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""Climategate" Is a Decade Old" Topic


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Martin From Canada15 Nov 2019 4:21 p.m. PST

"Climategate" Is a Decade Old. All It Exposed is the Bad Faith of Climate Deniers | Opinion
Michael E. Mann

[…]Never matter that multiple subsequent investigations revealed no wrongdoing on the part of scientists. Indeed, the true irony is that, just like Watergate after which it was named, the only wrongdoing was the criminal theft itself. But the damage was already done. "Climategate" became a rallying cry for the fossil fuel-funded climate denial network and industry-funded politicians alike.

The ultimate legacy of the affair, however, is quite different from what climate denialists might like to think. While the fossil fuel industry had for decades sought to forestall regulation of carbon emissions, Climategate illustrated the depths of dishonesty to which denialists were willing to sink in their efforts to sabotage action on climate. It was a tacit admission on their part that they no longer had a legitimate case to make.

And so citing "Climategate" as a reason for inaction has become a simple "tell" in the climate discourse. Those who do it are acting in bad faith. They are not honest actors expressing true belief. They are dissemblers intentionally misrepresenting the science and the scientists to score political points on behalf of the fossil fuel interests whose bidding they are doing.[…]

link

Cheers,
Martin from Canada

Mithmee15 Nov 2019 5:26 p.m. PST

Oh and over this past decade the Climate Alarmists have not proven that the earth is any warmer now than it has been in the past.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian15 Nov 2019 7:10 p.m. PST

Oh and over this past decade the Climate Alarmists have not proven that the earth is any warmer now than it has been in the past.

Hard to see how you can state that.

Asteroid X15 Nov 2019 9:22 p.m. PST

Climate gate? Sounds like a conspiracy to make false claims about climate change …

YouTube link

link


YouTube link

Martin, you've never shown how the climate model expose is false?

Nor Dr. Ball's explanation of a false level of consensus?

Denial does not prove anything. Nor does hiding a head in the sand, screaming over another, repeating something enough hoping it will be accepted, slander, nor liable.

All these links go to great extent to show exactly how climate alarmism is false.

All use peer reviewed data.

The first demonstrates WHY the use of modelled data AND how it has been manipulated.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP15 Nov 2019 10:08 p.m. PST

Talking about climate change is possibly a pleasant pastime. Living through its consequences is another thing entirely.

link

My part of the world is not a pleasant one at the moment. Four dead. Millions of hectares of Bush burnt, Hundreds of homes gone. And no rain insight until, they tell us, February.

Looks like we've made a hell on earth.

Asteroid X15 Nov 2019 10:52 p.m. PST

Parts of both the United States and Australia share a combustible mix of fire hazards, such as an ecology adapted to fire-prone conditions and a climate conducive to wildfires. And every year, more people choose to live in some of the most beautiful and hazardous country around — the wildland's edge.

The destruction will only escalate, scientists predict, until we stop fighting fires in the forests and brush. Instead, the focus should shift to securing homes and structures, as well as applying new research that overturns long-standing conventional wisdom about fire defense, experts say.

"We're losing homes in fires because homes are being put into hazardous conditions," said Jon Keeley, a fire ecologist with the U.S Geological Survey (USGS). "The important thing is not to blame it on the fire event, but instead to think about planning and reduce putting people at risk."

Thanks to work by Keeley and his colleagues, researchers now know techniques that work for firefighters in the Colorado mountains won't help Californians battling wind-driven wildfires in the chaparral. [Images: Southwestern Wildfires Seen from Space]

Don't burn chaparral

In California, as the population sprawls, the fires grow. The loss of lives and property increased every decade in the past century, according to a 2001 study in the journal Conservation Biology by Keeley and USGS ecologist C.J. Fotheringham.

One hundred years of fire suppression is partly to blame. To protect homes, local fire managers frequently set California's chaparral-covered hills ablaze. But the decades spent earnestly "masticating" (mechanically removing potential fire fuel) devil-red manzanitas with trunks as thick as thighs, and the repeated prescribed burns, replaced native chaparral with incendiary invasive species like cheatgrass, according to the USGS.

link

Looks like they have done it to themselves…

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP16 Nov 2019 3:37 a.m. PST

The usual spurious nonsense but this time tinged with a certain brutal callousness over the loss of human life.

Applying American "solutions" to Australian problems makes no sense.

Martin From Canada16 Nov 2019 3:23 p.m. PST

Martin, you've never shown how the climate model expose is false?

Nor Dr. Ball's explanation of a false level of consensus?

