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"What Experts Are Saying About the Wuhan Virus Response" Topic


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wmyers27 Mar 2020 5:11 p.m. PST

The statement:

They? The President, [other world leaders], Vice President, Congress, NIH,CDC all 50 Governors, [Word Health Organization, media personalities] virtually every medical professional on the planet [social networking memes]? If THEY are all of generally one accord, what does it say about someone not on board?

is in line with everything the mainstream media and politicians seem to be telling us.

Or is it?

Dr Sucharit Bhakdi link is a specialist in microbiology. He was a professor at the Johannes Gutenberg University in Mainz and head of the Institute for Medical Microbiology and Hygiene and one of the most cited research scientists in German history.

What he says:

We are afraid that 1 million infections with the new virus will lead to 30 deaths per day over the next 100 days. But we do not realise that 20, 30, 40 or 100 patients positive for normal coronaviruses are already dying every day.

[The government's anti-COVID19 measures] are grotesque, absurd and very dangerous […] The life expectancy of millions is being shortened. The horrifying impact on the world economy threatens the existence of countless people. The consequences on medical care are profound. Already services to patients in need are reduced, operations cancelled, practices empty, hospital personnel dwindling. All this will impact profoundly on our whole society.

All these measures are leading to self-destruction and collective suicide based on nothing but a spook.

YouTube link


Dr Wolfgang Wodarg link is a German physician specialising in Pulmonology, politician and former chairman of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. In 2009 he called for an inquiry into alleged conflicts of interest surrounding the EU response to the Swine Flu pandemic.

What he says:

Politicians are being courted by scientists…scientists who want to be important to get money for their institutions. Scientists who just swim along in the mainstream and want their part of it […] And what is missing right now is a rational way of looking at things.

We should be asking questions like "How did you find out this virus was dangerous?", "How was it before?", "Didn't we have the same thing last year?", "Is it even something new?"

That's missing.

YouTube link


Dr Joel Kettner link is professor of Community Health Sciences and Surgery at Manitoba University, former Chief Public Health Officer for Manitoba province and Medical Director of the International Centre for Infectious Diseases.

What he says:

I have never seen anything like this, anything anywhere near like this. I'm not talking about the pandemic, because I've seen 30 of them, one every year. It is called influenza. And other respiratory illness viruses, we don't always know what they are. But I've never seen this reaction, and I'm trying to understand why.

[…]

I worry about the message to the public, about the fear of coming into contact with people, being in the same space as people, shaking their hands, having meetings with people. I worry about many, many consequences related to that.

[…]

In Hubei, in the province of Hubei, where there has been the most cases and deaths by far, the actual number of cases reported is 1 per 1000 people and the actual rate of deaths reported is 1 per 20,000. So maybe that would help to put things into perspective.

link

link


Dr John Ioannidis Professor of Medicine, link of Health Research and Policy and of Biomedical Data Science, at Stanford University School of Medicine and a Professor of Statistics at Stanford University School of Humanities and Sciences. He is director of the Stanford Prevention Research Center, and co-director of the Meta-Research Innovation Center at Stanford (METRICS).

He is also the editor-in-chief of the European Journal of Clinical Investigation. He was chairman at the Department of Hygiene and Epidemiology, University of Ioannina School of Medicine as well as adjunct professor at Tufts University School of Medicine.

As a physician, scientist and author he has made contributions to evidence-based medicine, epidemiology, data science and clinical research. In addition, he pioneered the field of meta-research. He has shown that much of the published research does not meet good scientific standards of evidence.

What he says:

Patients who have been tested for SARS-CoV-2 are disproportionately those with severe symptoms and bad outcomes. As most health systems have limited testing capacity, selection bias may even worsen in the near future.

The one situation where an entire, closed population was tested was the Diamond Princess cruise ship and its quarantine passengers. The case fatality rate there was 1.0%, but this was a largely elderly population, in which the death rate from Covid-19 is much higher.

[…]

Could the Covid-19 case fatality rate be that low? No, some say, pointing to the high rate in elderly people. However, even some so-called mild or common-cold-type coronaviruses that have been known for decades can have case fatality rates as high as 8% when they infect elderly people in nursing homes.

[…]

If we had not known about a new virus out there, and had not checked individuals with PCR tests, the number of total deaths due to "influenza-like illness" would not seem unusual this year. At most, we might have casually noted that flu this season seems to be a bit worse than average.

