"SS re-enactors at Salute" Topic

How many of you who were offended will boycott Salute next year, or at least write/email the organisers directly to complain?

Very few I would imagine!

Quote TMP link "And I don't see what they added to a wargaming convention, either.They took up a lot of space in a central location. Too many traders (who paid for tables) were stuck in cramped locations. I constantly had to weave and fight my way through to get to things. (And it seemed to me quieter than last year?). I think space could have been better used for what I thought Salute was about…."

A few traders were complaining that they were cramped at the back (eg a trader near 14), and they felt they would had been happier placed in the middle. The re-enactors should have been at the back with maybe notices put up for example – "if you are offended by the SS, please do not cross this line".

There are many shows on the circuit which are better than Salute (IMHO). Maybe the people who are offended could choose another show to spend their savings!

Sorry, there is a HUGE difference between people having a historical interest in a controversial period on history, and actually SUBSCRIBING to and BELIEVING in an idiology from a particual time in history.

Now, let me ask everybody this. On a certain level, there is NO difference between buying Nazi marching music CD's and going to Gettysburg because you are proud southerner, and picking up some of the Confederate Army's Greatest Marching Tunes. NO DIFFERENCE. The only difference that one might apply is that one time period is more palatable than the other. Ok, so the confederacy might be more easy to swallow than nazi germany, but both were controversial to say the least. And the confederate flag causes as much controversy as the nazi flag does, yet you don't hear this kind of banter and arguing if some fellows are dressed as a couple of Lee's 1860's veterans at a gaming convention. It makes no sense.

The point is, you can be a WWII historian, collect German and SS antique memorabilia, listen to WWII period German inspirational songs and music, even SS marching tunes, and still NOT IN ANY WAY BE a nazi!!! God, black and white, black and white. People think!!

I highly doubt the people who were there are actually neo Nazis.

If you can't reenact the SS, then there also should be no confederate reenactors, or Roman reenactors, or any WWII Japanese or German army reenactors either. And there should also be no miniature recreations or scale wargames of any battles involving any controversial nations or governments. Give me a break. Occasionally at Williamsburg Va, they have historical recreations of slave auctions! Now, it's only those who come to that place with ignorance of history who find that offensive. When you ask the black people who are reenacting the actual slaves, they will tell you that they have a interest in THE TIME PERIOD, they are not trying to promote the selling of slaves TODAY…..for the love of God, c'mon.

Mike

I'll say no more than pass on a comment made to me by the barrista at the coffee stand outside.

When asked if I was up for the Marathon, answered no – I'm at Salute over there

Reply – Oh thats where the Nazis are……

I couldn't care a less. I was there.
I didn't find it offenseive as they aren't REALLY nazis. Its a good historical representation of what happened, that's just like saying nazis in a game is 'immoral'.
Anyways, I liked it, I thought it was impressive.

Each and every one of us who attended Salute – and plenty who didn't – have a view to share on the SS re-enactors, and despite what a few posts try to argue, it's clear from reading the various threads that the majority – the VAST majority of people commenting found the re-enactors distasteful to some degree. If you don't personally feel like that, fine, but please accept that enough people attending the show felt uncomfortable or ashamed with the SS connection to the UK hobby's Big Day Out.

And maybe think about how the hobby now looks to the thousands of non-gamers who were in and around the venue that day. I saw plenty of folks who would have been alive in or fought in the Second World War, and like it or not, most Britons (whether they themselves were directly involved in the Second World War or separated by one or two genrations) aren't going to feel easy seeing people walking around with guns, or dressed in military uniform, especially if they recognise the political connotation of that uniform. It's not going to win our hobby any new friends.

The poll is eventually going to reflect how gamers felt about these re-enactors being at Salute, but I don't think we'll be seeing that group back again.

Thurlac,

"Wakmaggot feels that their wickedness is that they killed people efficiently as opposed to haphazardly so that makes it worse. Evil is defined by how well it is carried out? Surely something not even Thomas Aquinas considered."

No, I've worded my post badly so you seem to have misunderstood it. A group of senior Nazi officials sat around a table and planned out the "Final Solution". It involved the creation of camps to sort people who would be worked to death and people who would just be executed. They knew the numbers would be massive so they devised a way to conduct the extermination as efficiently as possible and would also leave as little dirt as possible under their fingernails. That sounds like a pretty good definition of pure evil if you ask me. No "rush of blood to the head" moment of madness, just a cold & calculated solution to a problem that only ever existed in their own warped minds.

Symbols carry meaning no matter how old they are and we only have to watch the outrage a burning of a flag can provoke. The swastika armbands this group were wearing yesterday carries a message whether the person wearing it agrees with those views or not. Personally I wouldn't wish to even stand near to someone who had the emblem on an item of clothing or a piece of jewellery (and I didn't either). I agree totally that a stark and frank discussion about the rise of fascism and the repercussions of it that still impact on our lives is called for but how but how can this be served by having a group of weekend warrior SS troops wandering around at a hobby show?