Why don't I do it? I don't have the time to invest multiple hours on each of my response posts for you to blithely move on to the next discredited talking point, and you'll cycle back to where we were discussing a month ago without The only consistent argument you've put forward is that the consensus position is wrong, but most of the reasons why you say keep saying is wrong are mutually incompatible.

If you'll excuse me, I have a thesis to finish.

Martin from Canada

Asteroid X17 Nov 2019 10:12 p.m. PST

The usual spurious nonsense but this time tinged with a certain brutal callousness over the loss of human life.

Applying American "solutions" to Australian problems makes no sense.

No one likes hearing about tragedy. Tragedy does not change the antecedent.

If the solution works, there is no reason to bash it simply because it is from the USA.

As for global warming being the culprit down under, The Australian has a bit to report about that:

Like a struck match in the bush, global warming is the spark that triggers a destructive firestorm in public debate. Heated on emotion, fanned by sensationalist media and fuelled by ideology, it burns through common sense, reason and decency, showing no respect for facts or rational thought.

Climate alarmists are using tragic deaths and community pain to push a political barrow. Aided by journalists and others who should know better, they are trying to turn a threat endured on this continent for millennia into a manifestation of their contemporary crusade.

It is opportunistic, transparent, grisly and plain dumb. Contributions this past week take lunacy to new levels in an ominous sign for public discourse. In this land of droughts and flooding rains — Dorothea Mackellar's "flood, fire and famine" — we now confront an extra injury every time the weather tests us; silly and reckless posturing from climate alarmists trying to prove their point.

History doesn't matter to them, nor the facts. Rather than consider reality they proffer an almost hallucinogenic alternative, pretending their political gestures will deliver cooler, damper summers unsinged by bushfires.

This repugnant rhetoric must be called out; facts and science must prevail.

But engaging in this debate must never be interpreted as downplaying the severity of what has occurred — four deaths, hundreds of properties destroyed, lives changed and trauma ongoing. It is only to say this is the perennial horror of our sunburnt country that will bedevil this land long after all of us, our children and our children's children are gone.

Australia's natural history is impossible to interpret without reference to fire; plants evolved to survive bushfire and depend on it for propagation. Indigenous heritage demonstrates an understanding of fire in managing vegetation, protecting kin and hunting animals. Since European settlement our story is replete with the menacing scent of disaster and tragic episodes.

Victoria has suffered most, in 1851 with a dozen people killed, along with a million sheep and five million hectares burned. In 1926, 60 dead; in 1939 there were 71 dead and just five years later at least 15 died. In the 1960s dozens were killed in Victoria in numerous years and just 10 years ago on Black Saturday 173 lives were lost along with more than 2000 houses.

In South Australia and Tasmania there is a similar repetition of tragedy, often during the same heatwaves, only with smaller and sparser populations the casualties are lower. Still, the toll is horrific; 62 people died in the Tasmanian fires of 1967.

Wetter summers and drier winters make the NSW fire season earlier and less intense, with blazes common in late spring. Devastating blazes have been regular, taking multiple lives on multiple occasions in the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s.

Yet so much coverage and commentary in the past week would have it that the latest tragedy is a new phenomenon. Rare as it is for the rainforests of northern NSW and southern Queensland to burn, it happens.

Back in September, Joelle Gergis of the Australian Nationa University's Climate Change Institute wrote in Guardian Australia about how "I never thought I'd see the Australian rainforest burning. What will it take for us to wake up to the climate crisis?" The Climate Council member wrote: "As a scientist, what I find particularly disturbing about the current conditions is that world heritage rainforest areas such as the Lamington National Park in the Gold Coast hinterland are now burning."

But such fires predate climate change: "A bushfire in Lamington National Park today swept through a grove of 3000-year-old Macrozamia palms," The Cairns Post reported on October 25, 1951. "These trees were one of the features of the park … the fire has burnt out about 2000 acres of thick rainforest country." That is rainforest burning in Lamington National Park 70 years ago.

Journalists, often encouraged by authorities, have written about the "unprecedented" nature of the Queensland fires. Yet newspaper searches tell a different story. Toowoomba's The Chronicle in 1946 reported winter fires in late Aug­ust: "From Bundaberg to the New South Wales border … hundreds of square miles of drought-stricken southeastern Queensland were aflame." Two years later in The Central Queensland Herald there were reports on September 30 of "An 800-mile chain of bushfires fed by dry grass stretched tonight along the Queensland coast from Cairns to Maryborough."

Earlier this year, former NSW fire commissioner, now ­climate activist, Greg Mullins told ABC radio: "There's fires breaking out in places where they just shouldn't burn, the west coast of Tasmania, the world heritage areas, wet rainforest, subtropical rainforest, it's all burning — and look, this is driven by climate change, there's no other explanation."