– "A fiasco in the making? As the coronavirus pandemic takes hold, we are making decisions without reliable data", Stat News, 17th March 2020

link

This is just the beginning.

wmyers27 Mar 2020 5:20 p.m. PST

Dr Yoram Lass link is an Israeli physician, politician and former Director General of the Health Ministry. He also worked as Associate Dean of the Tel Aviv University Medical School and during the 1980s presented the science-based television show Tatzpit.

What he says:

Italy is known for its enormous morbidity in respiratory problems, more than three times any other European country. In the US about 40,000 people die in a regular flu season and so far 40-50 people have died of the coronavirus, most of them in a nursing home in Kirkland, Washington.

[…]

In every country, more people die from regular flu compared with those who die from the coronavirus.

[…]

…there is a very good example that we all forget: the swine flu in 2009. That was a virus that reached the world from Mexico and until today there is no vaccination against it. But what? At that time there was no Facebook or there maybe was but it was still in its infancy. The coronavirus, in contrast, is a virus with public relations.

Whoever thinks that governments end viruses is wrong.

– Interview in Globes, March 22nd 2020

link


Dr Pietro Vernazza link is a Swiss physician specialising Infectious Diseases at the Cantonal Hospital St. Gallen and Professor of Health Policy.

What he says:

We have reliable figures from Italy and a work by epidemiologists, which has been published in the renowned science journal ‹Science›, which examined the spread in China. This makes it clear that around 85 percent of all infections have occurred without anyone noticing the infection. 90 percent of the deceased patients are verifiably over 70 years old, 50 percent over 80 years.

[…]

In Italy, one in ten people diagnosed die, according to the findings of the Science publication, that is statistically one of every 1,000 people infected. Each individual case is tragic, but often – similar to the flu season – it affects people who are at the end of their lives.

[…]

If we close the schools, we will prevent the children from quickly becoming immune.

[…]

We should better integrate the scientific facts into the political decisions.

– Interview in St. Galler Tagblatt, 22nd March 2020


Frank Ulrich Montgomery link is German radiologist, former President of the German Medical Association and Deputy Chairman of the World Medical Association.

What he says:

I'm not a fan of lockdown. Anyone who imposes something like this must also say when and how to pick it up again. Since we have to assume that the virus will be with us for a long time, I wonder when we will return to normal? You can't keep schools and daycare centers closed until the end of the year. Because it will take at least that long until we have a vaccine. Italy has imposed a lockdown and has the opposite effect. They quickly reached their capacity limits, but did not slow down the virus spread within the lockdown.

– Interview in General Anzeiger, 18th March 2020

link


Prof. Hendrik Streeck link is a German HIV researcher, epidemiologist and clinical trialist. He is professor of virology, and the director of the Institute of Virology and HIV Research, at Bonn University.

What he says:

The new pathogen is not that dangerous, it is even less dangerous than Sars-1. The special thing is that Sars-CoV-2 replicates in the upper throat area and is therefore much more infectious because the virus jumps from throat to throat, so to speak. But that is also an advantage: Because Sars-1 replicates in the deep lungs, it is not so infectious, but it definitely gets on the lungs, which makes it more dangerous.

[…]

You also have to take into account that the Sars-CoV-2 deaths in Germany were exclusively old people. In Heinsberg, for example, a 78-year-old man with previous illnesses died of heart failure, and that without Sars-2 lung involvement. Since he was infected, he naturally appears in the Covid 19 statistics. But the question is whether he would not have died anyway, even without Sars-2.

– Interview in Frankfurter Allgemeine, 16th March 2020

link

wmyers27 Mar 2020 5:27 p.m. PST

Dr Yanis Roussel et. al. https://twitter.com/yanisjgr?lang=en – A team of researchers from the Institut Hospitalo-universitaire Méditerranée Infection, Marseille and the Institut de Recherche pour le Développement, Assistance Publique-Hôpitaux de Marseille, conducting a peer-reviewed study on Coronavirus mortality for the government of France under the ‘Investments for the Future' programme.

What they say:

The problem of SARS-CoV-2 is probably overestimated, as 2.6 million people die of respiratory infections each year compared with less than 4000 deaths for SARS-CoV-2 at the time of writing.

[…]

This study compared the mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2 in OECD countries (1.3%) with the mortality rate of common coronaviruses identified in AP-HM patients (0.8%) from 1 January 2013 to 2 March 2020. Chi-squared test was performed, and the P-value was 0.11 (not significant).

[…]

…it should be noted that systematic studies of other coronaviruses (but not yet for SARS-CoV-2) have found that the percentage of asymptomatic carriers is equal to or even higher than the percentage of symptomatic patients. The same data for SARS-CoV-2 may soon be available, which will further reduce the relative risk associated with this specific pathology.

