Help support TMP


"Masks don’t work" Topic


34 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

Remember that you can Stifle members so that you don't have to read their posts.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Science Plus Board


Areas of Interest

General

Featured Hobby News Article


Featured Link


Featured Showcase Article

The Amazing Worlds of Grenadier

The fascinating history of one of the hobby's major manufacturers.


Featured Workbench Article

Deep Dream: Full Metal Katie

We tried getting an AI to 'paint' a mini – but can it convert a person into a mini?


Featured Profile Article

Jot Arrow Magnets

Do you need direction in your wargaming?


1,990 hits since 2 Aug 2021
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

USAFpilot03 Aug 2021 10:51 a.m. PST

Science shows masks aren't effective:

April 2020. University of Illinois. On Respiratory and Infectious Disease.
"Face masks have no effect in everyday life. Neither for self-protection nor protection for third parties."

May 2020. Meta Study by the CDC. On Pandemic Influenza.
"Face masks have no effect either as personal protective equipment or as source control."

May 2020. Published in the New England Journal of Medicine. Entitled: "Face masks offer little to no protection in everyday life."

July 2020. Oxford Center for Evidence-Based Medicine. "There is no evidence for the effectiveness of face mask for the prevention of infection or transmission."

October 2020. A large, randomized control trial (8,000 participants), published in PLOS-1, "Face masks do not seem effective in laboratory confirmed viral respiratory infections nor against clinical respiratory infections."

November 2020. A Danish randomized control trial. (6,000 participants). Published in Annals of Internal Medicine. Found: "No statistically significant effect of high-quality medical face masks against SARS-2 infection in a community setting."

November 2020. A Cochran Review. Found that: "Face masks did not reduce influenza-like illnesses. Neither in the general population nor in healthcare workers."

February 2021. The European CDC. Review. "No high-quality evidence suggests for the effectiveness of non-medical or medical face masks in the community." The European CDC actually advised against using N95 masks by the general public.

The American CDC admitted they do not have any randomized control trial that supports face mask mandates for Covid-19. This is the response the CDC gave to a FOIA request for randomized control trials supporting the use of face masks for Covid-19: "We are not aware of any."

Even when surgeons wear face masks in surgery, studies have concluded it does not reduce post-operative bacteriological infections.

Science shows that face masks may actually lead to an increase in infection.

2015. British Medical Journal, the MJ Open, found that cloth face masks were actually penetrated by 97% of particles and may increase your rate of infection because moisture is retained in the mask, and we re-use masks without washing them. (Or wear them too long.)

Confirmed in August 2020. A review by a German professor of virology and epidemiology found that there is no evidence for the effectiveness of face masks and that the reality of the fact is that we don't use face masks properly.

In real-world scenarios across countries around the world, cases and fatalities increased after face masks were mandated. In U.S. states with and without mask mandates, there is no difference between them in the rate of cases and fatalities. In Kansas, 90 counties without mask mandates had lower rates of cases and fatalities than the 15 counties with mandates.

September 2020. Report from CDC. Shows that the majority of the people in the study who contacted covid-19 had been wearing a mask in public. 70% of the people who tested positive always wore a mask.

Covid-19 is transmitted by aerosols: fact. It is not transmitted by droplets, as we were told by the CDC at the beginning of the pandemic. (Influenza and other corona viruses are not spread that way.) Masks do not filter aerosols. Studies show that 90% of particles escape from masks within minutes and spread around the entire room.

Researchers from the University of Minnesota have found that the infectious dose, the viral load, needed to transmit the disease is 300 virions. Just speaking for one minute can generate 750,000 virions, which makes face masks ineffective in stopping the spread of Covid-19.

In order for face masks to protect against these viral aerosols, a mask must fit perfectly. Just a 1% gap around the edge of a mask, allows 50% of the virions to bypass the mask. A 2% gap, which is still unrealistic, allows 75% of the virions to bypass the mask.

Aerosol Science in 2021 published a study that the masks we typically wear, the cloth masks, have a 90-95% leakage rate. If we fit our masks perfectly, what would happen to us? We would seal ourselves off, we would risk asphyxiation.

Mask mandates are political, not scientific.

To this day, the only randomized control trial where they compared in an equitable environment two groups of people, in a community setting, found no statistically significant benefit. However, politically, this study was stifled. Three medical journals refused to publish this study. The actual publication of this study was delayed for months because these journals feared political repercussions.

The World Health Organization admitted in June 2020, that face mask recommendations were the result of political lobbying as told to a BBC medical correspondent. He said, "We have told by the various sources, (the WHO committee members reviewing the evidence) that they had not backed masks, but they had recommended them due to political lobbying." This point was put to a WHO official who did not deny it.