But The South Australian Chronicle of February 1915 reported lives lost and the "most devastating bushfires ever known in Tasmania sweeping over the northwest coast and other districts. The extent of the devastation cannot be over-estimated." And in 1982 The Canberra Times detailed a "huge forest fire" burning out 75,000ha of dense rainforest on Tasmania's West Coast.

Terrible as our fires are — often the worst in a generation or more — they are not abnormal in our landscapes, in our climate. A sober discussion in the global warming context might argue that, across time, our endemic bushfire threat could increase marginally rather than diminish with extra rain.

But to suggest the threat is new or can be diminished by climate policy is to pile false hope and mind-numbing stupidity on top of alarmist politicking.

This week, journalists and politicians have wilfully misrepresented claims from NSW fire authorities that they had never confronted so many emergency-level fires at once. An unprecedented number of fires, especially when deliberately lit, has more to do with expanding population than climate.

There also has been much ­hyperbole about the fire rating of "catastrophic"; a new category added to the rating system after Victoria's 2009 fires to ensure greater community responsiveness. CNN International went heavy on our fires, saying half of Queensland was facing bushfire emergency.

The US-based broadcaster ran a Nine Network report by Airlie Walsh declaring it was the "first time in history Sydney had been met with such catastrophic conditions". This was typical of the misleading reporting; it was merely the first time the "catastrophic" category had been invoked since it was introduced a decade ago.

Back in 2009, the ABC reported how the additional category was about raising awareness: "Victorian Premier John Brumby said in the last fire season, only five days would have been classified as code red. The new fire warnings system will provide the community with a better understanding of the level of bushfire threat on any given day based on the forecast weather conditions, he said in a statement."

CNN also used our fires as the basis for an interview with David Wallace-Wells, author of The ­Uninhabitable Earth. He was asked "how dangerous" it was that our Prime Minister "doesn't actually want to tackle the problem". This, in the modern parlance, is fake news.

Wallace-Wells, without resort to science, asserted Australia was ­already "suffering intensely" from climate change which, according to him, was responsible for our current drought. He also wrongly claimed our government was not taking any "meaningful action" on climate.

One of my favourite books as a child was Ash Road by Ivan Southall, about the misadventures of some boys who foolishly started a bushfire. It captured an overbearing dread many Australians can smell as clearly as eucalyptus in the bush.

"It always happened on a day like this," wrote Southall, "when the north wind raged, the temperature soared and the hills were so dry that they crackled.

"Fire at most seasons of the year was nothing but a flame that water could extinguish; in this season, on a day like this, a little flame in an instant could become a monster."

This invokes memories of bushfires near home in the Adelaide foothills and trepidatious summer days on my uncle's farm in the incendiary bluegum country of western Victoria. In the country and on the urban fringes, bushfire is part of our national psyche because of hard-bitten ­experience.

As a national park staffer, and having studied and trained at bushfire management, I experienced one of the Ash Wednesday infernos in 1983. Temperatures well over 40C, tinder-dry bush in the steepest parts of the Adelaide Hills and winds gusting towards 100km/h; this was hell on earth, when fires become a storm and only survival counts.

I missed the worst of it but joined the mop-up — a miserable task amid burned homes, melted cars and the smell of death — ­before helping to extinguish blazes over following days. No one who was there will ever say they've seen worse.

People who have seen bushfires only on television can have no idea, and those who experience the horrors of a firestorm won't get into silly comparisons. In her nonfiction account of Victoria's Churchill fire on Black Saturday, Chloe Hooper relays first-person accounts.

"The flames were lying down because the wind was howling through." "It was basically hailing fire." "It was like a jet engine, I've never heard a noise like it and then the penny dropped — it was the fire coming." "Trees ignited from the ground up in one blast, like they were self-exploding."

All of this is so lethal, terrifying and devastating — and always has been. It insults all those who have been lost before to pretend it is worse now.

Heat, wind and fuel are what drive our fire threat, and the worst conditions will involve hot, dry conditions and gale force winds across a heavy fuel load. The only factor we can realistically control is fuel — hazard reduction is crucial but often resisted.

While drought can limit the fire threat in some areas by inhibiting grass and shrub growth, the big dry has turned the forests of northern NSW and southern Queensland into tinderboxes. This situation is directly linked to the drought, so the critical question is whether there is a connection between the drought and climate change.

The most authoritative assessment of this came in June from the director of the Centre for ­Climate Extremes, Andrew Pitman. (I have inserted an additional word, in brackets, that Pitman and his centre later said should have been included.)