– "SARS-CoV-2: fear versus data", International Journal of Antimicrobial Agents, 19th March 2020

link


Dr. David Katz link is an American physician and founding director of the Yale University Prevention Research Center

What he says:

I am deeply concerned that the social, economic and public health consequences of this near-total meltdown of normal life — schools and businesses closed, gatherings banned — will be long-lasting and calamitous, possibly graver than the direct toll of the virus itself. The stock market will bounce back in time, but many businesses never will. The unemployment, impoverishment and despair likely to result will be public health scourges of the first order.

– "Is Our Fight Against Coronavirus Worse Than the Disease?", New York Times 20th March 2020

link


Michael T. Osterholm link is regents professor and director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota.

What he says:

Consider the effect of shutting down offices, schools, transportation systems, restaurants, hotels, stores, theaters, concert halls, sporting events and other venues indefinitely and leaving all of their workers unemployed and on the public dole. The likely result would be not just a depression but a complete economic breakdown, with countless permanently lost jobs, long before a vaccine is ready or natural immunity takes hold.

[…]

[T]he best alternative will probably entail letting those at low risk for serious disease continue to work, keep business and manufacturing operating, and "run" society, while at the same time advising higher-risk individuals to protect themselves through physical distancing and ramping up our health-care capacity as aggressively as possible. With this battle plan, we could gradually build up immunity without destroying the financial structure on which our lives are based.

– "Facing covid-19 reality: A national lockdown is no cure", Washington Post 21st March 2020

link


Dr Peter Goetzsche link is Professor of Clinical Research Design and Analysis at the University of Copenhagen and founder of the Cochrane Medical Collaboration. He has written several books on corruption in the field of medicine and the power of big pharmaceutical companies.

What he says:

Our main problem is that no one will ever get in trouble for measures that are too draconian. They will only get in trouble if they do too little. So, our politicians and those working with public health do much more than they should do.

No such draconian measures were applied during the 2009 influenza pandemic, and they obviously cannot be applied every winter, which is all year round, as it is always winter somewhere. We cannot close down the whole world permanently.

Should it turn out that the epidemic wanes before long, there will be a queue of people wanting to take credit for this. And we can be damned sure draconian measures will be applied again next time. But remember the joke about tigers. "Why do you blow the horn?" "To keep the tigers away." "But there are no tigers here." "There you see!"

– "Corona: an epidemic of mass panic", on Deadly Medicines 21st March 2020

link

wmyers27 Mar 2020 6:48 p.m. PST

The Public Health Agency of Canada does NOT recommend isolation, voluntary home quarantine, protective self-separation, voluntary avoidance of crowded places or mandatory quarantine if you are asymptomatic, not at high risk of complications and without "COVID-19" or any exposure risk.

link

Mithmee28 Mar 2020 6:51 a.m. PST

wmyers,

All those would be considered to be heretics since they are not following the set line that should be pushed.

a 78-year-old man with previous illnesses died of heart failure, and that without Sars-2 lung involvement. Since he was infected, he naturally appears in the Covid 19 statistics. But the question is whether he would not have died anyway, even without Sars-2.

Yes just how many more are there like this.

But to speak the truth will get you branded as a Heretic and the impacts of their "draconian measures" will last far longer than this will.

wmyers28 Mar 2020 8:41 a.m. PST

That is what happened with Dr Kettner, listed above.

A phone interview with a respected physician appears to have been cut short by CBC Radio when the Doctor went off-script.

Dr Joel Kettner phoned into the March 15th episode of CBC's Cross Country Checkup podcast to discuss the Canadian (and international) reaction to the Covid19 pandemic. He was in the middle of making a point about statistics when the host abruptly cut him off.

While the two invited guests were very much taking the governmental line on the threat of Covid19, Dr Kettner was striking a different tone.

To be clear, Dr Kettner is not a fringe or controversial character. He is professor of Community Health Sciences and Surgery at Manitoba University, former Chief Public Health Officer for Manitoba province and Medical Director of the International Centre for Infectious Diseases .

Mithmee28 Mar 2020 9:52 a.m. PST

Yup they will shut you off or down if you are not following their script.

Oh and he will be considered to be a Heretic now since he is not buying into the party's line and pushing the fear.

Personal logo StoneMtnMinis Supporting Member of TMP In the TMP Dawghouse28 Mar 2020 10:00 a.m. PST

You have to realize the Deleted by Moderator media have done nothing but try to whip the public into a frenzy to cause widespread panic. And yes, Deleted by Moderator

Bottom line; if you're older and in poor health, the flu, by whatever name, has a greatly increased chance of killing you.