Just went to their website and looked around.

Sorry guys, having been a Civil War reenactor for 15 years( did both Union AND confederate portrayals), I can tell you that this is simply a group of WWII reenactors who love history, and who are misunderstood because of the appaling ignorance of history out there among the masses.

These guys are interested in history, not neo-nazism. They are serious reenactors, proud of keeping the memory of german soldiers alive. I bet if you asked them, one of the main philosophies they have would be that the soldiers that served in SS units served honorably, and contrary to popular belief, they weren't all bayonetting babies and shooting old men and gassing people at concentration camps. The SS fought in some of the toughest campaigns in WWII, and deserve to be honorably remembered. In a military sense, the SS were like our Marines or like the elite Roman legions or any other elite military group. Highly trained, tough fighters, tough men fighting for the honor of their country.

But you say SS today, and you think Hitler. And the conversation ends, because people don't have time for the details. They want their version of history preserved, they don't want to upset their comfort zone.

But the military history of the SS and the men who fought in those units, that MUST be kept seperate from the stigma of nazi germany and the legacy of Hitler!!! The two things are a million miles apart, the problem is that most people can't seperate them. Yet they must be seperated.

And let us not forget that there was a HUGE movement in the UNITED STATES during WWII supporting Hitler and the nazi party. The idea that somehow the nazi philosophy and anti-semetic mentality was limited to Germany's borders, wow…..read up on your history. Or that in the US in the 1920's and 1930's there were as many KKK groups in NORTHERN STATES as their were in southern states, in fact there may have been a bigger enrollment in the KKK in terms of sheer numbers in the north. And many who joined the KKK were actually ex-UNION soldiers, as well as confederates!!

Politically correct history be damned my friends.

I don't see any neo-nazism in what they are portraying whatsoever.

I've met thousands of confederate reenactors, and I don't consider one of them to be a white supremist or promoter of people owning other people. It's actually quite amazing to talk to southerners. They are just as in touch with what's going on, in fact sometimes even more so. They are as sophisticated as any northerner when it comes to racism. And they think it just as ridiculous that people consider them to be nazis or white supremists because they dress up in gray on the weekends. They are just proud of what their ancestors did. When they leave the event for the weekend, they go back to their lives like you and I do.

Mike

Well it sounds like reading all the posts on here and the message page that it was the selling of items and the women and kids that caused the most offence..

As for the SS well yes they were good fighters but they represent one of the most repulsive regimes ever, and anyone who says well it was 60 years ago should never forget how these individuals would have killed and raped there families without a thought..

My farther who died 20 years ago had the job of hunting such individuals down after the war and resolving all family business to put it correctly. And they deserved it.
They never once were either ashamed or disgusted by there actions. Even to the end arrogant and stubborn. that is why the guys on here are so outraged at it..!

I think maybe everyones got a little upset over a minor affair here, yeah these guys are dressed up like SS, but they are not SS!
It's a costume, no more than you will see in a movie, and as it was at a wargames show what do you expect to see there? Teddy-bears? Come on people we cannot cover up what happened in the past, and whats more we must not, yet these people were only reenactors they were not persecuting anyone or murdering were they?
I don't see anyone getting upset when they see reenactors getting dressed up like crusaders or templars who slaughtered millions of muslims in jerusalem and the reason is that people differentiate for some reason between that period and reenactment, why its different for WW2 I can only speculate is down to it still being in some peoples living memory, but for all those who think that the swastika should be airbrushed out of history, I say to you this, it wont, you will always have those who will use it for ill and what ever you do do not mistake those for the people at salute yesterday who were reenacting not glorifying.

Just read through their reenacting philosophy on their website. This is a DIRECT quote from the site:

"The SBG is acutely aware of its controversial portrayal in this hobby and is a totally non political organization.
People with para military, ideological or extreme views will NOT be accepted as members."

Most confederate reenacting units here in the US could and do say similar things with regards to the history of the confederacy, the KKK and slavery.

Nothing more needs to be said. These guys are no different as somebody who goes to a hobby store to buy a model of a Tiger Tank and paints SS markings on it. It's a love of history and of fighting men, not an IDEOLOGY.

Mike

I totally accept the argument that these guys aren't neo-nazis so we shouldn't be branding them as such but my take on it is why wear something you don't agree with just because it's historically accurate? Would we have lost the idea without the armbands, the memorabilia and the kids in uniform? No, we wouldn't. Living history groups covering the crusades don't sit around pretending to eat human flesh do they? And I've never seen the Ermine Street Guard crucifying someone either.

Campaigner1: "Politically correct history be damned my friends."

