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"GoT vs expectations, destiny, arcs and power" Topic


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Patrick R14 May 2019 8:31 a.m. PST

First of all I'll throw it out there, I'm convinced that 3/4ths of all the reactions to the Red Wedding was merely mass hysteria. Hyperbolic reactions on social media became a game of trumping everyone else's "Ohmygodthisisimpossible !!!" reaction.

GRRM didn't invent this, it's been around for years, a good example is "The Great Silence" a 1968 Western where the main character called Silence, had his throat cut as a child and is now mute goes on a revenge spree to find the murderer of his parents. When he confronts the man things don't go as you might expect. More recently Lexx had the obvious hero killed in the pilot to be replaced by a dweeb.

GRRM is not even the first to question the tropes of Fantasy, writers like Moorcock or LeGuinn addressed classic stories like "The hero who rises to be king" or the "White Saviour" in their work.

GoT in many ways is to Fantasy what Watchmen is to Comics. It asks itself "What would really happen ?"

In Tolkien, Aragorn is destined to be the one true king and rule wisely until the end of his days. GRRM rejects this and asks "What is his tax policy ? Will he take the grain horded by the rich land-owners if there is a famine ? Will they try to rise against him for.

Watchmen took the filter of realism to superheroes and revealed it was nor going to be a pretty picture. Masked vigilantes are not a pretty bunch at the end of the day.

GoT is partially based on historical events, the Wars of the Roses and unlike reality the good, competent ones were rarely able to stay alive long enough to make a difference.

This is why the Red Wedding shocked so many people, they expected a traditional narrative with clear arcs, it was obvious that the various contenders were no match for somebody like Rob Stark who was not only very conspicuously the better man of the bunch, he had a righteous cause to fight for.

And then he gets murdered. Brutally.

In more traditional stories, he might survive in secret going through a "low point" arc and emerge as an even greater hero to achieve his destiny, except he didn't.

Look at all the people who struggled for power. Mad King Aegon trying to hold onto his crumbling power even if it meant sacrificing an entire city.

Robert Baratheon who in most works is the brave leader of the revolt, but ends up being more revolting than anything else, whoring, eating himself to an early grave, cuckolded and leaving an empty treasury after years of bad rule.

His brother Stannis who has the claim and the backing of Melisandre who burns a path for him with charred corpses in their wake only find out her unwavering belief and dedication was for nought.

Tywin Lannister, a man who believed himself a master of machiavellian politics, always an eye on the big picture, a chess-player who didn't even notice one of the pawns refused to play and showed up in his bedroom with a crossbow.

Olenna Tyrell tought she could intrigue better than anyone else, but was caught, despite having the best plans.

Bitter, angry Littlefinger who wanted to bring down the nobles for their vicious arrogance, another failure.

Mance Ryder, leader of a righteous rebellion, fighting for a just cause, for nought.

King Jeoffrey is a madman, who takes absolute power for granted without any regard for those he might offend.

Cersei, who desires power, but has no clue as how to use it, lashing out brutally but without results.

The High Sparrow, a man who had an army of the most fanatical followers, ready to die for his cause, so certain of his own unstoppable power gets blown up.

And even Daenerys who everybody had tipped in having her bum on the throne as money in the bank as the safest bet possible is now finding out that even those who delude themselves that they are the rightful monarch, that they are better and more enlightened than the others can be still be a monster.

No matter your modus operandi, be it ice cold calculation, intrigue, fanaticism of the highest degree. Unwavering belief, righteous indignation all the themes that in traditional fantasy will give you a full arc are taken down one by one by GRRM.

Sometimes it's dumb luck and it's the ones that don't want power that end up getting it tossed onto their lap.

People are now complaining that "This is not Jaime's or Daenery's arc !!"

Everyone saw Jaime as the redeemed villain, but there is no redemption in real life, you can try to atone, but your deeds remain, no matter how good you try to remain afterwards. His arc was to die with his sister.

Daenerys from a purely narrative point of view never fitted the story, if GRRM repeatedly makes the point that hoping for some ordained path to glory does not happen, why should he make an exception for Daenerys ? She was either going to die tragically or be the final big bad.

SalTony14 May 2019 10:18 a.m. PST

Its been rumored that after season 4 ( when most of GRR Martin source material was used up) HBO let the showrunners know they would like to see certain Characters story arcs built up based on their Popularity the researched of the viewing Audience,
So more Arya, Dany ,Tyrion and Brienne. Goodbye Stannis,
(Martin has said he is very much alive in the books) Mance and the other houses are limited to minor roles.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP14 May 2019 4:19 p.m. PST

Yeah, never underestimate the magical powers of the priests of the Almighty Buck.

Parzival's Ordination of the Writing World:

Writers write what they want.
Authors write what will sell.
Movie writers write what has already sold.
TV writers write what the boss says.

ScottWashburn Sponsoring Member of TMP15 May 2019 4:16 a.m. PST

Good observations Patrick.

But you left out the Night King who had seemingly unstoppable power, but wasn't prepared for the ambidextrous girl with a Valerian steel dagger :)

skippy000115 May 2019 9:30 a.m. PST

I'm still waiting for SG1 to show up.

Patrick R16 May 2019 7:13 a.m. PST

It's always going to be speculation since we don't have all of GRRM's books, but the Night King is pretty much the "classic evil overlord" with a built-in weak spot for instant victory.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that in a series that tries to bring "realism" to Fantasy he's never highlighted other than being the big mistake from ancient times ?

He never was the big bad after all, he was the red-herring since any girl with a dagger could kill him.

The danger was always with those who seek power at any cost. The real danger was Daenerys, who had all the intentions and delusion of becoming the great wise queen everybody would love, but isn't the Road to Hell paved with good intentions ? All villains believe they are doing good, nobody wants to be the villain, not even Ramsey Boulton, what little humanity he ever had stood apart of his actions in the service of power, ie "If I act bad enough they will fear me …" Just like IS or Mexican Drug Cartels where extreme deeds and terror are a form of control.

There is one special case : Jon Snow, the guy who reluctantly becomes chief of the Night's Watch, he tries to do good and is murdered by his own men and is restored to life to finish that arc.

Other than him the last few ones standing are all victims of the Game, they have seen the dark side of power, they have seen the failure of trying to grab power at any cost. They are the ones who will have to pick up the pieces, try to reconcile everyone and try to build a better way, not a perfect one, but at least one better than the disaster we had till now.

Tumbleweed Supporting Member of TMP16 May 2019 2:42 p.m. PST

"any girl with a dagger"

A highly-trained and experienced assassin, my friend. Perhaps the only person with the skills needed to kill the Night King.

Earl of the North19 May 2019 6:16 a.m. PST

With priceless Valyrian steel lets not forget, is there another dagger of this type mentioned still existing apart from Arya's?

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