What about all those studies which show that face masks work? Most, if not all, of those studies are simply flawed. Combing through the methodology of these studies, underlying assumptions and laboratory settings skew their statistical data, and they can make a statement of result which flies in the face of actual science.

A meta-study published by the WHO published in the Lancet Medical Journal stated that masks could lead to a reduction in infection or risk of infection with Covid-19. But in looking at the study, it only looked at N95 masks in a hospital setting, not surgical grade masks, and certainly not cloth masks, and not in a community setting. The level of strength in its recommendation was so low, a World Health epidemiologist said this study was essentially useless. (Except for the media which said it supported wearing paper and cloth masks in public.)

Commissioned by PMAS, another study found that masks (as they claimed) lead to a decrease in infections or did lead to a decrease in infections in three global hotspots. The flaw in this study, centering on the outbreak in New York, did not account for any natural decrease in death rates as the epidemic spread among the elderly. Because they did not account for the normal sine curve function, 40 scientists called for this study to be withdrawn, but that fact was not published when the study was cited.

Another study done in the United States that was actually withdrawn after it claimed that counties with mask mandates had lower infection rates. However, after the study was published, the infection rates in those counties climbed higher than unmasked counties. We only heard about that study when it was first presented, but not afterwards when it was withdrawn.

In June of 2021, in Nature Communications claimed that masks reduced infection rates by 62%. However, looking at their methodology, this study relied on self-reported online surveys. There is no verifiable data base on which to base that statistical conclusion. It's not even a scientific sampling.

In a large, well-controlled study looking at post-operative wound infections, where half had masked surgeons and half did not, where they found that masked surgeons had a 4.7% post operation infection rate and non-masked surgeons had a 3.5% post operation infection rate.

At the Royal Society of Medicine in the United Kingdom, which also said that masks were ineffective in source control, that in this particular setting, was a well-known fact before Covid-19 became a political issue.

Masks don't work.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian03 Aug 2021 11:08 a.m. PST

At the Royal Society of Medicine in the United Kingdom, which also said that masks were ineffective in source control, that in this particular setting, was a well-known fact before Covid-19 became a political issue.

Hmmm…

Cloth face coverings are effective in reducing source virus transmission, i.e., outward protection of others, when they are of optimal material and construction (high grade cotton, hybrid and multilayer) and fitted correctly and for source protection of the wearer.

PDF link

Personal logo Dan Cyr Supporting Member of TMP03 Aug 2021 1:55 p.m. PST

I guess the PDF link says you are wrong.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP03 Aug 2021 4:26 p.m. PST

Technically, you can't be wrong when you present non-scientific sentences out of context (and without the links to provide context) from a hodge podge of studies that don't have consistent contexts, including presenting information later on that countermands the relevance of your earlier information (like saying COVID is aerosol transmitted when you start with a list of studies about droplet transmitted diseases).

For something to be wrong, it needs to be coherent first.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian03 Aug 2021 8:31 p.m. PST

On the other hand…

"We know today that many of the face cloth coverings that people wear are not very effective in reducing any of the virus movement in or out," Osterholm, the director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, said.

link

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP03 Aug 2021 9:38 p.m. PST

As the Late Great Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again."

Ed Mohrmann04 Aug 2021 6:12 a.m. PST

This 'debate' is rather like watching a tennis
match – but of course NOT as entertaining…

USAFpilot04 Aug 2021 11:56 a.m. PST

I loved President Reagan. He would certainly see what a bunch of nonsense this entire pandemic episode is over a virus you have over 99% chance of surviving.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP04 Aug 2021 3:33 p.m. PST
Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP04 Aug 2021 5:24 p.m. PST

a virus you have over 99% chance of surviving.

I'm impressed with your detailed knowledge of everyone at TMP's personal medical history.

You can side with the Biden administration on this if you want. Your prerogative. However, if you are going to use the word "science" in your first sentence, I recommend you actually read a study or two.

Political decisions and scientific decisions are different things, made on different types of criteria.

Tumbleweed Supporting Member of TMP04 Aug 2021 7:34 p.m. PST

"He would certainly see what a bunch of nonsense this entire pandemic episode is over a virus you have over 99% chance of surviving."

I don't think Ronald Reagan would have casually dismissed the slow death of more than 600,000 human beings.

rjones6905 Aug 2021 2:14 a.m. PST

Covid-19 is transmitted by aerosols: fact. It is not transmitted by droplets, as we were told by the CDC at the beginning of the pandemic. (Influenza and other corona viruses are not spread that way.) Masks do not filter aerosols. Studies show that 90% of particles escape from masks within minutes and spread around the entire room.