I don't know if you were at Salute, but can you please tell me how exactly their presence there in that form, and in what they did, added anything to any interpretation of history?

I'm glad you find their site informative. I find it highly generalised and of very little use to anyone. And idealised. And they did not hand out leaflets or initiate conversations. They simply marched around. Sure, if you walked up to one they might have been informative and friendly. They didn't look it, the reaction of most people I saw around Excel (outside Salute) was to give them a wide berth and they certainly didn't seem to be initiating any educational program, hand out leaflets saying "Who am I?" etc etc. Nor did I see any demonstrations, such as stripping down a MG42, or anything else that might have been interesting. Nor could anyone climb onto their stuff or poke around. See the proper stuff – in context – in the Imperial War Museum or similar.

I just saw a bunch of guys wandering around dressed like the SS. In a public convention centre. In east London. It isn't about airbrushing the swastika out of history, Mad McGobbo. It is about not allowing it to be glorified or presented one-sidedly or without a rounded context. And, for Salute, whether this is the public face of British/ English wargaming that they really wish to show.

Sorry, but in my mind it was a bad move by the organisers.

Not only with the general perception by the non wargamer public in the area (wargaming equals a love of nazis), but also annoying the trade (who pay for their stands).

Re-enacting has its own conventions/meets, and Salute isn't needing to look to fill empty/unused space. So 'why' were they even there?

The problem is if it had been an Allied re-enactment group, it would have been viewed as 'militaria'. But put an SS re-enactment group in its place and we have links to a political party/ideology.

….and you organise a public convention, you HAVE to be aware of some basic rules of 'PR'. I wouldn't be expecting to see SS re-enactors at a wargames show and know its not the norm. But if someone had been covering the show for the press or local TV news (unlikely but possible), then would they have assumed wargaming is all about ressurecting the 'glory' of the SS?

I wasn't at Salute but I am not a fan of the re-eanacting hobby in general.

Is it "glorifying" war or Nazis? I don't know about that but I wouldn't want to make anyone uncomfortable or risk offending anybody with my "hobby"…

ArrOOoo, Cattledog

My brother is a reenacter, 502nd, 101st trooper. And he has run into the SS groups. And for the most part they are young kids, late teens early 20's. They know full well what they are doing and what it stands for. Sadly from what he has told me, they believe in the Nazi view.

But to have them at a gaming convention is very bad form. And the sort of thing our hobby doesnt need. I dont agree that they should be at reenacting events even, but I can see to some degree were they can allow that.

Cheers Neil

Just be thankful the Allies won the war, or the goose stepping morons would be all over the place!! :-)

"Marquis: so to you, evil is only evil if it embarasses your friends? How about using the opportunity to discuss the matter further with both your friend and his son and maybe, just, maybe giving them an insight into the conflict other than: "Never forget Germans are evil"."

Thurluck, that has to be one of the stupidest comments I have ever read on this site.

Do you for one moment think that my friend's family (and their 13 year old son) is in any way ignorant of the past? They lost well over half their family to the camps….hence the sensitivity.

Amazingly enough, all of the people I know (and choose to hang out with) are perfectly capable of discussing such issues without the need for fat guys dressed up as SS, kids dressed as HJ, or commemorative Hitler coffee mugs.

The sheer conceit to think that you should be allowed to strut around a public place dressed as a ing Nazi, and get to mask it in some nebulous fog of "well, it is thought provoking", beggers belief.

Your specious argument is pathetic.

I should add here that I have no issue with historical re-enactment. I don't think there is a problem with folks portraying the SS, or anything else for that mater.

My issue is in the idea that the Warlords chose to have only one group of people (representing the very worst aspect of the war), standing around all day in a public place. There was no educational value to it – no thought provoking conversation piece, no comparison with their British or American counterparts, nothing.

It was insensitive, and entirely the wrong venue.

…what do you expect to see there? Teddy-bears?

If 'Eureka' is around, yes.

Wargamers are a bunch of duffuses (or duffi?) , this just goes over the top to prove it.

Where were the 'Blues Brothers' reenactors to counter this nonsense. At least that would have been mildly amusing to any onlookers.
For Crying Out Loud! I don't care if they are the most devout, religious, loving people on the planet, this, from a public relations standpoint, is an absolute nightmare!

Thankfully the convention I usually go to bans all 20th and 21st Century uniforms etc. by reenactors and attendees.

"But, it's history" Well, so is crapping in the woods. Do we need a display of that through the ages?

God bless them, but I would not go to a convention that invited this group – Unless they dressed in powder blue Hermann Goering gear with tutus – then I'd go – if you could get pictures taken with them.

