seem to populate most forums these days.

Im off to crawl back under my rock…

And I'm sick of people who make light of a seriously sensitive issue that goes beyond the wargaming community and involves the world at large. It has nothing to do with politically correctness. It has nothing to do with moral superiority. It has to do with sensitivity to other people.

I could care less whether the wargaming community has Nazi sympathizers. I do care whether that insensitivity is shown in a public forum.

Just because I wasn't there doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about it. I wasn't in WWII but it certainly affected my family and it affects me today. I also believe in standing for something that I believe in. If that makes me a petty, boring loser in your eyes, it just shows your true colors.

I will just add my two pence worth here as I just got back from the show and I was offended.
I cannot see why reenactors are at wargames show as to my mind they are a seperate hobby and our hobby is big enough to stand on its own.

Anybody who thinks that reenacting the SS is not a political act is delluding themselves and it was innevitable that it would offend people.

Surely the fact that it has resulted in this level of fuss shows that it was a bit stupid to encourage these people or do the views of the people wearing the 'ss on tour' tee shirts reflect the views of the organisers.

Read Matakishi's salute report. I think the last two words of his review hit the nail on the head:

"
…

Please don’t sell German marching song cds and mugs with hateful propaganda pictures on them, that just makes you look like s and wannabe real Nazis which you’re not.
Are you?"

I am concerned about people getting so upset about a bunch of harmless guys dressing up as Germans what is the big deal. I would put money on it that not one member of this group has ever hurt anybody?

I think getting all upset about guys in a costume parading around doing nothing .

Would I put on an SS uniform? No not really, can't see the point and it seems in rather bad taste, but I am MUCH MUCH MUCH more upset to see rapists, murderers, muggers etc etc out on our streets and no one is doing anything about that. For god sake stop getting all worked up about NOTHING and go and rant about something that matters.

Anybody seen the new Valiant plastic Germans, very nice figures :)

Andy
PS Off to paint my toys now, that is all they are, toys. With pretend guns like the re-enactors…..

PPS get some perspective and stop being so indignantly politically correct

Yes but we don't re-enact Iraq and we don't re-enact murders, muggers and rapists either.

I had a long and thorough look at their website. Having been a collector of (allied and post-WWII) vehicles and equipment and at the head of the organisation of one of the main continental European military oldtimer meetings (+400 vehicles attending) for many years myself, I cannot help wondering why the did not chose to represent a regular ("Heer") division…

This way they could have been just a thorough in what they are doing without stepping on so many people's toes (not to mention selling the Hitler "souvenir" mugs and the Hitler Jugend children…).

I'm too familiar with the MVC hobby not to know their is something fishy about the whole (or at least part of) the setup or the members, whatever their statement. I could be otherwise convinced if they would label their presentation with the correct info of what (both) SS & Waffen SS REALLY stood for, but they appearantly prefer selling Hitler mugs instead.

""

Actually, Cpt.Kremmen, .

"Yes but we don't "

Re-enact? No. Game? I could point out half a dozen retailers of modern Iraqi miniatures right now (not including myself). Including suicide bombers.

I believe I recall a report about a US convention where such a scenario was gamed as a large display and don't recall any outrage.

I first bumped into the SS in the line for coffee before Salute opened to the public. Since the next unit I have to paint of my 15mm WWII is SS I was interested in the way the equipment was worn and the way the uniform pattern was affected by the light. It was only when I saw the open disgust of the young Polish girl serving the coffee that I realised that my view was a perhaps little too clinical.

I could still justify their presence to myself on the grounds that they were representing soldiers at a military themed event, however the young boys in HJ uniforms and the Nazi party fraulein with the pram could not be said to be representing anything other than aspects of the Nazi ideology and had no place at the show, or anywhwere else for that matter.

One mistake, even an enormous one such as this, will not stop me coming back to Salute next year, after all we are already planning our game. I am sure that the Warlords have learnt their lesson and will think more carefully in future.

"I believe I recall a report about a US convention where such a scenario was gamed as a large display and don't recall any outrage."

I think a lot of the people buying and gaming these modern periods are in the Military. Personally, I would have thought it "too close".

Sorry: typo in first post.

I wasn't there, but this is still in poor taste and has the potential to harm public perception of our hobby in general. If you can't understand why MANY people would perceive this to be in poor taste or downright offensive, you're probably .

Unfortunately, life has shown me that there is no expiration date on either of those qualities.

Artemis wrote:

"I believe I recall a report about a US convention where such a scenario was gamed as a large display and don't recall any outrage."

I'll ask you again, is there any subject that you would find "outrageous" to see reenacted at a wargame convention or is it just that you just don't see why anybody else should be offended by Nazis (and you don't get much more Nazi than dressing your kids up as Hitler Jugend)?

"Re-enact? No. Game? I could point out half a dozen retailers of modern Iraqi miniatures right now (not including myself). Including suicide bombers.

I believe I recall a report about a US convention where such a scenario was gamed as a large display and don't recall any outrage."

