"The Police Are Gaslighting Us" Topic

link

Night after night, Americans peacefully exercising their Constitutionally-protected rights are being brutalized by police in cities and towns across the country. Millions of people have watched phone-shot videos of cops pushing down protesters, shooting them with rubber bullets and pepper spray balls, and kicking them over. We see it happening with our own eyes, but police and elected leaders are telling us not to believe what we're seeing:

• In Buffalo, police said a 75-year-old-man—who was walking alone doing nothing when he was pushed over by a cop, hit his head on cement, started bleeding from his ears, and was ignored by a group of a dozen officers—"tripped and fell."
  
• In Manhattan, the New York Police Department said that an essential delivery worker who was arrested for the crime of doing his job after curfew could have been lying about his job.
  
• In DC, Park Police said that an Australian media crew that was sitting down and filming a protest when they were bashed with riot shields "were not readily distinguishable from violent protesters."
  
• In Erie, Pennsylvania, police pepper sprayed a woman who was sitting down. She covers her eyes with both of her arms. A cop then kicks her in the face.
  
• In Los Angeles, the LAPD shot a homeless man in a wheelchair in the face with a rubber bullet. A photo of the man's bloodied face has gone viral; the LAPD has declined to comment.

These are just a few of the incidents I remember seeing off the top of my head, that have been seared into my brain as I and others have watched, horrified.

[…]

The implicit argument behind body cameras was that if only the authorities—police commanders, prosecutors, judges, politicians—had some way of seeing what victims of police violence alleged, they would be able to do something about it. But the last week has proven what skeptics argued all along: The issue was never that the authorities couldn't see police misconduct. The issue is that they never want to, and they remain just as willing to lie in the face of evidence we've all seen with our own eyes. It turns out cops don't care if they're being filmed, and with the people in power willing to lie for them, why would they?

Plenty to go around. Throwing rocks, lighting fires, and looting buildings is peaceful protest.

Really the "Vice"? Might as well post the anarchist agenda

You left out the senior cop in Philly who cracked that girl in the head for very little.

Actually the Buffalo thing is worse because the other policemen are supporting pushing that man over and a lot of their families are protesting the treatment of those two Buf. cops.

Unh, the News is not showing a lot of cops who are being very patient with the protestors either. They are getting targeted right now and it is often hard to tell which guy in a hoodie threw what.

These demonstrations aren't just about the police; far from it but the police are paying the price of frustration right now and I sympathize with them. A lot of them are going to get sick too.

Remember that it's police unions which are the perpetrators of the "no retreat, no surrender" when it comes to police liability and arrest techniques. A lot of those union jack-holes want to prove they're fighting for the police when they may be fighting against their own interests.

LOL. The exaggerated rhetoric of twisted spin, distortions and lies about the police is so outrageous. The problem is that we need to build more prisons to hold all these scumbags walking around looting and burning.

The problem is that we need to build more prisons to hold all these scumbags walking around looting and burning.

At what point is enough enough? The US has more people in the criminal justice system than the USSR had in their gulag system. link At what point do more prisons turn into the final solution for the inner-city problem?

Similarly, in response to The Great Migration, the only line-item in host Midwestern and North-East cities is the police budget. PDF link
Part of that is indubitably due to racism (El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz was correct that civil rights legislation alone wasn't sufficient for racial equality), but the other part is the hammer fallacy. Since Police is the only department that can get more appropriations, they get more responsibility, even if they aren't the proper response to somebody having psychological problems or any other forms of distress that does not need armed response. Actually that's the main point behind the defund the police movement, that is to say get police to do more policing, and less occupying minority neighborhoods.

Please keep the discussion apolitical, thank you.

Another chart…?

Right now the main stream media run by the ————- party of China is so absurd it's not worth watching, let alone commenting on. However, on this matter I will. Recent calls to defund the police are so absurd we need to look at where that road really leads.

I am the first one to admit that the police need to be publicly accountable. In Surrey the local mayor has launched a campaign to fulfill his election promise to form a municipal police force over the RCMP so that it is more accountable to local needs and concerns. I completely support that. Yet when a————- make calls to defund the police it does cause me to roll my eyes.

We've been through this all before. I support law and order. "Caring About the Climate Crisis Means Supporting the Demand to Defund the Police." GMA-B. Greta Thurnberg is a ————- not an environmentalist. If the whacked out a————- and c————— gave a rat's —- about the environment they would be supporting natural gas but they're not because they don't care about the environment they care about c———— [politics]. That's what Agenda 21 is.