Yesterday was my first SALUTE and my first convention in the UK. It was nice to see people getting into the part, one vendor's staff was dressed as pirates, and another had a guy dressed as a "town crier" to advertise their stand. Some of the folks running games were dressed up. I recall seeing the guys from TwoFatLardies in costume of sorts at their game and there was a woman dressed as a vampire for another game. I did not understand the Star Wars guys but they were not offensive. Re-enactors are fine; why only WWII German SS re-enactors? Why couldn't there have been some Roman soldiers, English Civil War Cavaliers or Roundheads, even WWII British Tommies as a counter point to the SS Germans? There were a lot of non-gamer types in the area, the London Marathon registration was in one part and a large investment conference was taking place across from the SALUTE hall, and these were not gamer types. One of their lasting impressions of gamers will be those SS re-enactors. Re-enactors are OK; just mix it up a bit.

I have to say guys, yes the Hitler youth deal was weird and the parents would have a hard time convincing me they were not Neo Nazis or had those ambitions, also the same for the Waffen SS guys…I would also say in mitigation that I would also find COnfederate re-enacters to be weird, who wants to portray racist biggots who would fight to keep slavery? (I can sense the Stifles already). Ont the other hand would I dress as a member of staerwars or dress in combat trousers (or top hats, leather biker gear and mowhawks even) e.g. para military gear as a fashion statement..nope

Should we take this so far as to ban all Ospreys, miniatures and rule sets which "glorify" the Waffen SS, There was a very nice 1/48th demo near the re-enactors which displayed their real life counterparts as well, if not better than the re-enactors…would you or I ban that…I dont think so (very nice it was too)

so lets move on on this, yes the re-enactors are in poor taste, I am sure the guys who ran Salute wont want to make that mistake again.

The show was good and the demos, participation games and the venue was excellent.

I was at Salute and, at first, was impressed by the quantity and quality of the reenactors' gear. I became a little toubled when I noticed that every single one was in SS-uniform. But then again, many gamers prefer Waffen SS for some obscure reason. If the line had been drawn there and the thing went no further than rigourous reenacting of a elite combat unit, no problem. But kids in HJ-costume complete with daggers? Women in nazi-uniforms? CD's and marching music? This is where military intrest stops and political glorification begins. Please don not do this again.

Well i was at Salute as well and tbh my first thoughts on seeing the SS re-enactors was Cool Uniforms and gear !

Was i upset ? No.

Why ? because things like that can make people actually stop and think. And maybe, just maybe go away and look up what actually happened.

What they then do with that knowledge is up to them. But knowledge is better then ignorance.

If we brushed everything we dont like under the carpet how long would it be before something like the Nazi party exists again ?

Clearly, at this point nothing new can be added to the arguments of either side. However, I just want to say that I am appalled at the idea of putting British school children into the uniforms of the Hitlerjungend. Adults in the uniform of the Waffen SS? Wierd, insensitive, silly, . . .but at least these are adults. Wearing a silly hat can be fun, but Nazi regalia is seductive. It was designed to be. Please, lets not encourage the kids to dress up as hatemongers and mass murderers under the guise of studying history.

I wouldnt have bought a hitler mug… "cooking with hitler" maybe

I said this on the other thread about this, and I still feel strongly about it, so I'm going to say it again here too.

I was deeply offended by the re-enactors at Salute this year. Let me explain why…

1) I can appreciate the amount of time and effort that went into the re-creation of the uniforms and equipment. It was superb, and they looked amazing. I wanted the SdKfz for my front garden! Top marks all round.

But they didn't leave it at the re-creation of the uniforms and the military equipment: if they had, I don't think I would have had a problem.

The problem was that they went past that point and seemed, to me, to be glorifying the soldiers that they represented beyond their military abilities and towards the regime and ideologies that they represented.

Worse than that: they had women and children dressed in nazi uniforms as well. And Hitler mugs for sale! Hitler mugs for God's sake! What the "bleep" has that got to do with wargaming?

I have German soldiers. I have Assyrians, and Romans, and all sorts of other "nasties". But my soldiers represent the military aspect of that particular culture, and not the culture itself. This was beyond that point: it was just plain sick.

2) I agree with the points above about the possible PR consequences of that group being seen at a wargaming show.

We have enough difficulties with the way this hobby is perceived without giving tabloid journalists an excuse for writing stories that could be extremely damaging to the hobby.

Sorry, Salute Organisers, you got this one wrong.

I complained to the Info Desk on the day. I'm complaining again now. It won't stop me coming to Salute again, but it certainly soured this year's experience. Other than that, it was a damn good show.

So, Thurlac et al., it wasn't the fact that they were portraying the SS per se, and I understand and appreciate your point (well made) about the samurai there, it was the fact that, to me, they went beyond an exhibition of the military/wargaming aspects of an SS unit and way too far towards a glorification of the nazi regime and ideology.

And I hope that although you might disagree about how much the re-enactors glorified the nazi regime and ideology, you would agree that glorification of the nazi regime and ideology is a bad thing.