Actually, there's been discussion and no little amount of disgust directed at manufacturers of suicide bomber and the 'dead Iraqi civilian' miniatures on TMP and other forums. Further, there are recurring threads on the ethics and decency of wargaming 'recent events' (and what 'recent' means') on TMP as well.

So, sorry, these apologetics don't really carry any weight.

"I'll ask you again, is there any subject that you would find "outrageous" to see reenacted at a wargame convention or is it just that you just don't see why anybody else should be offended by Nazis (and you don't get much more Nazi than dressing your kids up as Hitler Jugend)?"

That's two completely seperate points dressed up as one.

The answer to the first is 'maybe'. I don't think I'd be offended by the act itself but I can imagine many circumstances where I'd get offended by certain aspects of the people involved in the gamings behaviour. I guess I'm just clinical enough to detach wargaming from reality. I'd be far more likely to wonder 'why' they were wargaming modern Iraq or Afghanistan than be offended by it. the answer to that question might then offend me but not the act itself.

As to the second, completely unrelated, point. I think that there is a rather obvious answer. You do in fact get a lot more Nazi than dressing your kids up as actual historical figures. You could in fact 'be' a Nazi. I've yet to see even the smallest bit of evidence against the re-enactors own claims that they do not support the Nazi ideology.
If you dress you 5yr old up as a viking you aren't dressing him up as a rapist and murdered. Would I dress my kids up as nazis? Not a chance but I'm not prepared to condemn the people who do with any stronger words than 'well thats rather stupid'. There have been people advocating calling child services. A ridiculous and laughable overreaction.

"So, sorry, these apologetics don't really carry any weight."

I don't believe I was apologising for anything or anyone. I was simply stating that there are plenty of manufacturers making modern day forces for the express purpose of gaming modern day wars and conflicts and that there have been many such displays at many recent shows and I don't recall a single outrage about those shows.

Good point, MMitchell. Even if someone has absolutely no qualms about SS reenactment themselves, either because they think it is innocent, or because there are far more recent things to be upset about, the point does not change that the Nazis (and not Romans or Samurai or Mongols, whatever their behaviour) are offensive to many.

When something that is offensive to many, but is not offensive to you, that is a time for *tact*. You cannot browbeat people to not be offended.

Joe Public probably doesn't know an SS-man from a Wehrmacht soldier. Anyone wearing a coal-scuttle and swastika is a Nazi. And most people regard wearing Nazi uniforms (except as film-extras) as offensive or distasteful. So if it is not offensive to you, you've just got to be tactful in the realisation that it is so to the majority.

I think tact was sorely lacking in inviting this group to such a public event.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people don't even understand their own arguements, let alone those of others. If it were a different topic I'd be tempted to laugh. As it is, one can only be concerned with the nature of some of the folks here and their dogged persistence in trying to find some sort of moral relativism between Nazism and [insert anything else].

And we probably now need a new poll to see if the 290 people who (at this time) say they weren't at Salute (which includes me), think that what happened at Salute was acceptable or not! At the moment, the whole poll could be skewed one way or the other by the way the non-attenders' vote.

Arteis,

I'm not sure soliciting the opinions of folks that were not at Salute is in any way valid. We base our opinions not on what went on but on reports of what went on. I think the folks that actually attended Salute are capable of dealing with the issue intelligently. Those that did not attend should listen and learn.

mjc

Quick rule to live by: if you get into a bitter argument over whether or not something is offensive, it is.

Fair point, Quidveritas.

But as someone who intends to travel to the UK to visit Salute some time, but would've found the whole thing a huge anti-climax had I turned up this year, I feel non-attenders should be entitled to voice their views as well – so long as they are identified as being non-attenders.

I strongly suspect the non-attenders' vote would probably go along much the same lines as the attenders' vote is presently going, judging by the comments on the various message threads.

All in all, votes by both attenders and non-attenders won't make much difference anyway – the deed was done, and it seems a lesson has been learned. In a way, all we're doing now is kicking a dead horse.

As someone who has been to Salute several times, and had tickets for three of us to fly over this year until business requirements intervened, I agree with you, Arteis.

I don't agree that a lesson has been learned. I'll have to wait and see on that point.

Allen

This is why re-enactors get on my nerves… The mixed reactions they get are overpowered by any good (and I believe they do nothing good by re-enacting what ever period they choose) they might actually do.

Many will find it offensive or aplogetic, many more will find it silly, and the vast majority jusy finds it weird and incomprehensible.

It's history, learn from it… Don't go around attempting to repeat it.

Artemis,

I appreciate you clarifying your position. From your initial posts I inferred that you believe that if a person isn't equally outraged by vikings/mongols/Hittites/whatever than one does not have the right to be outraged by Nazis.

I strongly disagree with this position of moral relativism. By this same logic you don't have the right to object to games about the current war in Iraq because you aren't equally uncomfortable about games about any conflict.

I personally reserve the right to be outraged or uncomfortable or entralled by any subject, depending on the context. For instance, I would be far less disturbed about a group portraying the SS at a Living History Through the Ages event than I would if the exact same group showed up outside the gates at Dachau. The group at a wargame convention would certainly fall somewhere in between.