Your statements on the aerosol and droplet transmission of COVID-19 are false.


Covid-19 is transmitted by aerosols: fact. It is not transmitted by droplets, as we were told by the CDC at the beginning of the pandemic.

That statement is false.

COVID-19 is transmitted both by large respiratory droplets (i.e., > 20 microns in diameter) AND by aerosol particles (diameter < 10 microns).


Masks do not filter aerosols. Studies show that 90% of particles escape from masks within minutes and spread around the entire room.

That statement is false.

A multilayer cloth mask (which is the type of mask recommended by the US CDC) will block the release of 50-70% of aerosol particles:

"Multi-layer cloth masks block release of exhaled respiratory particles into the environment, along with the microorganisms these particles carry. Cloth masks not only effectively block most large droplets (i.e., 20-30 microns and larger) but they can also block the exhalation of fine droplets and particles (also often referred to as aerosols) smaller than 10 microns; which increase in number with the volume of speech and specific types of phonation. Multi-layer cloth masks can both block up to 50-70% of these fine droplets and particles and limit the forward spread of those that are not captured. Upwards of 80% blockage has been achieved in human experiments that have measured blocking of all respiratory droplets, with cloth masks in some studies performing on par with surgical masks as barriers for source control."

Source with attribution:

link

(Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), "Scientific Brief: Community Use of Cloth Masks to Control the Spread of SARS-CoV-2")

Wolfhag Supporting Member of TMP06 Aug 2021 11:51 a.m. PST

You can't come to a real scientific conclusion until the data is collected and research is done. The experts can't tell us what they don't know yet.

I think in 5 years after all of this is over we'll get a better idea of what is true, false or real. Until then people will believe whatever narrative fits their agenda.

Nothing appears to be 100% effective. Even at 99% effective eventually that 1% will get to you. Some scientists say natural immunity is best but they can't determine who has it and who does not.

Wolfhag

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP06 Aug 2021 3:51 p.m. PST

True, however we have decades and decades of research on vaccines, respiratory protection, bio mechanisms of virii, contagion mechanisms (a specialty of mine from a bioweapons and modeling and simulation standpoint), mRNA treatments, and a host of other related topics.

We don't have a decades long knowledge of SARS-CoV-2, but we are not starting from zero.

The big gap is asymptomatic transmission. Which is a hard nut to crack. It is made more difficult by effective vaccines.

As we all know from elementary school, vaccines are not a D&D magic shield that repels microorganisms or a SciFi set of nanobots that blast them out of the sky before they get to you. A vaccine trains your immune system to detect and eradicate a foreign organism faster. With COVID-19, that means you can get infected, spread the disease for a few days and never show symptoms (instead of showing symptoms late in the infection), so no one knows to put you as an active contact in the tracing effort.

Ed Mohrmann06 Aug 2021 4:27 p.m. PST

A person trained in Virology (Duke Hospital) told me
that, technically, none of the countermeasures are
vaccines (the definition of vaccine does not fit any
of them).

Does that make any difference in any regard ?

Even if not, what, technically, should these be
called, since 'vaccine' is apparently not correct
and 'medication' doesn't fit either.

JSchutt06 Aug 2021 5:49 p.m. PST

The definition of Vaccine has been toyed with like so many other words we thought we knew. People historically trusted the notion of vaccines… so in the interest of compliance they decided to call it a vaccine so it would fly under the radar of scrutiny. The Vaccine is really an mRNA treatment that relies on an entirely different method to create it. It teaches cells how to create proteins that triggers immune response to achieve a specific result. Not how a Vaccine is created. Research more on your own. As for me… not interested. I'll take my chances with natural immunity till more is known about autoimmune diseases.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP07 Aug 2021 3:03 p.m. PST

The definition of Vaccine has been toyed with

A vaccine is a stimulant to the immune system to learn to create specific antibodies. mRNA has been used to do this for over a decade of cancer treatments. And they have been called vaccines, because medically, they are vaccines.

BTW, only two of the three current faccines are mRNA, the other is a viral vector.

words we thought we knew.

I assume this is from the vast number of medical texts you have read. "Everybddy" also knows that wargaming glorifies violence, leads to fascist mentalities, and lack of bathing.

Not how a Vaccine is created.

Nothing in the definition of a vacccine details how you create it.

They don't make automobiles the same way they did when the term was coined, so obivously they are not automobiles. Wait … an automobile isn't defined by how you make it, its defined by what it does.

The wargame you play wasn't made the way wargames were when the term was coined (either in German or English). You obivously aren't a wargamer.