SirG

"My issue is in the idea that the Warlords chose to have only one group of people"

Maybe they could not get hold of other reenacment group and these were the only one available.

If only they'd had the cast of " The Producers " there…

Or a TV showing Mel Brooks greatest film!

Interesting comments from all sides. I do have a question for Thurlac, since he was the most eloquent in his advocating for toleration of inviting the SS group.

If we can't be offended by an SS group because we aren't equally offended by Samurai, Romans, etc, is there any image or presentation that we can be offended by?

What if the Salute organizers invited a group that reenacted Al Qaida, to include dressing their children up as suicide bombers and staging a "reenactment" of a hostage beheading?

What if a group walked around dressed up as the person who just murdered 32 people at Virginia Tech university last week?

For you personally, is there any topic or subject that you judge to be in such poor taste that you wouldn't want represented at a wargame convention?

I know you weren't asking it of me but I'd say that walking around dressed as a student or a random middle eastern person probably wouldn't get noticed particularly would it?

It's a false analogy to compare it to a renactment of a hostage beheading because as far as I'm aware the reenactors at Salute didn't reenact anything never mind an atrocity. Had they had some of them dressed up as Auschwitz prisoners and had a cardboard gas chamber then I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't even have been seen by the public as the Warlords would likely have ejected them with force.

They were simply dressed as a certain type of soldier or other period costunes. Had you taken a walk around Salute specifically looking for much smaller metal versions of those exact costumes you'd probably have found a dozen or two retailers to purchase them from (less for the hitler youth but they do exist so somebody probably had them). I don't believe anyone heard them so much as utter a racial epithet. Again had they been wandering around like the stormtroopers and pretending to shoot jews blacks or effeminate looking men then again they would have been summarily ejected.

Personally I trust that the Warlords, while making a PR error (possibly by not fully checking into what exactly the reenactors would be bringing/doing), have pretty much the same ideas as most sensible people and would not have allowed anything even remotely close to the above from happening.

About the only thing that sounds like something I would have asked them to stop was the selling of promotional merchandise that I found beyond the veil but as I never even saw the reenactors never mind the merchandise then it's hard to comment on that particular part.

This is a really difficult subject. I was at Salute, and at first did not focus on the SS nature of the display. The presentation looked superb, and as many have said, re-enactors can represent many "unsavoury" or "misunderstood" historical groups. Perhaps what matters is how they represent them. Do they try and explain the circumstances which created their subjects, and the merits that they had? Or do they glorify the elements which link them with the evil (if you believe it was. I do) that dominated their nation at that time. My problem was not so much that they recreated the Waffen SS (although I admit an involuntary disquiet), but that it was the Nazi side of the SS which was represented in the commercial aspect of their display. The CDs of Nazi marching songs, the mugs commemorating the Nazi party and personalities, the Nazi flags. They did not come across as merely paying tribute to honourable soldiers, but as glorifying the trivial outward symbology of a hateful regime which still has resonances in politics today. The least I could say would be that their presentation was hopelessly naive, the worst has been said by many others. One image will remain with me for a long time, and caused me much regret. Donald Featherstone, a veteran of WWII, sitting alone at the refreshment area only five yards from the display, and looking completely bewildered. I could not think of anything to say to him. I wonder if the re-enactors could. In my personal opinion, it was a mistake to invite them, and not for presentational aspects or for the good of the hobby. It was the message they gave that was wrong, that evil is excused by smart uniforms and a good tune, and that it is fun to dress up your kids in the uniforms that symbolise that evil. I hope it will never happen again.

Gablenz

I was astonished to see these herberts straight in front of me as I entered. They were described in the Salute Brochure as a WWII Reenactment Group, which is disingenuous to say the least. They are nothing to do with the WarGaming Hobby and were a most jarring aspect of an otherwise excellent Hobby Day. I suspect that the organisation that owns and runs EXCEL were unaware that they were the venue for a Nazi Reenactment troupe, and if I were them I would be asking some searching questions to ensure that they did not appear to condone this silliness. I think that the most outrageous aspects were the gross insult to Donald Featherstone and the manipulation of children in dressing them up as Hitler Youth. I know that less tolerant veterans, such as my late dad, would have done their level best to assault them there and then, and as we all know, they don't like it up em!
Chamberlain

Artemis,

I wasn't trying to draw an exact parallel between the SS/NSDAP display and hostage beheading, but rather was following Thurlac's logic to its conclusion.

As I understood his postings, he wasn't arguing that he personally didn't find the SS/NSDAP display offensive but that it was "silly" (his word, not mine) for anybody to be offended, due to moral relativism.

