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"Scientists unexpectedly witness wolf puppies play fetch" Topic


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Tango0106 Feb 2020 8:57 p.m. PST

"The findings were made serendipitously when researchers tested 13 wolf puppies from three different litters in a behavioral test battery designed to assess various behaviors in young dog puppies. During this series of tests, three 8-week-old wolf puppies spontaneously showed interest in a ball and returned it to a perfect stranger upon encouragement. The discovery comes as a surprise because it had been hypothesized that the cognitive abilities necessary to understand cues given by a human, such as those required for a game of fetch, arose in dogs only after humans domesticated them at least 15,000 years ago.

"When I saw the first wolf puppy retrieving the ball I literally got goose bumps," says Christina Hansen Wheat of Stockholm University, Sweden. "It was so unexpected, and I immediately knew that this meant that if variation in human-directed play behavior exists in wolves, this behavior could have been a potential target for early selective pressures exerted during dog domestication."…"
Main page
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Amicalement
Armand

Asteroid X06 Feb 2020 10:27 p.m. PST

Yet another nail in the coffin of "evolution".

Like, "hello!", why wouldn't dogs be able to fetch?! Wolves are dogs.

Where I live many people have half-wolves and wolves and they are no different than other similar breeds.

Tango0107 Feb 2020 12:45 p.m. PST

Glup!….


Amicalement
Armand

Wolfhag07 Feb 2020 6:32 p.m. PST

Wolves and dogs can mate and reproduce so don't that make them the same species?

Wolfhag

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP08 Feb 2020 6:50 a.m. PST

So can wolves and coyotes, they aren't the same species.
While most consider dogs a subspecies of Wolf, some do not.
Just being able to interbreed isn't the only definition.
Behaviour, morphology. genetics etc are also part of it.

And as usual, Deleted by Moderator, a wolf is nothing like any similar breed.
Dogs have had 40 000+++ years to evolve with us and of course, be bred with us. Dogs in many cases understand humans speech and behaviour better than they do other dogs. And there isn't a species humans understand better than dogs either(except other humans) So while you can have a wolf and live just fine with it, you one day suddenly realise that it's biting you and killing you because it's a wild animal that doesn't have thousands of years of domestication to help it fit in human society.

And the wolf/dog hybrids are even worse, you take a big powerful yet shy animal that is the wolf and then mix it with say a german shepherd who is anything by shy, and in fact can be quite vicious. And that mix will not work. you have a ticking time bomb, it might go perfectly well for those 10 years the animal is a life, or it might kill you or a child within 2 years. It will understand humans less then a dog will, it will have the killer instinct of a wolf and the aggression of a german shepherd.

That's why in many countries, not only is it illegal to keep wolves as pets, but any wolf/dog hybrid is illegal too. They are simply too unreliable, you never know what you're going to get.

You do have official wolf/dog hybrid breeds, the Czech wolfdog and the Sarlos.

The problem is that even 50 years after the last wolf was used to make the breeds, they still suffer from extreme shyness. They are perfectly fine dogs, but they are generally very shy and sceptical of other humans.

Asteroid X08 Feb 2020 9:18 p.m. PST

It's always hilarious to see people make statements about that which they think they know about but really do not.

There are many adjectives for such people.

Previously, wolves and dogs were considered separate species: canis familiaris and canis lupus. However, scientists agree they are both a sub-species of canis lupus. Unlike dogs and foxes, wolves and dogs can reproduce. When two animals can create a fertile offspring, they are considered to be of the same species.

This is what happens when people watch Hollywood fiction (ie 'Alpha') and then equate this fiction with reality.

One may as well assume '10,000BC' is as accurate and mammoths were used to build the pyramids.


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Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP09 Feb 2020 4:51 a.m. PST

Deleted by Moderator

Didn't I literally say coyotes and wolves can interbreed they are not the same species Deleted by Moderator

It's at times extremely hard to say what are the same species, what are subspecies and what are different species.

And interbeeding is just one of many factors used to determine it.

Grey wolf is canis Lupus of which there are many subspecies' of, canis Lupus lupus is the Eurasian wolf and most scientists put dogs as canis Lupus familiaries. But others do not, mostly because of huge behavioural difference.

Feral dogs don't become wolves, they don't make family packs, they don't do coordinated hunting etc. They have completely different behaviour from wolves.

Asteroid X09 Feb 2020 10:47 a.m. PST

Deleted by Moderator

So, one thing at a time to help alleviate any potential misunderstanding and confusion.

1. When two animals can create a fertile offspring, they are considered to be of the same species.

According to the biological species concept, organisms belong to the same species if they can interbreed to produce viable, fertile offspring. Species are separated from one another by prezygotic and postzygotic barriers, which prevent mating or the production of viable, fertile offspring.

link

This is from an educational site aimed at middle years learners (grades 5 – 9) Deleted by Moderator

(There may be linguistic barriers which often lead to comprehension difficulties and therefore misunderstandings.)

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP09 Feb 2020 12:05 p.m. PST

Deleted by Moderator

Can coyotes and wolves make fertile offspring?

Are they the same species?

First question is yes, the second is no, your whole very limited idea of species is invalid.

Deleted by Moderator

Look into speices problem, ring species. Deleted by Moderator

For refence American wolves and coyotes split some 110 000 years ago while the domestic dog probably split some 60ish 000 years ago from European wolves.

All canis can interbreed coyotes with wolves, wolves with jackals etc. Yet they are not the same species.