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP28 Mar 2020 10:03 a.m. PST

picture

Mithmee28 Mar 2020 10:10 a.m. PST

has a greatly increased chance of killing you.

Living results in death 100% of the time.

altfritz28 Mar 2020 10:40 a.m. PST

Still pushing the hoax meme, eh?

Personal logo Dan Cyr Supporting Member of TMP28 Mar 2020 2:13 p.m. PST

God, you love to hear yourself talk. Relax, please.

Mithmee28 Mar 2020 3:08 p.m. PST

Still pushing the hoax meme, eh?

What hoax meme?

Never said there was no disease happening only a manufacture crisis.

God, you love to hear yourself talk. Relax, please.

I am relax went out shopping and picked up some new shorts and a shirt.

Oh and there were quite a lot of individuals who were out shopping as well.

Condottiere29 Mar 2020 3:49 p.m. PST

The original statements made in this thread are an example of cherry picking comments and opinions out of context in order to justify past statements here that were reckless and not helpful in the least. Sure, anyone can scan the internet and find a number of conflicting comments, but it has nothing to do with the consensus opinion and only leads to furthering disinformation. Basically, it's a load of …

Mithmee29 Mar 2020 6:49 p.m. PST

Crap, yes the comments that the experts are saying are just that.

Like the latest claiming that the United Stated will see 200,000 dead from this.

Maybe over the next 10-15 years maybe but not over the next several months.

Just more over blown hype to fuel the "Fear" that they are pushing.

Martin from Canada29 Mar 2020 7:22 p.m. PST

Where did you get the 15 year timeframe?

Here's where I'm assuming the information came from (whether directly or second hand)

link

"looking at what we're seeing now, I would say between 100,000 and 200,000 cases — excuse me, deaths — we're going to have millions of cases."


As for never believe the worst case scenario? True to a certain extent, but a non-negligible amount of people will modify their behavior in the face of a threat stimuli, it's really hard to hit that benchmark unless government policy actively tries to suppress mitigation efforts.

With regards to COVID, there's very strong evidence showing that social distancing is working at slowing the spread of the disease, buying time for the healthcare infrastructure to ramp up to meat the threat. This is at the heart of Ferguson's "revised" numbers from a few days ago.

link

1/4 – I think it would be helpful if I cleared up some confusion that has emerged in recent days. Some have interpreted my evidence to a UK parliamentary committee as indicating we have substantially revised our assessments of the potential mortality impact of COVID-19.

2/4 -This is not the case. Indeed, if anything, our latest estimates suggest that the virus is slightly more transmissible than we previously thought. Our lethality estimates remain unchanged.

3/4 – My evidence to Parliament referred to the deaths we assess might occur in the UK in the presence of the very intensive social distancing and other public health interventions now in place.

Mar 26
4/4 – Without those controls, our assessment remains that the UK would see the scale of deaths reported in our study (namely, up to approximately 500 thousand).

In the end, I hope this end up being akin to Y2K, CFCs and acid rain than Mike "Heck of a Job" Brown's response to Katrina. Serious problems that were addressed in time, and look minor now because we escaped the worse-case scenario.

Mithmee30 Mar 2020 10:11 a.m. PST

It will be like H1N1 from 11 years ago which also came from China.

They are making these outrageous claims since it keeps the "FEAR" up.

They are trying to make this out to be another Spanish Flu and it will not be.

Current number of deaths here in the states is just above 2,600 (which like elsewhere they are putting individuals who had it and died because of their bad health) so it is probably a tiny bit inflated.

But they have claimed 200,000 which is 100 times what it is now.

But even if we did get to that amount (will never happen) the odds of you actually dying from this is…

Still slim to none base on our current population in this country.

But it continues to drive the "FEAR" and that is their main goal now.

Condottiere30 Mar 2020 1:09 p.m. PST

It will be like H1N1 from 11 years ago

Really? Lol

Mithmee30 Mar 2020 3:27 p.m. PST

Yes really,

link

Posted this enough times and so far there has been nothing from this that is any different then 11 years ago.

Other then it is another disease that has came out of China.

This is what the Spanish Flu was killing on a daily basis 100 year ago.

137K – 233K

That is per day average from the total number of known deaths.

This is nothing when compared to that killer.

But they have pushed the "FEAR" to such a level that you have armed individuals cutting down trees to keep outsiders in and so far one confirm case of murder.

So is the CDC wrong in their numbers from 11 years ago?

Condottiere31 Mar 2020 8:13 a.m. PST

Downplaying the covid-19 virus by comparing it to other pandemics is simply dangerous and constitutes misinformation.