"This may not be what you expect to hear but as far as the climate scientists know there is no (direct) link between climate change and drought.

"Now, that may not be what you read in the newspapers and sometimes hear commented but there is no reason a priori why climate change should make the landscape more arid.

"And if you look at the Bureau of Meteorology data over the whole of the last 100 years there's no trend in data, there's no drying trend, there's been a drying trend in the last 20 years but there's been no drying trend in the last 100 years and that's an expression of how variable the Australian rainfall ­climate is."

Pitman is no climate sceptic. These are just the scientific facts. Yet his comments are fastidiously ignored by most media except to deliberately reinterpret them.

Mostly preferred are unfounded prognostications from people such as businessman cum green campaigner Geoffrey Cousins telling Radio National Breakfast "everyone in this country now understands the link between climate change and these fires".

Or Greens leader Richard Di Natale telling the Senate that global warming is "supercharging these megafires".

What a confluence: media eager to elevate a sense of crisis; political actors exaggerating to advance a cause; horrendous threats that require no embellishment; public fascinated by weather patterns; and information from official authorities feeding the frenzy (revised fire danger categ­ories; weather bureau rainfall records starting only from 1900, therefore eliminating the first five years of the Federation drought; historical temperature readings revised downwards so that this January a record capital city maximum was declared in Adelaide despite a maximum one full degree higher being recorded in January 1939).

When cold, hard analysis of facts is required, we see wild claims constantly made and ­seldom tested.

Di Natale and ­fellow Greens Adam Bandt and Jordon Steele-John stoop so low as to blame these fatal fires on the ­government, dubbing it "arsonists". Former fire chiefs gather to suggest, with straight faces, that some additional climate change action from government could have quelled these fires. It is as ­offensive as it is ­absurd, but it is seldom called out by a complicit media.

link

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP17 Nov 2019 11:01 p.m. PST

If the solution works, there is no reason to bash it simply because it is from the USA

Have you travelled overseas much? I must assume you haven't because it's self evident that the US & OZ are very different places and what may work there, won't work here. It's not bashing, like climate change, it's the truth.

No one likes hearing about tragedy.

Yet, you wrote, quite callously,

Looks like they have done it to themselves…

Some sort of an apology from you was warranted.

Mithmee18 Nov 2019 1:28 p.m. PST

The usual spurious nonsense but this time tinged with a certain brutal callousness over the loss of human life.

Applying American "solutions" to Australian problems makes no sense.

The loss of life has nothing to do with Climate Change/Global Warming.

Winter is coming here in the States fairly soon and has already arrived in some areas.

Every year individuals die during this time.

Due to; Traffic Accidents, Shoveling Snow, Slipping and Falling on the Ice etc…

Are these due to Climate Change/Global Warming?

Nope not a single one.

The same goes for the Forest Fires where mismanagement of the land is fueling them plus the current policy of forcing everyone out (I.E. tens of thousands) instead of putting those individuals to use in helping to fight the fires.

You want to blame someone…

Blame the Government and the individuals who decided to live in an area that gets little to no rains at times.

Oh and I would never want to apply any of the current "American Solutions" since most are very, very bad.

Tumbleweed Supporting Member of TMP18 Nov 2019 10:08 p.m. PST

You live until you die.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP18 Nov 2019 11:41 p.m. PST

live in an area that gets little to no rains at times.

Describes most of OZ. But I guess you've never been here. And of course, with Climate Change, things are demonstrably getting worse.

Tumbleweed Supporting Member of TMP20 Nov 2019 7:31 a.m. PST

We watched news clips on YouTube last night about the fires in Australia and the situation is very bad indeed.

Asteroid X20 Nov 2019 12:02 p.m. PST

I just went to the original linked article above and it is anything BUT a science article.

It is purely political.

It starts with, "the U.S. presidential election of 2016".

It ends with, "we're just a year away from a make or break election … that it gives us an opportunity to seize control of our future by turning out to vote"

It makes the now clear false claim of election interference as if it were a fact when Robert Mueller's investigation turned up nothing and the Democratic National Convention's lawsuit was thrown out of court.

Clearly "News"week is not a journal dedicated to news, but to mere biased opinion (they even note that at the end of the political diatribe linked above).

Not to mention it is also by the discredited Michael Mann …

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP20 Nov 2019 11:46 p.m. PST

the fires in Australia and the situation is very bad indeed.

Anyone who knows anything about OZ knows various factors make Bushfires a genuine threat. What's really worrying is the pronouncement made by government & fire authorities that the current emergency are worse by a factor of 10 than the 'Black Friday' fire disaster of 11 years ago, which as you undoubtedly know, was a horror show.