I believe that we agree that context is everything. How different might our opinions be if:

1) the group did a purely military impression?
2) didn't bring their children into it?
3) didn't sell souvenirs that trivilized the Nazi era?
4) were accompanied by reenactors from other armies or periods?
5) there was a reunion of Hollcaust survivors across the street?
6) and most importantly, didn't link in the public's mind their display with our hobby?

Personally I think the Salute organizers exercised extremely poor judgement in inviting this group to the convention. I would be very interested to hear their perspective.

Jeff

"But the military history of the SS and the men who fought in those units, that MUST be kept seperate from the stigma of nazi germany and the legacy of Hitler!!! The two things are a million miles apart, the problem is that most people can't seperate them. Yet they must be seperated."

No, they really musn't. They are inextricably linked in origin, purpose and goals…as their own documents, actions and history very well state.

Promote whatever factions and organizations you wish, but don't romanticize them and pretend they were something they weren't. The SS, both Waffen and Allgemeine, were Nazi organizations through and through. Pretending otherwise is ignorant at best.

As for kids dressing up as Hitler Jugend and selling coffee mugs and other Hitler paraphenalia, that just makes me sad – another potential generation of brainwashed worshippers of a horrific period in human history.

"One image will remain with me for a long time, and caused me much regret. Donald Featherstone, a veteran of WWII, sitting alone at the refreshment area only five yards from the display, and looking completely bewildered."

That answers my question from another thread. Thank you for that obseervation, Gablenz.

How unbelievably sad. This is a gentleman that should be honored both for his service to his nation and for his iconic contributions to wargaming. And he was left alone to ponder this? What an insult to a fine gentleman.

Allen

Bloody ridiculous. The organiser should be given a swift kick up the arse for letting a lot like that in.

Close minded? When it comes to people in SS uniforms.. you better believe it!

The Sentient Bean said it best.

Well said sir,
Brent

Question for those that were horridly offended. Why didnt you go up to one of em and break their nose?

A punch in the nose is a really neat way of saying "You are offensive!"

In fact did ANYONE say anything about how offended they were to these people at all?

Its not people dressed up in SS uniforms that will cause the rise of another odious regieme like the Nazis. It's a bunch of chickens that even though they know totalitarianism is way gone ed up, they say and do nothing to stop the ing thing before it really gets some legs.

I'm more offended by a pack of whinging nancy pants than I am by a bunch of knobbers in hitler clobber.

"Its not people dressed up in SS uniforms that will cause the rise of another odious regieme like the Nazis."

No, it's idiots who idolize the Nazis and do everything they can to re-write history (including dress, act and promote their 'honorable' works) who will cause the rise of another odious regieme like the Nazis.

"I'm more offended by a pack of whinging nancy pants than I am by a bunch of knobbers in hitler clobber."

I think that's the funniest thing I've read in a long time, and not because of the poster's point. "Knobbers in clobber." Heh. :D

I beg to differ with **No, it's idiots who idolize the Nazis and do everything they can to re-write history (including dress, act and promote their 'honorable' works) who will cause the rise of another odious regieme like the Nazis.**

It's apathy and meekness not a small bunch of fat men in leather shorts with coal scuttle helmets on that is the problem.

The Nazis came to power because not enough people took to the streets and beat the living out of the brownshirts in the early 30's. Then when Hitler became chancellor most people hoped it would be a short lived thing and did nothing to stop it and a bunch more just laughed at his high blood pressure ranting and made the odd wry joke.

I put to you if those smeggers got the snot punched out of em and had the hitlers greatist hits CD inserted into their fat jaxies they would of made the decision that salute was not really the place they would like to come back to next year.

You lot only have yourselves to blame if you didnt like it and yet put up with it.

"Question for those that were horridly offended. Why didnt you go up to one of em and break their nose?
A punch in the nose is a really neat way of saying "You are offensive!"

Maybe, the fact that this didn't happen is illustrating the difference between the target group of Salute (us, wargamers & people interested in (getting into) the hobby) and the people they portray or claim not to be.

Say, if I would have been there and I would have bought a few Hitler mugs and thrown them at this display, what would have happened? I'm sure securety would have thrown me out, but I suppose that would have been historical correct…

I've spoken with Don Featherstone several times decades ago and I can't imagine this (now very elderly) gentleman having been amused. Perhaps the Hitler mugs are a good idea for Salute 2008's free giveway?

Please, do think before you act, Salute organisors.

I was not at Salute.

Costume Balls -- Reenactors or otherwise are NEVER a good idea at a con. In Spokane they hold a convention that gets overrun by Star Trek "reenactors" or what ever they are. In essence, they change the entire focus of the event from gaming to a costume show. The Spokane Event is very much not about gaming and very much about costumes.

Think about it. What do you really want at a gaming convention?

The SS bunch was CERTAIN to create controversy. And I'll bet there was little if any positive publicity that came out of their attendance.

