"A note to manufacturers/suppliers regarding their websites:" Topic

"Sorry guys. No photos and/or samples, then no purchase. I looked up Vendel's site a couple of years ago and there were no photos. I asked for a single sample (one freaking figure) and was told to purchase a couple of his packs. Is that good customer service?
No photos and/or samples, then no purchase. Period."

AR,

But you eventually got the figures, even without photos! I, on the other hand, will wait and only purchase when there are photos.

CC

One more time -- which came first – The chicken or the egg? If they needed pictures they would have them – Most do not.. They apparantly do not care you do not give them your money so why continue to wine on and on? I have noticed vendal has not been wiped off the face of the planet.

I put up 40 more photos last week, and black washed 17 figure packs this week. A photo session is scheduled on Sunday. SCANNING FIGURES DOES NOT PRODUCE AN ACCEPTABLE Website IMAGE. After I take the picture it has to be resized scaled for the website and uploaded.

I do not announce new photos because; invariably, I will be asked "why don't you have more?"

And the answer is:
Our range is over 400 packs, we have over 1400 items with images currently on the website.

We are busy casting, shipping and handling current orders; updating our website, preparing taxes, attending shows, and running a small con, while working our day jobs and hauling a 14 year old to school, and sports.

Most of us recognize that photos and a spiffy website are good things, so would be the luxury of more time

I love gamers, and I do enjoy the hobby, so just post the above on the rant page

Nancy

And if a manufacturer doesn't have photos of a figure, yes they aught to be willing to send a few sample figures

Ok, here's an example of the problems:

'Just chuck 'em on the scanner' (as suggested): picture
This is a newer scanner and it has awful depth of focus for 3 dimensional items, as can be seen. Here is an example of figures scanned on an older SCSI scanner on the Mac: picture Note that these were laid out, scanned, then the scanned image was 'adjusted' to increase the contrast and resized. Sadly, no longer have that scanner and the USB one ihas the same depth problems.

What if you don't resize? Well, then you get this problem: picture

The quick way with vehicles is to just assemble them and photograph them (http://quickreactionforce.co.uk/catalog/images/HFV2.jpg), but the metal tends to reflect the flash or light to give a high polished affect. This also assumes that you have one available and don't need to get the mould and cast one (having spun it a couple of times to warm up the mould first) or break open the pack and repack it after.

To avoid the highlights, better to give them a quick spray of undercoat, making sure you get it all over, wait for it to dry and then photograph it: (http://quickreactionforce.co.uk/catalog/images/GAC01.jpg) Of course you can't then put it back in the pack after.

Even better still is to paint them (http://quickreactionforce.co.uk/catalog/images/BFV13.jpg link but obviously that takes more time, and a bad paint job can be worse than no photo…

Infantry are both easier, and trickier. These were laid out on a sheet of paper and photographed, then split down an resized: picture They are a bit on the dark side – problem of photographing in natural daylight!

Better still is to paint them: picture but that means someone painting them. Again, it all takes time.

My wife painted these beauties: picture They are excellent exmples of the quality of our 15mm ACW figures (and sold for up to £40.00 GBP each on Ebay) but they took her a week to paint. Not sure how long it took Warpainter to paint these up, but I would guess it wasn't a few minutes: picture

So yes, it can be done, but it takes time. not an instant job.

Geoff

I am sure that there will be a few business that have both B&M and Mail order that you will still be able to get them from. This is sounding more and more like the BS that GW tried a few years back. Internet retailer are starting to realize that there is really nothing to the GW threat and are starting to sell on line again.

Front Rank manage to have photos of the entire range. Some are painted, most are not – just undercoated to take teh galre of the bare metal. Surely that is not too hard considering that for most figure manufacturers the internet is their shop window.

That was not my post.

Bitten by the bug!

Brian S: Front Rank may well have plenty of pictures, but it doesn't have a functioning web shop, just an online order form. Is this more or less frustrating in internet terms than a modern web shop that doesn't have a full range of pictures?

You know I was starting to write a long post about how one could take several hundred internet ready photo a day, but then I figured out I was just wasting my time as those who are convinced this can't be done will not listen to me anyway.

So move on here folks, nothing to see.

Me, I'll be over at the web sites with photos buying my miniatures.

I still think what everyone seems to miss is this simple fact -- if it was that mandatory for manufactures to have pictures--- they would?

The quick way with vehicles is to just assemble them and photograph them (http://quickreactionforce.co.uk/catalog/images/HFV2.jpg), but the metal tends to reflect the flash or light to give a high polished affect.

OK on the subject of photographing unpainted metal (which is what should be on the shop because thats what you are selling).

You are quite right don't use flash as that is too harsh. So you photograph using the best light available. My camera has white balance settings and a load of other stuff (with 5 presets) that once I find out what settings make a good picture I set those and I am away. I can use the preset to take a similar photograph next or 6 months from now.

Even if the image is not that good, a little twiddle with photo editing software and you are there.

Let us not forget I set up a page of people willing to do the photography in exchange for product.

3vwargames.co.uk/photos.htm

A website is constantly evolving. At VVV we now have a custom 404 error page, favicon and are now using CSS sheets to make the website easier to maintain in the future.