And, of course, you're not reading this or posting on a computer. (Please contradict me by telling me you're doing it on a phone …)

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP08 Aug 2021 1:57 p.m. PST

The word "vaccine" comes from the Latin word for "cow", "vacca".
It was noted that milkmaids never got smallpox. They instead got the much less virulent cowpox. Having gotten cowpox, they were virtually immune to smallpox.
With not too many cows to go along, it was found that scratching smallpox blisters and scratching the human with this puss resulted in the subject a much less severe case. Usually.
Do we want to go back to swapping puss, just to keep the original definition? I'm more than happy to call mRNA jabs a "vaccination".

The whole fuss about mRNA reminds me of visiting elderly maiden aunts in the 1950s. They were nodding their heads and knowingly talking about "isotopes" and how evil they were.
So, in my not so humble opinion, anti-vaxxers ranting about mRNA are about as knowledgeable as we're Aunt Agnes and Aunt Beatrice.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP08 Aug 2021 4:03 p.m. PST

When I was a kid, moms did (upon doctor recommendation) a similar gig with chicken pox. If a kid got it, moms would bring their kids to be exposed. Having the chicken pox for a few days was much more benign than several of the other pox you could gat.

ScottWashburn Sponsoring Member of TMP09 Aug 2021 5:10 a.m. PST

So all those doctors and nurses who have been wearing face masks during surgeries and with at-risk patients for over a century have been wrong all this time?

deephorse09 Aug 2021 9:10 a.m. PST

So all those doctors and nurses who have been wearing face masks during surgeries and with at-risk patients for over a century have been wrong all this time?

Wrong about what? Please be specific.

14Bore09 Aug 2021 4:16 p.m. PST

Survived a year and a half as maskless as possible, so lucky or maybe something else.

Tony S10 Aug 2021 6:12 a.m. PST

Something else. Like it's been said a million times by the intelligent media, science and doctors, masks don't protect the user.

By going maskless, that means when you do get Covid, it's extremely likely you'll spread it, especially the Delta variant.

Masks protect others. They stop the spread of the disease. They don't protect you. If you haven't gotten sick, then thank those that do wear masks, and have gotten double vaccinated.

Tumbleweed Supporting Member of TMP14 Aug 2021 5:39 a.m. PST

+1 Tony S

Last Hussar14 Aug 2021 2:21 p.m. PST

"99% survivable"

Just 3 million dead Americans then.

machinehead Supporting Member of TMP14 Aug 2021 3:46 p.m. PST

Meh, 3 million is a small price to pay for me me me and my freedumb.

USAFpilot14 Sep 2021 4:32 p.m. PST

College football returns with full stadiums of thousands standing side by side unmasked. Not a peep from the media. I guess some pigs are more equal than others.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP15 Sep 2021 4:56 a.m. PST

+1 Tony S

Tumbleweed Supporting Member of TMP15 Sep 2021 9:23 a.m. PST

If you don't want to wear a mask because you're afraid it will not protect you, why not upgrade to a NIOSH-approved chemical cartridge mask with removable filters?

If you're not willing to do that, the efficacy of the mask isn't the problem.

Personal logo McKinstry Supporting Member of TMP Fezian15 Sep 2021 9:25 a.m. PST

Not a peep from the media.

A quick search shows just about every media outlet has done a story on stadiums and Covid.

How about Forbes?

link

The LA Times?

link

ESPN?

link

Sergeant Paper22 Sep 2021 4:24 p.m. PST

You can't stop a guy* with an axe to grind… he isn't here to debate, he's here to proclaim his opinion again and again.

At this point, I don't understand why Bill hasn't punted this repeat offender, its the same kind of biased never-ending posting that has got folks kicked off the page plenty of times before.

Even if he were right, eventually you have to consider how the message is delivered, and letting him stir the pot like Baba Yage on a road trip is doing NOTHING to make TMP better or further rational discussion.

What GOOD does he bring to TMP, Bill, to offset the incessant drumbeat of misinformation and stirring of rancor?


*You are free to imagine whatever pronouns you prefer throughout this rant, I suppose our villain doesn't actually specify…

Personal logo Dan Cyr Supporting Member of TMP22 Sep 2021 7:37 p.m. PST

+ 1 Sergeant Paper

Bill's claim to protect "free speech" has done lots of damage to TMP's reputation with some.

Allowing the steady stream of anti-this and anti-that is not motivating hobbyists to come here.

deephorse24 Sep 2021 12:15 a.m. PST

Well said Sergeant Paper and Dan Cyr. It's been shown time and time again that he just doesn't understand the science behind some of the links he posts, and that many are not saying what he thinks they say. His credibility went a long time ago, though there is a certain entertainment value.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.