"Masks don’t work, says the science" Topic

Stanford study quietly published at NIH.gov proves face masks are absolutely worthless against Covid
The diapers most of us are wearing on our face most of the time apparently have no effect at stopping Covid-19. This explains a lot.

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Did you hear about the peer-reviewed study done by Stanford University that demonstrates beyond a reasonable doubt that face masks have absolutely zero chance of preventing the spread of Covid-19? No? It was posted on the the National Center for Biotechnological Information government website. The NCBI is a branch of the National Institute for Health, so one would think such a study would be widely reported by mainstream media and embraced by the "science-loving" folks in Big Tech.

Instead, a DuckDuckGo search reveals it was picked up by ZERO mainstream media outlets and Big Tech tyrants will suspend people who post it, as political strategist Steve Cortes learned the hard way when he posted a Tweet that went against the face mask narrative. The Tweet itself featured a quote and a link that prompted Twitter to suspend his account, potentially indefinitely.

That old canard again?

It works because it stops the wearer spreading Covid – a cough or sneeze doesn't travel a tenth of the distance it would without a mask thereby reducing the 'Kill radius' of the sneezer/cougher. It's not a defence for the wearer breathing in, it's a defence for everyone around the infected wearer who is breathing out. And because we don't know who is infected the sensible assumption is to treat everyone as if they are infected.

Your scientists should try talking to a physicist. It's really easy to understand.

Truth hurts huh 20th Maine

Why are all canards old, are there no young canards?

Masks are a pain in the …. face.
My glasses fog, until I get the fit exactly tight.
If I have coffee for breakfast, I can smell it. Ditto a tuna sub.
If I sneeze, it's disgusting.

But, guess what. I'm a Real Man. I'm Tough. I can take it.

I reject your "scientists". They're ideologues, catering to a mind set. And I'll bet that their "studies" have been misinterpreted. Badly.

Don't take my word for it, follow the data. :-)

" Texas COVID Cases Drop to Record Low Nearly Three Weeks After Mask Mandate Lifted". -Newsweek

link

Even liberal Bill Mayer sometimes gets it.
YouTube link

I was walking around a major US city last week enjoying the sunny spring day, not wearing a mask, and couldn't believe all the lemming walking around outside with their masks on. I just smiled as I enjoyed breathing the fresh air.

It works because it stops the wearer spreading Covid – a cough or sneeze doesn't travel a tenth of the distance it would without a mask thereby reducing the 'Kill radius' of the sneezer/cougher. It's not a defence for the wearer breathing in, it's a defence for everyone around the infected wearer who is breathing out. And because we don't know who is infected the sensible assumption is to treat everyone as if they are infected.

That makes sense and theoretically, it should work. However, masks do not "stop" the wearer from spreading it, it decreases the chance of spreading it if you have it. That means if someone has Covid and is wearing a mask and you are around them sooner or later you'll get it. Nothing is 100% in stopping a virus.

Add to that how often you are around people that are not wearing masks, like immediate family, roommates, etc in the same living space that may not be wearing a mask 100% of the time. Masks may slow the spread. How much? Who knows? Even if it stops 99% sooner or later that 1% will get you, it's just a matter of time.

What concerns me is that the virus is here to stay and will mutate. That means a vaccination every year, just like other flu viruses which means there will be people that want to maintain the mask and distancing mandate for the foreseeable future.

Wolfhag

You guys are still debating masks and worrying about Covid – how last year!

So I read the study. I found it singularly unconvincing. In fact, it really reminded me of my assignments in university -- propose a hypothesis, and find all of the references to support what I was saying.

I think I lost it at the point where it was pointed out that surgeons wearing masks had trouble breathing.

Here are a couple of counter studies – link link

@wolfhag – I think we agree that wearing a mask reduces the kill radius/probability of someone else catching from an infected person.

Where we would diverge is "Even if it stops 99% sooner or later that 1% will get you, it's just a matter of time".

If mask wearing means that I catch a potentially fatal disease (and lets face it with the age/weight/health profile of wargamers fatal is quite likely) in 3 or 6 months time rather than tomorrow then, you know what? I'll have those 6 months. Think of all the figures I could get painted…..