But in the end it comes down to the choices that the website owners make. If they don't want to have photos, its their choice.

I cannot believe we have another 50 post thread on this!

Now over 60. And not one of them says anything that's not been said several times before.

which is what should be on the shop because thats what you are selling

Probably, but customers don't seem to like photos of unpainted unassembled models, which is what we sell. Much like the food packaging you get that doesn't show the uncooked food that is contained within.

You are quite right don't use flash as that is too harsh

That wasn't flash :-)

we now have a custom 404 error page, favicon and are now using CSS sheets to make the website easier to maintain in the future

You obviously have a lot more spare time than us.

But in the end it comes down to the choices that the website owners make. If they don't want to have photos, its their choice.

There is a difference between 'don't want', and 'haven't yet done'. Please don't confuse the two. I'd love to have a high quality photo of everything we produce. One day (I hope) we will. Other manufacturers may have a different opinion.

Ultimately market forces will prevail. More and more manufacturers are adding online stores and are starting to add photo's of their ranges. As it grows, those who don't bother will ultimately lose out to the nice sites with the photo's and shopping carts. It has happened in every other industry going, and will happen here.

It's a bit frustrating, as a web developer, to find that alot of businesses still view a website as some non-essential part of their marketing strategy, and not something to devote alot of time or money to developing.

With the potential of global markets, and your store effectively being open 24/7, alot more effort should go in to developing e-stores/websites as (if not the main) an important part of your business

Cosmo1974,

I couldn't agree with you more!

Some of the suggestions that some posters have offered, such as calling in the orders, are not practical for me.

I simply will not place an order if I have not seen their range first hand or if I cannot see detailed photos on their site.

I am usually the one in our group to introduce the other members to new figures, which usually means that I have never seen those figures before "in the flesh".

Furthermore, I cannot take time away to see the figures when they are shown at conventions.

Thanks.

CC

Some thoughts as a photographer (amateur)

1. Glare can easily be taken off figures with a quick undercoat, as mentioned previously. And why won't a customer want pre-primed figures?

2. With resizing, lighting, etc, you can easily construct a photo setup with a couple of quid worth of lamps, mirrors and a small table. A tripod and a digital camera with a macro function wouldn't amount to much more. Heck, I photograph my minis on the top of my fridge, with a bedside lamp, a stand lamp and tinfoil reflectors.

2.1. If you get an acceptable setup, then you can easily do several "presets" for different types of miniatures. Considering most manufacturers sell in packs, you could have one "preset" for a batch of 8 28mm infantry, another for 4 28mm cavalry etc etc. And furthermore, once you get your preset right, you can figure out what tweaks you need for that particular preset and just use the "Automate" command (available in Photoshop, but I'm sure free programs should be available as well) to mass tweak all the photos you've taken. Cropping should not be a problem, as long as you frame the initial shot correctly.

Just my 2 cents.

Oh and on another related note, I would have thought photos are of greater importance to Fantasy/Sci-Fi types as compared to Historicals?

I mean, a Redcoat is a Redcoat, you have a solid historical precedent, and any odd details are unlikely to turn up on an unpainted fig, and I will accept that it is too much to ask for manufacturers to put up photos professionally painted figs.

But, as for "Human with blaster rifle", I won't touch something like that with a 10 foot pole if it didn't have a photo…

Of course, painting your figures before posting them on your website may not be the way to go

picture

from here

link

..10 more pics added this week

Geoff
link

[those who don't bother will ultimately lose out to the nice sites with the photo's and shopping carts.]

Or not.

Store 1: Pretty pictures, shopping carts and full list price.

Store 2: No pictures, 25% discount.

Who do you buy from?

Do you look at the pretty pictuers at Store 1, then log onto store 2 to take advantage of the discount?

If your answer is yes, consider the market forces:

Store 1: does not get the sales, but has had the expense of making the pretty pictures (which is one of the reasons why they did not discount.) They go out of business.

Store 2: Did not incur the expense of of pictures, but chose to offer a discount. They thrive.

Now you are left with one store, without pictures, and does not have any incentive to offer a discount.

While we can not possibly picture every thing we sell just due to overwelming numbers. I have put pictures on just about every page of our site and this will continue as time allows. Now on the RLBPS site you can at least get an idea of what the products look like,even if you can't see a picture of each and every cone number.

Bob

@Zarquon

Your reasoning has a problem, because there are two differences between Store 1 and Store 2. Hence, there is a confounding factor in your argument.

- Would people buy from Store 2 if there were no pictures in Store 1?

So consider the following scenarios

P = pictures, p = no pictures, D = Discount, d = no discount

A. If Store 1 P/d and store 2 p/D, then it is only logical to purchase from store 2 if you were aware of both of them, simply because 2 would be cheaper.

B. If store 1 p/d and store 2 p/D, then it would still only be logical to purchase from store 2, as hey, if you're gonna sink money into stuff you can't see, you might as well sink less, right? However, I would hazard that total sales from both stores would be lower than A

C. If 1 P/d and 2 p/d then it would be more likely that people would buy from 1, since if they have to hunt around for photos, they'll buy from the place that they found em. Again, I get the feeling that the total sales would still be lower than A.