I get enough every year from mothers about my WWI German Aircraft to fill the back of my pickup. The only swastika's on my stuff appear on Verner Voss' Albatros (who was not a Nazi and died years before the formation of the SS) -- and three fourths of the above is acquired from this model alone.

I wonder how many youngsters will not be back at Salute next year because of this "exposure" to the SS.

The comments are probably representative of the population at large. Some will say no big deal but others will be very upset. Is it really worth it?

I guess I should be glad this happened at Salute. Perhaps the rest of us can learn a lesson here.

mjc

My bet would be that the incident was bordering on being illegal if not actually so. As a government employee in a country with a Westminster legal system I regularly do legal compliance courses.
The key point of law is not whether the re-enactors were Nazis but whether others found their uniforms, behaviour etc to be offensive. I know that there were people, from the continent who experienced WW2 first-hand, at Salute who found the incident quite offensive.
The only question that then remains is whether wearing the SS uniforms could REASONABLY be expected to cause offense to a segment of the community. The answer to that is probably a yes.
There might also be a UN treaty which also prohibits popularising the SS.

I now that in my own country the cops would have given them a quiet but strong talking to – such as 'if we come back in ten minutes and you are still here, then we will arrest you.'

"Why didnt you go up to one of em and break their nose?"

Good question, mate. Now, should you have been allowed to enter at Salute , would have you done that when you see them?.

I would not, as I consider reenactors as dangerous as trekkies. I think nazis are more subtle and have changed their symbols.

Everyone have some weak spot that can be offended. In my case I would be offended by ETA terrorists reenactors, but not by SS reenactors.

BTW, your question has remind me that some years ago I punched one of those real neonazis in his nose.

The defence that "These guys are OK because they are portraying GOOD SS rather than BAD SS" is patently laughable.

The SS were the party's soldiers rather than the German nation's soldiers.

They were inextricably linked to the vile philosophy's of the Nazi regime.

The Huitler Youth is the youth wing of the Nazi moveement, in part charged with getting the next generation';s soldiers ready.

The whole thing was despicable.

Did the organisers of Salute, defended by the "Supreme Dalek" and is that ironic or indicative, decide "Well, it's the day after Hitler's birthday rather than they day itself, but hey, let's get out there and party"

At best stupid beyond belief. I'd like to think it was "at best"

We all remember Prince Harry dressing up as a Nazi for one of his wild parties? To me that was bad taste. It was rightly publicised for his lack of understanding.

We've all seen pictures of modern day shaved headed Nazis and we rightly shake our heads with disgust at their intolerance for minority groups.

A group of re-enactors dressing up as soldiers for a wargaming convention? To me that is to be expected. Re-enactors are only interested in portraying a piece of history – not for condoning the actions of who they are portraying.

If we allow re-enactors to dress up as soldiers in their own homes (which we do of course – being a free and liberal country), where else might we allow them to do what they do? How about at a historical wargames related convention?

Not really being into WW2 I honestly didnt even realise they were specifically representing the SS (showed how much interest/offense I took!). There was no shouting of Nazi slogans or 20ft tall Swatiskas. Just uniforms, and bits of military hardware. A living museum exhibition ideal for someone interested in WW2 history.

If your not interested in WW2 history because you find aspects of it offensive, then why go to a wargames show? Theres plenty of model tanks and soldiers there, that might offend you just as equally. If you wanted to you could participate in a game where you play the Germans trying to kill the British paratroopers who have taken a big bridge. Maybe you'd learn something by doing so?

I believe Salute is balanced in giving the opportunity to many different re-enactment groups the Centre stage each year. The show is not however about re-enactment and each year, space limitations generally only allow one side of any conflict to be shown.

For every one person offended there was at least one supporter of what they do (and 6 that couldnt care either way). If thats not the case then the shows questionnaire will surely tell us otherwise.

Next year could we have some French Old Guard?

Did you notice the demonstration outside the convention centre on your way out? Was it against the 'evil facist historical wargamers' that we are all so obviously now tarred as?

No – it was a demonstration against real modern hypocrisy allowing Arms Trade Fairs to be held at the ExCel centre. Far more worthy than the non-issue people here are getting hot and flustered about.

The show questionaires will say nothing – not enough people can be arsed to fill them out. For a lot of people they will not have realised that a lot of people seemed to feel the same way until afterwards. certainly at the time I just thought 'knobheads' (or something similar) and only had a go at the woman with the nazi kid in pushchair and that was only a "mmm nice way to bring up your kid love". It wasn't till I walked out and saw them all outside with the general public that I began to really think it could have been a bad idea PR wise, by the time I stopped being excited with the day and the games and stuff bought and started thinking more deeply about the display it was too late …

At least they didn't do what they did a one reenactment show and have a member of the Division there signing his memoirs – now that could have caused a fight!