A————- look for opportunities to fight with the police because they support lawlessness. The tent city on the Surrey strip was like the rape camp at Oppenheimer park in the DTES. They said they were protesting for social housing but when the Province called their bluff and gave them social housing they still refused to leave. That exposed their real agenda which had nothing to do with social justice. They were simply promoting lawlessness and they were teaming up with the C————- because slavery to them was their endgame.

If you defund the police then the looters can run free and steal as much as they want.

We need to blance the extremes.

What happened to George Floyd was outrageous. Yet that does not excuse looting and it certainly does not mean that what the C———— party of China did at Tienanmen square and are doing in Hong Kong is acceptable because it's not. C———— is the Mother of all Lies because they will lie to every social group to try and trick them into fighting for them so that you will hand over all your civil liberty to them.

C————- claims that you have to give up individual rights to support collective rights. That is a lie. Once you give up individual rights, there are no collective rights. This is George Orwell 1984. The media is not objective. It is brainwashing us with the lies of S————. 2020 is the new era where we can clearly see that. It is a tale of two cities. These are the best of times or the worst of times, depending on how we react to it. Will we question the narrative?

Funding the police to take away civil liberty is a bad investment. Funding the police to stop looters, crime and anarchy is not. We find peace and justice by balancing the extremes.

Martin, the very premise of your cartoon is wrong at the very start. The police were not started to stop strikes, slave uprisings, or indigenous rights. The first police force was formed in London in 1829. If you took the time to read something other than obvious propaganda you could easily find why they were formed, (law and order and to keep the military out of civil life) Here are the original principals he demanded of his police: link

Why do we have so many people in jail? Because it stops them from committing more crimes. It's why are crime rate is so low. Want to see what happens when you don't incarcerate criminals? Take a look at NY City. After passing the no-bail law they've apprehended the same person two or even three times a night committing the same crimes.

Want to know what a city with no police force looks like? Have a look at Detroit. A complete disaster.

The first police force was formed in London in 1829.

I am aware of Sir Robert Peel.

Why do we have so many people in jail? Because it stops them from committing more crimes. It's why are crime rate is so low.

Correlation is not causation. Aggressive policing via the broken windows program has problems, since it can't explain the drop in crime in cities that didn't adopt the practices.

For my money, the explanation that best fits a majority of the data is the leaded gas hypothesis. I'm not saying that this is the only factor (and neither do the authors), but this has the advantage of having leaded gasoline levels explain the spike AND decline in violence worldwide. This is explained by the strong correlation between the introduction and government mandated phase-out of leaded gasoline with a ~20 year lag.

Synthesis by Kevin Drum with a whole bunch of links to recent papers

Hey Martin As a fellow Canadian I would respectfully suggest that you refrain from your continual commenting om American legal and political issues They don't need suggestions from foreigners who have no direct stake in the process. We should be focusing on solving the problems in our own country

Why do we have so many people in jail?

Simple answer…

Some individuals just turn out to be scumbags who would rather; steal, kill, rape & sell illegal drugs instead of being law abiding.

Since many do not want to treat them as they should be treated they have decided to put them behind bars where they learn to be worst scumbags.

But as Bill has pointed out this subject belongs over on The Blue Fez.

Oh and lead has nothing to do with individuals turning out to be scumbags.

+1 Redblack (I'm from USA)

deleted.

Thank you Redblack.

Very possible the 75 year guy from Buffalo was a operative pulling a act while trying to steal electronic information.
The man was swiping his phone as close to the policeman on his right as he could get. The push from the policeman in his front didn't look to be equal to what his reaction was. He was double masked and that could mean a few things pertaining to his apparent 'injury' as he seems to be fine and well talking on his phone immediately afterward.

Some individuals just turn out to be scumbags who would rather; steal, kill, rape & sell illegal drugs instead of being law abiding.

You left out killer vigilantes and rogue cops

Since many do not want to treat them as they should be treated they have decided to put them behind bars where they learn to be worst scumbags.

How "should" they be treated?

Oh and lead has nothing to do with individuals turning out to be scumbags.

I does seem like some people have a natural talent for this.

@14Bore

I have heard that ANTIFA is hiring old people to set the police up by engaging with them and then attempt suicide. The funds are paid out to their families.