It's published in Medical Hypothesis. A pay to play (1850 USD per article) open publishing journal that publishes a highly formalized form of spitballing ideas and allows authors to claim dibs on said idea. From the Journal's guide for authors (bold mine):

The purpose of Medical Hypotheses is to publish interesting theoretical papers. The journal will consider radical, speculative and non-mainstream scientific ideas provided they are coherently expressed.

Medical Hypotheses is not, however, a journal for publishing workaday reviews of the literature, nor is it a journal for primary data (except when preliminary data is used to lend support to the main hypothesis presented). Many of the articles submitted do not clearly identify the hypothesis and simply read like reviews.

These notes are designed to help authors formulate an article for Medical Hypotheses in such a way that the article is clearly distinguishable from a review. These are guidelines only and the Editor is happy to accept other formats provided that the principal requirements are met.
link

This paper brings nothing new, rehashes discredited ideas from 8 months ago and is basically a long oped that cherry picks a few sources.

Condoms are only 98% effective, does that mean we stop using condoms? I have not had a automobile accident in 10 years, which means my car insurance is 0% effective. Should I cancel my car insurance? It comes down to risk assessment, how much risk are you willing to live with.

And yet..
"Texas COVID Cases Drop to Record Low Nearly Three Weeks After Mask Mandate Lifted". -Newsweek

How do you explain that?

Vaccinations. 23% fully vaccinated, 35% at least 1 shot.

3 Million cases already in a population of 29 Million – so more than 1 in 10 have had it and will have some current immunity.

50,000 Dead. Texas has already killed a lot of those most likely to die.

I just spent 3 weeks walking around South Carolina without a mask, no problems.

In fact, I really haven't changed my life much in last 14 months or so, still got together with friends and played games, visited sites from Maine to Georgia (drove up and down East coast) and out to Tennessee for 3 weeks (Nashville, July/August when it was a "RED" zone, ohhhh, scary), Ohio and Kentucky.

Never got sick.

Wore my mask, because I had to, not because I wanted to.
I washed my hands often, because I always do.

A few family members caught it (over all 5 or 6), most sick for 3 to 4 days then better. One said it wasn't as bad as Mono from freshman year.

One family member passed, rest in peace, Uncle Tom. Tom was mid/late 70's with other medical issues.

Another Aunt Carroll, age 84, had a sore throat for 4 days. Nothing else.

I understand that you can die from Covid, it is dangerous, but I think this thing was way over blown.

Just a test run to control the masses……and it worked.

Eclectic Wave,

I guess with my medical issues I would have a 4% death rate on average from Covid from info I read.

In my decades of game playing I have ALWAYS taken a shot with a 96% chance of success.

That was a stat / risk I was willing to live with.

Now that stat on condoms being 98% effective, maybe people should wear condoms over their heads as it appears more effective than masks.

I can think of several people who it would be perfect for them to pull a condom over their heads. Perfect fit for their personalities.

567000 Dead in USA from Covid.

32 Million cases of Covid.

Population of USDA 330Million.

So, 1 in 10 of population caught Covid, 1 in 582 of population dead from Covid.

Therefore any individual will likely know of only a few cases. Unless they live in a real hotspot (like a big city).

And that was with – masks, social isolation, closure of shops, working from home. And vaccination of more than 100 million people.

What's hard (for me) to comprehend is how doing nothing would have reduced the number of cases, reduced the number of deaths? It couldn't.

I'm glad you never got sick – but really that's akin to saying "I smoked 40 a day and never got cancer so it can't be that harmful". The truth is smoking causes cancers. Some individuals will get away with it, but that doesn't change the overall statistics.