The pattern, supported by records, indicates a worsening climate situation that is exacerbating the problem.

Asteroid X21 Nov 2019 9:32 a.m. PST

The pattern, supported by records, indicates a worsening climate situation that is exacerbating the problem.

Actually, the pattern, supported by historical records, indicates this is NOT some type of "worsening climate" situation:

link

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP21 Nov 2019 11:11 p.m. PST

You're wrong.

Asteroid X22 Nov 2019 11:41 a.m. PST

youre wrong

Maybe you do not understand.

It is not I who is stating this.

It is the author reporting the scientific data in The Australian.

If they (the data and the author) are indeed wrong, please provide empirical evidence where, exactly, and how, exactly, it is wrong.

That way we can be sure of the errors and learn.

Just making blanket statements with no verifiable evidence is nothing more than "he said, she said" and is truly valueless and meaningless. Just like linking to someone's mere opinion that also does not provide any verifiable data or evidence. It is meaningless.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP22 Nov 2019 3:26 p.m. PST

Oh it is you…and some discredited sources. Again, you're wrong.

please provide empirical evidence where, exactly, and how, exactly, it is wrong.

Martin et al have provided creditable source after source. It really isn't worth the effort on my part.

Asteroid X22 Nov 2019 4:11 p.m. PST

Martin's sole source for this was a political opinion piece from a discredited person who provides no validated credible information (not even in a court of law, which he was required to do, refused and not only had his case thrown out but has also been ordered to pay the entire legal fees of the climate scientist (Ball) whom he tried to silence because said scientist called him on his claims and asked Mann to prove his claims. So, Mann thought if he sued him (among others!) he would silence anyone who dared question his unproven claims link).

Please provide where Martin (or anyone else) shows any evidence the scientific data provided in The Australian is discredited?

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP22 Nov 2019 8:57 p.m. PST

Again, your argument clouds scientific data with your opinion.

It's futile to continue a discussion about a place you don't know, haven't visited, don't comprehend and wish to refute, for some reason, local governmental sponsored scientific research. "The Australian". Really? Do you have any understanding of the media here?

TBH, I have grave doubts you'll read this (including the research papers, needing downloading) with anything like a spirit of open-minded scientific inquiry, but here you go.

link

For me, as soon as you started to try to apply information about N. America to the antipodes, I knew the gap between fact and pre-conceived opinion would be insurmountable.

Asteroid X23 Nov 2019 10:08 a.m. PST

On Nov. 15, I linked an article that notes the comparisons between Aus and USA ecology.

Parts of both the United States and Australia share a combustible mix of fire hazards, such as an ecology adapted to fire-prone conditions and a climate conducive to wildfires. And every year, more people choose to live in some of the most beautiful and hazardous country around — the wildland's edge.

From your offhand dismissal it seems you do not understand, nor care to understand, the similarities. It comes off as mere bias.

The climate council in Aus you link only goes back to the

mid 1990s
.

The article from The Australian goes back centuries.

Which one includes the wider base of historical climate data?

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP23 Nov 2019 1:33 p.m. PST

From your offhand dismissal

I think you gravely misunderstand me if you believe that adjective is accurate.

Asteroid X23 Nov 2019 5:11 p.m. PST

I am sorry if your dismissal seems offhanded, however, you merely stated,

Applying American "solutions" to Australian problems makes no sense.
and
it's self evident that the US & OZ are very different places and what may work there, won't work here

Yet, the article states:

Parts of both the United States and Australia share a combustible mix of fire hazards, such as an ecology adapted to fire-prone conditions and a climate conducive to wildfires. And every year, more people choose to live in some of the most beautiful and hazardous country around — the wildland's edge.

The destruction will only escalate, scientists predict, until we stop fighting fires in the forests and brush. Instead, the focus should shift to securing homes and structures, as well as applying new research that overturns long-standing conventional wisdom about fire defense, experts say.

"We're losing homes in fires because homes are being put into hazardous conditions," said Jon Keeley, a fire ecologist with the U.S Geological Survey (USGS). "The important thing is not to blame it on the fire event, but instead to think about planning and reduce putting people at risk."

Of course, when the entire academic content of your reply is

"You're wrong."
it does not say much for exactly HOW nor WHY this observation and recommendation are wrong.

It also makes one think you believe I am the author of the linked article, for some unknown reason …

Coupled with another informative response of

I think you gravely misunderstand me if you believe that adjective is accurate.
to the question
Which one includes the wider base of historical climate data?
it would seem you are exhibiting avoidance behaviour.

The question still stands.

Which one includes the wider base of historical climate data?

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