I does seem like some people have a natural talent for this.

Yes, it certainly does.

As well as a 60s radical today would be in his 70s

We see it happening with our own eyes, but police and elected leaders are telling us not to believe what we're seeing:

Well, no, they're telling you that you can't understand a situation by looking at specific, selected parts of the narrative out of the entire context.

When you can demonstrate by filling a 32 oz water bottle with urine in a few seconds, I am willing to discuss the possibility that people didn't come to the event prepared to assault the protective forces.

If the people who have legitimate concerns that they want to air want to focus on a solution, focus on the people starting the assaults, not the people responding to them.

How "should" they be treated?

Want to know come over to the Blue Fez but in short I would not be putting them into prisons.

A bit terrifying if Im honest but maybe it'll send a shot across some other police union bows.

link

@Mithmee

I think I get the gist now. Thanks.

Let them get rid of it.

Minneapolis would not be a safe city to travel to.

Plus I would bet many of that City Council would find that they are easier to get rid of then the Police Force.

Oh and it looks like they do not have that power and would have to get a City wide vote to change the charter.

All it would take would be a very short period of time if the police were defunded.

Try it. See how you like it.

Some people really like the taste of boot leather.

The elderly gentleman in Buffalo had been given a lawful order, (to leave the area), which he chose to ignore. The officers on the riot unit did what they had been ordered, (clear the area), in the manner they had been trained to do so. You use riot batons to push protesters back. The first line passed him by, (which is when the video usually stops), and the second line provided medical treatment. The officers acted within policy and training, which is why the entire team quit when the two officers wee suspended. I imagine that large numbers of the Buffalo PD are looking for other jobs right now. If you do everything right and your employer won't support you because they're scared of the mob, you won't want to work there long.

It is unfortunate that the gentleman was injured, but he chose to create the confrontation and is suffering the effects of his decision. Age does not make you innocent.

As for the drivel about police being racists, and people liking the taste of boot leather; I invite any of you who are so critical to apply to your local PD and make the world a better place by placing your life on the line. You can get rid of the imaginary systemic racism yourself. So far 20 officers have been shot during these protests and 600+ injured.

The long term effects of demonizing the police, as has been done recently, will be in lower quality recruits, less officers on the road, less proactive policing, and officers avoiding certain neighborhoods unless called there. It will make things very bad for the honest citizens, (those not throwing Molotov cocktails, or who lost their life savings when anarchists burned down their businesses).

I just came back to work after a week of vacation, (which I had planned to spend with my family). I had to come in five of the six days I was off to work protests. Only one went bad, when agitators and looters who don't live in the area drove here to try to burn down an outlet mall. We were fortunate in that we had good intel, some from minorities who didn't want to lose their livelihoods, and were able to break up the groups as they tried to form before moving into the mall. I stopped out with people who drove 40 miles to be part of the planned riot, which had been orchestrated on Twitter and Face Book.

Oh and this is doing wonders for the sale of guns.

Well, according to my relatives who survived through a fascist invasion of their homeland, defunding the police and trying to establish different standards for the application of the law to people based on ethnicity is definitely a known path.

As for those who are really gaslighting:

Description: Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment, often evoking in them cognitive dissonance and other changes including low self-esteem.

It seems the only attempt at this has been with the use of charts…

Many of you may have missed the peaceful individual who set up some class 3 fire works mortars on the street in Columbus Ohio and fired on the police. Or the 15 Col Ohio police officers who were pelted with rocks, FROZEN water bottles, and water bottles filled with gasoline who had to be sent to the hospital from the peaceful protest. And less than 5% of the arrests made were of people from outside the area. So when you see an officer, thank him for doing his job and following his training. They put their lived on the line every day of the week to protect us from those peaceful people. And, Dn Jackson, thank you for what you do sir. Stay safe and stay healthy. TIG

On a slight tangent – why the term 'gaslighting'?

I don't see the connection between an outdated method of illuminating streets and houses, and what seems to be some form of psychological abuse?

It is a term that they are using to

I don't know why you're making such a big deal out of this…" Psychologists use the term "gaslighting" to refer to a specific type of manipulation where the manipulator is trying to get someone else (or a group of people) to question their own reality, memory or perceptions.