Asteroid X09 Feb 2020 2:25 p.m. PST

your whole very limited idea of species is invalid.

You may not understand the link and quote above is not of my personal website.

I quoted it so you may have a better understanding. I don't think it worked …

Deleted by Moderator

Martin From Canada09 Feb 2020 3:50 p.m. PST

This is from an educational site aimed at middle years learners (grades 5 – 9) Deleted by Moderator

You are aware that much of the material taught at this level is "high level" and devoid of nuance in order for the pupil to assimilate the broad strokes of the lesson, and that nuance will be taught later-on in their schooling? I've taught second-year generalist courses, aka rocks for jocks type of courses that are aimed at non-majors. Many times in my lesson, I'll use words to the effect of "this is accurate most of the time, but there are niche exceptions that are beyond the scope of this course." Why get bogged down and confuse people who are still trying to get the broad strokes of matter.

Once you get to university (or a particularly rigorous high school course), it's apparent that there is no good single definition of what is a species, or even a universally applicable theory on what triggers speciation. Mostly due to the fact that "species" is a human construct that we use to classify different animals into categories. That's not to say that the concept of species is meaningless – far from it since it provides an important classification scheme and can be used via the path from common ancestors. However, a definition of species that works for an evolutionary biologist may not satisfy a DNA taxonomist, and vice versa.

Asteroid X09 Feb 2020 4:57 p.m. PST

Martin, please don't get sent to the Dawghouse, for this, too.

You don't "lose it" like others who act like they are tween keyboard warriors.

Anime inspired nicknames are a clear give away.

I can just picture the temper tantrum at home in front of the keyboard. Then mom calling downstairs into the basement asking, "Are you okay? Perhaps you should go outside and play in the real world?"

Volleyfire10 Feb 2020 3:20 a.m. PST

Blimey, you guys really can make a flame war out of absolutely any subject.

PzGeneral10 Feb 2020 5:04 a.m. PST

Does anyone see the irony of the fact that wmyers and Gunfreak got themselves Dawghoused arguing if Dogs are Wolves…? evil grin

Cerdic10 Feb 2020 10:39 a.m. PST

The whole 'different species' thing seems to be a bit of a red herring (no, don't…).

Tigers and lions are different species in anyone's book. But you can still get a tigon or liger!

For an interesting insight into domesticated behaviour, have a look at the 'Siberian fox experiment'…

link

Personal logo javelin98 Supporting Member of TMP10 Feb 2020 3:04 p.m. PST

I don't see why the scientists were surprised. Domestication had to begin somewhere with a wild animal getting cozy with a caveman. If they just take those wolf puppies and fast-forward 10,000 years, their descendants will be teacup shihpoogles carried around in whatever passes for a handbag by then.

Martin From Canada10 Feb 2020 7:43 p.m. PST

The whole 'different species' thing seems to be a bit of a red herring

Yes and no. The hand-wringing over species is a byproduct of Young Earth Creationists having to reconcile their lived experience and modern science with supposedly inerrant and infaillible Bronse-Age myths. This leads to cognitive dissonance such as accepting micro-evolution since this is too obvious to deny (but some try), while stating that the species is unchanged, and thus keeping the need for a designer (intelligent or otherwise). But this is akin to accepting inches, but denying the existence of miles.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP12 Feb 2020 6:49 a.m. PST

Does anyone see the irony of the fact that wmyers and Gunfreak got themselves Dawghoused arguing if Dogs are Wolves

Yes & you'll notice there's been a 'paws' in the name calling since they've been gone.

Mithmee12 Feb 2020 1:19 p.m. PST

But Dogs are related to Wolves.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP12 Feb 2020 5:50 p.m. PST

Doggone, Bill. He should keep these chaps on shorter leads. But maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.
I did shoot Gunny a PM, asking howl's it going…..

(I-can't-stop…..)

Asteroid X13 Feb 2020 9:31 p.m. PST

Does anyone see the irony of the fact that wmyers and Gunfreak got themselves Dawghoused arguing if Dogs are Wolves…?

I did! It was pretty funny.

Asteroid X13 Feb 2020 9:35 p.m. PST

Doggone, Bill. He should keep these chaps on shorter leads. But maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree.
I did shoot Gunny a PM, asking howl's it going…..

(I-can't-stop…..)

Trying to stir the pot. What comes around goes around. It's like the Indian version of 'Made of rubber' – although they call it karma.

Maybe some good scientific quotes from 'Rolling Stone' or 'Wikipedia' would give some credibility.

We are still waiting for your response in that thread.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP15 Feb 2020 4:29 p.m. PST

"We"? Are you the Queen, now?

Asteroid X16 Feb 2020 6:03 p.m. PST

It took how many days for that witty response…

Especially for someone who c-can't stop. But can exhibit avoidance behaviour to deflect from quoting dIscredited US politicians.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP17 Feb 2020 5:05 a.m. PST

Sorry wmyers, I don't hang on your every utterance. There is also the concept of global time difference. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it. This may help:
24timezones.com/#/map

Your continual pursuit of me seems odd. Are you "butt-hurt" as you Americans put it, because I have said I find your arguments spurious?

If so, please don't be angry as I have no rancour for you. Merely indifference.Indeed, as well as not engaging you in discussion, I think I will extend this to not engaging you at all. Please return the compliment. Or not (see comment re: indifference).

Asteroid X19 Feb 2020 3:52 p.m. PST

When prayers are answered!

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