D. If 1 p/d and 2 P/D then I wouldn't even take a second look at 1. No pictures and no discount? Hell no…

E. If 1 P/D and 2 p/D then it would be more likely that someone would purchase from 1, with a similiar reason to C. However, total sales should logically be greater than A.

F. If 1 P/D and 2 P/d then 2 would lose out to 1.

Following this convoluted chain of reasoning, then the following conclusions can be reached.

1. Having a discount will increase sales.
2. Having photos will increase sales if no one is offering a discount.
3. Having photos AND a discount will increase sales.
4. Having photos and no discount is just stupid.

However, these merely apply to retail outlets. For a manufacturer.

1. Having a discount will undercut your own retailers, and would be bad for business.
2. Having photos will increase the sales of all those retailers offering a discount, and increase your overall sales.

I think this is the most logical path… *looks confused*

Following this convoluted chain of reasoning, then the following conclusions can be reached.
1. Having a discount will increase sales.
2. Having photos will increase sales if no one is offering a discount.
3. Having photos AND a discount will increase sales.
4. Having photos and no discount is just stupid.

Which just goes to show that, ultimately, what people really want is a discount.

Of course the other option not considered is to just offer reasonable pricing in the first place, rather than higher pricing and discounts left, right and centre… which is what we have tried to achieve. We have even deliberately taken a smaller markup (larger discount) on trade sales to the US than normal to help support our products over there and keep prices down on certain items.

…For a manufacturer.
1. Having a discount will undercut your own retailers, and would be bad for business

It restricts the probability of a manufacturer ofering a direct sale, as all you do is upset your retailes and distributors by encouraging people to cut them out of the loop. Problem is, once you stop the sale the retailers aren't so convinced they want your product if you are willing to cut their sales off like that.

The positive side is that it increases brand awareness so helps in the long-term, but it's a (possibly expensive) pain for the retailer short-term.

2. Having photos will increase the sales of all those retailers offering a discount, and increase your overall sales.

If you check our main retailers/distributors, you will find they either have no photos, or are using ours.

I think it is fairly well established that no manufacturer thinks that photos are unnecessary. It is quite easy to recognise, especially with a higher proportion of sales being internet/mail order based, that photos will (probably) help sales.

However, given that the vast majority of wargames companies are small affairs, run part-time or on a shoestring budget (with possibly one or two exceptions) a degree of understanding is needed that photos may not be able to happen instantaneously.

Hmm…

There may be a business opportunity for wargamers with decent amounts of time and a camera to run around doing photography for lead…

@Geoff

What would the effect be if you encouraged your retailers to offer discounts, but still offered direct sales from your own website at a "MSRP"?

Would the increased sales offset the lack of sales on your side?

There may be a business opportunity for wargamers with decent amounts of time and a camera to run around doing photography for lead…

An issue already raised. I can't speak for every manufacturer, but we ouldn't afford to give away that much lead!

What would the effect be if you encouraged your retailers to offer discounts, but still offered direct sales from your own website at a "MSRP"?

It would probably work out that we couldn't afford to cast them

Would the increased sales offset the lack of sales on your side?

Probably not, as the profit margin would then undercut the cost of production and prevent us from having any money to continue to develop new models… and everyone always wants new models.

GeoffQRF,

Even clear and zoomed photos of unpainted minis might work.

Actually, I prefer to see what the figures will look like just the way I will get them, unpainted. Some manufacturers go great lengths to show highly detailed paint jobs but, when you get the figures, the detail is nowhere on the figure.

CC

Some manufacturers go great lengths to show highly detailed paint jobs but, when you get the figures, the detail is nowhere on the figure.

That's because if you put up unpainted figures customers then complain that they can't see the detail that may not show up in the unpainted figure, and then don't buy them – see also my previous comment re 'serving suggestion'. When's the last time you bought food that showed the unprepared food on the outside of the pack?

Then again, some manufacturers over-emphasize the detail to an amazing extent – rivets the size of dinner plates (or bigger!), panel breaks that would scale up thicker then my thigh. Think of a rivet that is 20mm across. Now reduce that to 1:100 scale… it wouldn't be visible. I am always cautious about comments that start, "just look at the detail…" ;-)

Geoff

(More piccies going up this week)

Geoff
link

Actually, I am surprised we do not see more third party sites that show miniatures and do figure reviews like Spanner and Yank did/DBA Resource page etc.. Perhaps the TMP could provide an area where we gamers could send in their pictures of different manufacturer minatures they have and these pictures could all be compiled in one area.

For plastic, Hat Industies have a fantastic site.

hat.com

My own site is also building up quite nicely, though it can be a bit difficult keeping up. It would be useful – and I'm sure a lot of other manufacturers will agree – for people to send in their own pictures. Certainly, I'll publish any Garrison pictures on my galleries.

garrisonminiatures.com

This is a copy and paste from another posting running a couple of postings awy from it. Oh yeah, I should mention that many of my pictures are with the figure description as well as the gallery, most of the unpainted ones are just with the figure description.