I dont fault policemen for this; they dont set policy. And these protests are about a lot more than some police brutality, it's frankly blending a lot of factors dont have anything to do with the police. However, it's true, the policemen are unfairly taking the brunt.

Anyway, it's not too late for some of the police unions to make concessions. Otherwise it looks like they have a revolution on their hands. It's odd that police unions often have an ideology rather than a desire to serve the community.

Remember that inflexibility can cause an ideology to become eradicated. A little give can ensure survival.

Excuse my complete ignorance – do the police in the USA perceive themselves (or are perceived) as a ‘force' or, as we are encouraged to view them in the UK, as a ‘service'?

It's a subtle but very important difference in practice.

RE: gaslighting. Originally comes from the movie "Gaslight". A husband attempting to convince his wife that she is crazy to get her out of the way.

Thanks T1G.

Basha – The simple answer is – yes. Not to be flip but we're both. Generally police departments and sherriff's offices are considered law enforcement agencies. However, there are all sorts of services provided by each department.

For instance; I work for a relatively small agency with 115 sworn personnel. Discounting administration, training, command staff, etc., we have about 100 working officers divided into four broad units.

1. Patrol – we're the biggest unit, around 50 officers, and do what most people think of when they think of police work. We respond to calls for service, patrol neighborhoods, make traffic stops, work crashes, look for wanted persons, investigate minor crimes, etc.

2. Traffic Unit – four officers who do mainly traffic enforcement and investigate serious crashes.

3. Investigations – 20 officers/Investigators, who investigate serious crimes

4. Community Service Unit – 12 officers who do security surveys for anyone who requests one, provide school resource officers, liaison with businesses to get emergency contact numbers, find out about owner concerns, etc., talk with civic groups, do ident a child, reach out to religious groups and underprivileged kids with programs like 'Ice cream with a cop' 'Color with a cop', etc.

5. Finally the lines blur with special teams. These are teams officers join for various reasons. We have a Highway Safety Taskforce, (does traffic enforcement and DUI patrols), SWAT, Crisis Negotiations,(previously called Hostage Negotiations), Honor Guard, Peer Team, Dive Team, Marine Patrol, Tactical Field Force, (riot squad), Fatal Crash Team, ATV Team,(primarily for search and rescue), and Chainsaw Team, (primarily to keep roads clear during hurricanes and snow storms).

I am on CNT, Honor Guard, HSTF, Fatal Crash Team, TFF, Chainsaw Team, and ATV Team.

The thing to remember about law enforcement in this country is that it is a local thing, or state controlled at the highest level. So there are 50 state agencies and thousands of local ones. So the philosophy that guides them varies from department to department.

Hope this helps.

That's very informative, thanks. Unfortunately, over here (UK) the tendency to ‘rebrand' our police as a service rather than an enforcement agency has been accompanied by a growing level of disrespect for them – we shouldn't have to fear our coppers but they do deserve to be respected and, as a general rule, obeyed.

You might have seen recent footage from Bristol, in which a mob of protesters (a high proportion being white, privately educated, trust fund pseudo-anarchists rather than the real thing, I suspect) tore down the statue of an 18th century slave owner/trader in the city and dumped it in the harbour?

On this occasion, the police (rightly) stepped back and did not intervene – the violence that would have resulted would play right into the hands of the anarchists – but they should still follow up, arrest and prosecute those that are responsible – that's the enforcement side of our "policing by popular consent" approach.

I'll not broach the subject of removing statues, as I'm aware it's a contentious subject ‘over there' but I will say that, on reflecting on the issue, I was quite surprised at the conclusions I came to – certainly my opinions have changed in the last 20+ years – perhaps that's greater maturity as I don't think I've mellowed very much!

Removing statues is fine. It's easy to clean up after with the exception of the "skilled demolition experts" that routinely harm themselves in the act.

Burning down buildings, looting stores, and assaulting people requires an immediate response.

Martin wrote: "I am aware of Sir Robert Peel."

Then why did you post what is clearly a propaganda piece?

This is the third time in the last few weeks Martin that you've shown what I can only assume to be your true colors. When it was pointed out that the pandemic models were way off you defended them saying that you shouldn't trust a single model, while telling us repeatedly that we have to believe the global warming models. You were one of the ones defending the hydrachloraquin study that turned out to be bogus because it was in The Lancet. And now this. At this point I can only assume your positions are based on politics, not science.