Just to add my two Eurocents, I personally found the high profile presence of these SS reenactors offensive and totally out of place.

First of all, because they were all over the place, highly visible and the very first thing to greet you as you went in. Secondly, because the unit portrayed is Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler, one of the Waffen SS units most closely associated with war crimes on the Western Front and the one unit for which the standard line of "simply elite soldiers doing their duty" just doesn't cut it.

I travelled across the Channel for the day and paid money to go to the UK's self-proclaimed premier wargames show and felt like the organisers had shoved this down my throat. If I had gone to the Beltring and found them offensive, I would have no grounds to complain because that event is dedicated to vehicle collectors and reenactors of all ilks. But I didn't go to Beltring, I went to Salute.

As for the group themselves, sure enough they are a very serious reenactment group that has appeared in various films, including Saving Private Ryan. I guess part of the problem is that they do the SS stuff a little too well and a little too seriously, including some of the strutting around.

To be honest, I couldn't care less about their presence if they had chosen to portray bog standard Whermacht landser. Maybe even bog-standard Waffen SS, if there is such a thing.

The trouble is they chose LSSAH, originally formed as Hitler's bodyguard and despite the obligatory warning on their website (http://www.sbg1.mistral.co.uk/) that they are "acutely aware of its controversial portrayal", I can't help getting the impression that they do glorify LSSAH.

If they are only interested in portraying a piece of history and not condoning the actions of those they are portraying, I would expect their potted history of LSSAH to mention the fact that the first action of the unit they portray was to act as death squads during the Night of the Long Knives (OK, they were butchering fellow Nazis but still). I would also expect them not to gloss over the fact that the unit they choose to portray executed 70+ prisoners of war from the Royal Artillery, 2nd Warwickshire and 4th Cheshire Regiments on 27th May 1940. Nor would I expect to ignore the fact that they choose to wear the uniforms of the unit involved in the various massacres of US POWs around Malmédy in December 1944.

Couple that with peddling Nazi-themed memorabilia to raise funds (as opposed to mugs with the name of their group or postcard of their vehicle) and you might begin to understand why some people think their presence was out of order.

Finally, to answer Scurvellian Scurvellious' question, I did not punch them in the face because I am not in the habit of physically assaulting people just because I find them offensive. That's one of the differences between me and the people those reenactors choose to portray.

"In fact did ANYONE say anything about how offended they were to these people at all?"

Scurv, I wouldn't personally give the s the satisfaction. I am sure they already labour under delusions of being put-upon minority group. I satisfied myself with pointing and laughing at them.

And please will the few devil's advocates cut out the crap about it being the same as gaming with SS troops on the tabletop. It takes a much greater level of identification with the subject to be able to wander around dressed up as them. Just give someone a hat in a participation game and see them up the role-play content a hundred percent. These guys have spent countless hours making sure every part of their kit is as authentic as possible.

Salute is my local show but I may well give it a miss next year if the sour taste this fiasco has caused is still there. (I did get to meet Don Fetherstone however which counted for a lot in the enjoyment of my day!)

Peter Merritt asks me to forward the following:

1. Mistake?
You bet! But I actually spoke to the show organisers on the day – it's not what they were expecting. Other WW2 groups were invited (together with nearby museums), but only the Woolwich Rotunda (artillery) lot could finally make it.

2. Hobby Image?
Others are worried about the damage it may do to the image of the hobby. Well, never fear – in close-on 40yrs of gaming at hobby conventions, 'meet-the-public' events and private houses, in my experience this has never varied from (mostly) polite puzzlement, through "…silly…" or "…childish…" (mainly from the distaff end), to "…warmongering…" (from the mainly young adult, politically active end).

But what happens if the press gets hold of it? Why, what always happens with anything (as confirmed by several journalist friends) – the editor concerned will get a spare hack to write something (to fill a certain sized gap on a page), slanted how he says it should go, ideally with an 'anti' quote from an academic or publicity-seeking politico who's always good for a one-liner on any subject at any time of day or night. Then drop it all for the next socially important insight on celebrity rehab.

3. Fewer Children Next Year?
I've run loads of games at conventions, and visited plenty more. I would suggest that, for every parent wishing to "…introduce offspring to their hobby…", there are plenty who have been cajoled in dragging 'junior' along as part of their penance for having the day out (which is why many are dumped on the nearest participation game [i.e. free creche facility] to the show entrance).

Of course, most of the kids I heard talking thought it "…boring…" because – unlike all their PC/box games at home, or dad's DVD collection (which they watch anyway) – there was no 'action'.

I wasn't there, but I've seen SS re-enactors at other places before and it's never bothered me tbh.

I presume EVERY one of you who did go and were offended, immediately made your thoughts clear to the group themselves, AND to the organisers? Or maybe you'd rather post here after the event anonymously?