Texas, NO masks, cases go DOWN
Michigan, masks, cases go UP

New York, lockdown, kills elderly in nursing homes
Florida, no lockdown, no nursing home scandal

Conclusion
"The existing scientific evidences challenge the safety and efficacy of wearing facemask as preventive intervention for COVID-19. The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19, supporting against the usage of facemasks. Wearing facemasks has been demonstrated to have substantial adverse physiological and psychological effects. These include hypoxia, hyper- capnia, shortness of breath, increased acidity and toxicity, activation of fear and stress response, rise in stress hormones, immunosuppression, fatigue, headaches, decline in cognitive performance, predisposition for viral and infectious illnesses, chronic stress, anxiety and depression. Long-term consequences of wearing facemask can cause health deteri- oration, developing and progression of chronic diseases and premature death. Governments, policy makers and health organizations should utilize prosper and scientific evidence-based approach with respect to wearing facemasks, when the latter is considered as preventive inter- vention for public health."

My opinion: For the next 5+ years they'll be discussing how science, health officials, and politicians handled the pandemic and what worked and what didn't (masks, lockdown, vaccine, social distancing, etc). In fact, a strain of Covid 19 will most likely be with us for years with people needing a flu vaccination every year just like in the past.

On a positive note, I've read the longer a virus stays in humans the less deadly it becomes, no sense in killing off your host if you can just suck the life out of him. The variable is how much "Gain of Function" was mutated into the Covad 19 before it got loose and was any of it modified in the lab in the US or China. I think any predictions will end up being wrong.

Two years ago my daughter moved from CA to TN with her two grade-school daughters. They were about 1.5 years behind when they enrolled in TN. The schools in TN have been open most of the time since last August. Most of the CA public schools will have lost another year because of the lockdowns. To a large degree, when the CA education system goes back to school the kids are going to be even further behind and the teachers will have no choice to drop the standards and pass students even though they should be held back. This will hurt the ones who need the help the most.

Wolfhag

I would suppose a comparison between areas with and without mask restrictions would help demonstrate the validity of wearing them.

Yet a month and a half later, newly identified coronavirus cases in Texas have fallen by more than 50%, and daily deaths have dropped even more.

Meanwhile, states with stricter COVID-19 regulations have seen spikes in daily new cases.

link

Many healthcare workers tend to COVID patients all day, every day, and don't get COVID themselves. Either they are magic or masks work.

But it turns out mask-wearing is actually a skill. Professionals are trained in it and tested, and sometimes they fail the test and have to train more. The Dunning-Kruger effect means that we all, who mostly don't have the training, think that mask wearing is simple and that there's nothing to it. Of *course* we're going to think that.

The recent Texas/Michigan experience definitely shows that we have a *lot* more to learn about how to prevent the spread of these pandemics. We need to set aside all the tribalism about whose team was right all along and sincerely, open-mindedly, try to figure out how to mitigate these viruses. Because there is 0% chance that this is the last one, even if this one were gone forever tomorrow.

I have no confidence we will set aside our prejudices, but it's what we need to do.

Scientists are now saying that we will never achieve "herd immunity" because of the self-entitlement of the FREEEEEDOMMMM! omodhauns who won't get the vaccines or wear masks.
I for one intend to stay alive. I won't say what I wish would happen to the saboteurs.

I do not intend to get the vaccine on moral grounds. I do get flu vaccination. I wear mask when it is required. I worked as a nurse for 40 years. Most masks are not like the ones we wore for airborne diseases, they required test fitting etc. So a bandana mask is just a spit shield in effect. John I really take offense to your seemingly disregard for others feelings about masks & vaccination.
Paul

Offense noted, and disregarded.

General debunk by Dr. David Groski AKA Orac
link

And the AP showing that this "study" isn't in any way affiliated with Stanford.
link

The study's author, Baruch Vainshelboim, is listed in the study as being affiliated with the cardiology division at the Veterans Affairs Palo Alto Health Care System/Stanford University.

However, a representative for the VA Palo Alto Health Care System told the AP in an email that Vainshelboim does not work there. "I can confirm this person is not one of our physicians," wrote Michael Hill-Jackson, a public affairs specialist with the system. "I do not see him in our system and our Cardiology team has never heard of him."

Vainshelboim also does not work for Stanford, according to Julie Greicius, senior director of external communications for the university's medical school. "Stanford University has never employed Baruch Vainshelboim," Greicius wrote in an email to the AP. "Several years ago (2015), he was a visiting scholar at Stanford for a year, on matters unrelated to this paper."