Basha, I did see that footage, and was appalled. No person in history is going to live up to modern morality. I can only assume the reason for tearing down statues is to separate us from our history. If we forget our past our future can be molded in such a way that we end up trying failed social experiments over and over again.

I have nothing but respect for police in the UK. Even though I work in a relatively quiet jurisdiction, there's no way I'd do this job unarmed. My hat's off to them.

Dn

Since last week, many local authorities have announced reviews of historic monuments under their jurisdiction. The statue of another prominent slaver, the builder of the West India Dock in East London, has already been removed (or "torn down" as the preferred sensationalist press prefer to put it) from outside the museum on the site. It's a dangerous precedent to set, with all many of historical characters being condemned by those with an agenda out of hand, without a balanced objective take on their contribution to our nation – Sir Francis Drake, PM William Gladstone, Cecil Rhodes, Captain James Cook, even Sir Horatio Nelson are in the firing line.

I suspect the whole raft of Victorian Imperialist Generals will be in the firing line before long. It's silly but serious at the same time, will be incredibly divisive and ultimately do nothing to address the real social and racial inequalities this should be all account.

Thanks for your words on the police force – they are truly the ‘thin blue line', stuck between a rock and a hard place. Inevitably they get things wrong sometimes, individually and institutionally, and there's a few thugs in uniform who give the rest a bad name but the (limited) corruption and thuggery of the 60/70's depicted in contemporary TV shows was never as bad as some claimed and, again, was symptomatic of the time – as with the statues, you can't simply judge historical events by modern mores.

Interesting times indeed!

Removing statues is fine

Except for when it ends up probably end up killing someone, which happened here:

link

If this individual dies all that were involved should be arrested and tried for murder.

" Rioters in Philly deface a statue of Matthias Baldwin, an early abolitionist who fought against slavery 30 years before it ended."

They don't even know what they are defacing or pulling down. They just want to destroy property. You can't fix stupid.

That is mob mentality.

Saul Alinsky would be happy.

"they are truly the ‘thin blue line', stuck between a rock and a hard place. Inevitably they get things wrong sometimes, individually and institutionally, and there's a few thugs in uniform who give the rest a bad name but the (limited) corruption and thuggery of the 60/70's depicted in contemporary TV shows was never as bad as some claimed and, again, was symptomatic of the time – as with the statues, you can't simply judge historical events by modern mores."

Couldn't agree more. Its become obvious to me that all this has next to nothing to do with righting wrongs or creating better practices. Its about gaining and maintaining power. Television shows that portray police in a positive light are being canceled, (COPS and PD Live), even a children's show with a police dog, (Paw Patrol), is under pressure to remove the character because it shows police in a positive light. In the long term this will lower the quality of recruits we get which will lead to more problems as our job gets harder and more dangerous. In turn police will stop being proactive to avoid getting in trouble and low income neighborhoods, where we're needed most, will suffer even more crime.

The truth means nothing since any poor/illegal activity by officers is used as an excuse to create more hatred for us. If you asked most people, even on this forum, how many unarmed black men are killed by American police a year, the answer would be 'hundreds' based on the rhetoric of protesters and the media. In 2019 there were nine killed by police. Seven were assaulting the officer and, in two cases, the officer was arrested/charged.

"Interesting times indeed!"

I'd always heard that this was an old Chinese curse. 'May you live in interesting times.' :-)

There are all sorts of agendas being played out over here – the (legitimate) revulsion at the death of Mr Floyd has been largely forgotten and degenerated into arguments about the appropriateness of statues and atV shows – a useful distraction from the real issues of social and racial inequality we need to confront ‘over here', which suits those that seek to sow further divisions between us or, indeed, want to maintain the status quo by making a few meaningless gestures.

It's also diverted public attention away from the way the Government is handling the pandemic – we're now all too focused on whether particular episodes of "Fawlty Towers" should be banned, as if that's going to change anything.

The justifiable outrage at Mr. Floyd's death is being used as cover by people who want to change western civilization to resemble the now defunct Soviet Union. It's sad how many groups are being silenced by these thugs.

And very telling how the mainstream media (MSM) outlets are supporting them.

If this individual dies all that were involved should be arrested and tried for murder.

Well fortunately for everyone the militia groups look like they're going to start shooting unarmed protestors over statues of Foreign dudes. Nothing says law and order like paranoid vigil antes shooting unarmed citizens, err…"communists", err… citizens.

link