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2020 11:39 a.m. PST

This sums it up pretty well:

picture

Condottiere31 Mar 2020 1:02 p.m. PST

laugh

Mithmee31 Mar 2020 3:02 p.m. PST

simply dangerous and constitutes misinformation

Far better than claiming that it will kill hundreds of thousands or claiming that half of this country or state will be getting it.

They speak of "FEAR" and that is actually what they got.

Total deaths in this country are still under 3,600.

So this is looking like it will kill around same as what the H1N1 did.

But you can go right on believing that it will kill more than what the Spanish Flu did 100 years ago.

Mithmee31 Mar 2020 3:10 p.m. PST

Oh and actually we never seen Godzilla kill that many humans.

mghFond31 Mar 2020 3:51 p.m. PST

Godzilla did it when people weren't looking. :)

Condottiere31 Mar 2020 4:11 p.m. PST

Mr. Sleezer, the Administrations own estimates are 100,000 to 240,000 deaths in the US: link

Mithmee31 Mar 2020 5:27 p.m. PST

Well still a very long way to go even to get to the first number and I would not say that it is the administrations view.

But the view of the government bureaucrats and I really do hate bureaucrats.

Time will tell but to get to 100,000 around 96,400 more will have to died within the next 3-6 months.

I do not see that happening.

But you can believe in their claims because if you say it enough it will be true.

Alinsky wrote a book on that.

Which means that if you lie, and lie and lie people will begin believing that it is the truth.

Sorry to say that does not work when it comes to me.

Condottiere31 Mar 2020 6:19 p.m. PST

So only FEAR works with you?

Tumbleweed Supporting Member of TMP31 Mar 2020 6:33 p.m. PST

darthfozzywig:

Your cartoon was brilliant!

It shows that there is no need to discuss the matter any more. The only thing we have to fear is the fear of fear itself, so be afraid and live. Keep your mouth shut so germs don't get in. Be afraid and wear a mask and gloves when you buy groceries. Follow your governor's instructions.

This is only going to get much, much worse, so get with the program.

Your fear is a good thing and will keep you alive.

Mithmee31 Mar 2020 9:56 p.m. PST

So only FEAR works with you?

No because what is there to be afraid of?

Dying?

Sorry but everyone dies it is a given from the moment you are born.

Mithmee31 Mar 2020 10:00 p.m. PST

Follow your governor's instructions.

He is not my Governor never voted for him or will I ever vote for him.

Oh and I will not wear a mask or gloves when shopping.

Condottiere01 Apr 2020 6:34 a.m. PST

No because what is there to be afraid of?

Your apparent constant repetition of the word "FEAR" could lead one to believe that you are masking a deep fear of the covid-19 virus. Extreme denial?

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP01 Apr 2020 10:54 a.m. PST

No fear here, Tumbleweed. Only you and Mithmee talking about being afraid. But I understand your motivation.

Stay well.

NWMike06 Apr 2020 5:36 a.m. PST

Phooey.

I'd be more inclined to believe it if you told me the government and media was running a cover-up, and that the death toll is greater than what they claim.

A Spanish flu type pandemic would be more likely to destablize governments than strengthen them.

Mithmee06 Apr 2020 7:15 a.m. PST

I know since they are not happy that they cannot put every single death that happens everyday down as COVID 19.

Oh and there is no cover-up except over in China, gee I wonder why?

Just a huge manufacture crisis that they are taking full advantage of.

So you must be okay with losing your Freedoms and Rights.

Also okay with arresting those who are not obeying their orders.

Oh and also with the States locking down their borders with other states.

So even after padding the numbers they are not even at 10,000 dead let alone 240,000.

svsavory06 Apr 2020 8:05 a.m. PST

Mithmee, who is "they?"

Condottiere06 Apr 2020 9:23 a.m. PST

"They" are random voices inside one's head. laugh

Personal logo McKinstry Supporting Member of TMP Fezian06 Apr 2020 5:00 p.m. PST

link

Per the CDC the death count likely understates the number. Up until mid-March, no specific code existing for statistical purposes showing CV-19 deaths and even now, many untested deaths are being reported as pneumonia or flu.

Mithmee06 Apr 2020 7:05 p.m. PST

Yup they are really sad that they could not put every death down as being caused by COVID 19.

Individual killed in a car wreck wasn't the trauma that killed them nope it was COVIT 19.

Individual has a Heart Attack – COVID 19 was the cause. Oh and they have marked down quite a few already this way.

The numbers are not understated because they are over stated and they want to change that since they have made claims that they need to be true.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.