Vainshelboim, who lists himself on LinkedIn as a clinical exercise physiologist and does not list any current employment, did not respond to a request for comment.

It's a shame that trashy websites who publish anything sent to them exist.
NOTE: For the FREEEEDOMMM shouters, I did not say "are allowed to exist". I was merely decrying their existence.

These sites are filled with cranky nonsense written by fringe "authorities" with no credible peer review.
They only exist to confirm crank views.

They only exist to confirm crank views.

And to sell advertisments or subscription fees.

Personally I am with the OFM on this.

Damon.

Will I regret asking why the flu vaccine is morally ok, and the covid vaccine is morally not ok?

Interesting aside – covid restrictions have meant that a lot of the world didn't bother to have a flu season this year….in the USA "About 2,000 cases have been recorded since late September, according to data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In recent years, the average number of cases over the same period was about 206,000. "

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a lot of the world didn't bother to have a flu season this year…

How is this even remotely possible?

You count everything as Covid, that's how. If you don't have a diagnosis via test but symptoms fit, call it Covid.

If a person is listed as dying from Covid the payout to the hospital administration was higher than from other forms of death.

So, even car crash victims that tested positive for Covid were listed as Covid deaths.

a lot of the world didn't bother to have a flu season this year…
How is this even remotely possible?

Flu vaccination take-up was much higher.

And – funny thing – social distancing, masks, and improved hand hygiene are all ways to cut flu transmission as well.

If a person is listed as dying from Covid the payout to the hospital administration was higher than from other forms of death.

So, even car crash victims that tested positive for Covid were listed as Covid deaths.

According to Factcheck.org, there was no credible evidence of fraudulent reporting on COVID cases: link

Damon.

Ya, cause Factcheck and Snopes and all the other "fact" checkers are reliable.

Ok. Not like those sites have shown themselves to be bias in reporting towards accepted management goals.

Do the "fact" checkers need "fact" checkers? Where does it end?

I heard this not from some lying news media or the above listed supposed "fact" checkers, but directly from several professionals in medical administration in different states.

What is "reported" and what really happens are two very different things.

At the very least you can follow up on the research sources cited in the article. I can't do that when your source is some "professionals in medical administration."

Damon.

I didn't read the article.

Don't really care, mask / no mask.

Only commenting on personal events that I have experienced.

"14 days to flatten the curve". ;-)

+14!

(Mind you, it looks like Texas and Florida have not just flattened, but reversed the curve by opening up and eliminating masks and other restrictions.)

When it becomes illegal for Doctors, politicians and Medical Researches to invest in drug companies and Medical Equipment manufacturers I'll take their opinions a lot more seriously. Dying of Covid… or with Covid statistics are tainted by personal experience because of false positives, profiteering and incompetence…. frankly embarrassing.

Awesome!! I will tell your surgeon or nurses if your in the ICU not to waste time wearing a mask when interacting or operating on you!! That will shave a few bucks off your hospital bill.

Inari7, big difference between a doctor wearing a mask as he is leaning over your body on the surgery table which he just opened wide up, and a healthy person walking around outside with a totally useless mask on. But you knew that already, I hope.

Useless mask is a useless mask, your doctor does not need one I guess…….. Why wear it if it's useless! But I guess they do work when it's your body….. But you know that already! LOL

Let me guess, you wear your mask when driving your car.

When it becomes illegal for Doctors, politicians and Medical Researches to invest in drug companies and Medical Equipment manufacturers I'll take their opinions a lot more seriously. Dying of Covid… or with Covid statistics are tainted by personal experience because of false positives, profiteering and incompetence…. frankly embarrassing.

What about all the evidence from outside the USA – you know countries with socialized medicine, and more sick people only means more work for the same pay? Are they just part of the long-con on Americans?

You know an argument is lost when the "whatabout" argument and Intentional reading comprehension problem dialects are wheeled out…

You know an argument is lost when the "whatabout" argument and Intentional reading comprehension problem dialects are wheeled out…

LOL

Accurate call.

Jealousy is not a virtue…..

Nether is pride.