"Avengers: Endgame" Topic

Got the chance to see this worldwide box-office phenomenon finally last night. 'Avatar' may have to look over its shoulders. My comments here: link

Mad Magazine came up with a good parody of it-"Avenjerks-Is This Ever Gonna End?Game." Quite funny,too.

Plan on watching it tomorrow.

Didn't enjoy it I don't no the MCU well enough so it is not complete. Did not encourage me to see more of them.

x42

x42,

No surprise. There are 21 more-or-less interconnected MCU movies before it and this movie references many of them, not to mention it continues from 'Avengers: Infinity War,' so without any context or an innate interest in the MCU there's really no point in watching it or expecting to enjoy it in the first place.

For those who have "invested" into the MCU more or less it is a memorable and rewarding movie that made them laugh, cheer and maybe even shed a few tears along the way.

It was fun and enjoyable, but the 'solution' to The Snap probably created more problems than it solved :)

Are we allowed details yet ?

Has the spoiler curve expired ?

If not – Spoiler alert:

After all the jokes about Time Travel movies (which I thought wasn't a very good script choice – have all these superheroes really seen the Back to the future series?) it was a bit of a shame that the mid-section was, essentially, Back to the future 2 (i.e. the heroes crawling around inside the earlier films).

I also thought the solution left rather a lot of paradoxes floating around. Is Gomora just going to date Quill because she did in her own previous future ? That's an odd foundation for a relationship.

I pity the non-super soldier serum Falcon in his new career path. He's going to get beaten up, a lot.

And can someone explain how Captain Mar-Vel can punch her way through a giant spaceship, but is then floored by a punch from Thanos ?

I actually preferred the previous film.

For those of you unfamiliar with how 'Endgame' had rewritten the "rules of time travel" from previous movies, this article which I alluded to in my review may be helpful:

link

As Hulk said, we can't change our past by going back in time and altering events because then that past in effect becomes our future. True, they went back in time to collect the stones before Thanos could get them and in so doing created alternate timelines, but after defeating Thanos Cap returned them to the exact time and place they were taken so that no alternate branching timelines were created as illustrated by Doctor Strange's predecessor.

SPOLIERS!

The really odd thing was that they didn't go back to prevent The Snap from happening, they just got the stones so that they could undo The Snap five years later. Can you imagine the mess? What about all the grieving widows and widowers who have moved on (with the life insurance payments) and remarried and suddenly their loved ones are back again, not knowing anything has happened. Awkward!

And this would sort of undermine all the great religions of the world since apparently these folks didn't go to heaven or hell as promised, they were just gone. Lots of folks would try to rationalize it (God knew they were coming back, so he put their souls in deep freeze, etc.) Some might buy it, but most would not. Double Awkward!

I'm sure people will adjust. What's even more awkward is that the returned people are 5 years younger than those who remained (e.g., Ant-man's daughter is no longer a little girl), just like in the NBC TV show 'Manifest.'

@ScottWashburn and @28mm Fabatik : my thoughts exactly.

It was all done to accommodate Tony Stark – but it doesn't make sense. All the unsnapped have aged, a lot of people will find strangers living in their home ("hey, honey, now that half the world has gone we can actually afford a mansion in the city"). And, yeah, a lot of upset people would have hooked up with new partners for whatever reason.

Oops…..messy.

Presumably the next Marvel film will just be the Hulk giving marriage counselling.

I pity the non-super soldier serum Falcon in his new career path. He's going to get beaten up, a lot.

Yup

I also thought the solution left rather a lot of paradoxes floating around

Actually, between Thanos from the Past coming to the future and well…

He can no longer do what he did to start this off in the first place.

Then you have Captain America who decides to hosed up everything by spending 50 or so years with Agent Carter.

Yup that didn't mess any timelines at all.

Yup that didn't mess any timelines at all.

Nope, because the kids of the old Peggy Carter in 'Captain America: Winter Soldier' were his all along: link

Yup maybe, but how did Cap A get to be both frozen to be awoken in the future and also live out a whole unfrozen life with Agent Carter ? That would require two of them. Is that what the film meant to say?

I also don't buy the "put them back at the same time as they were taken" – at a quantum level there's going to be an inaccuracy in timing. How big of an error bar is allowed before there is a change in history ? A nanosecond? A second? Ten seconds ? A minute?

With 6 billion people a lot can happen in a minute – even more so when that minute is during an alien invasion.

Read the Forbes article I linked to earlier by Mark Hughes and all will become clear. It's an interesting read even if you don't buy his arguments: link

So Cap got to spend his life with his long-lost love, Peggy Carter, without messing up any of the original timeline. And even in that alternate timeline, there was a different Cap who fought in World War II and then fell into the ice and vanished, who would also eventually be revived in the 2000s, go on to join the Avengers, and help save the world from Thanos.

As for how tight a timeframe Cap has to place the stones back and not alter the timeline, I try not to overanalyze it. After all it's just a movie so let's accept it as science "fiction" and leave it at that.

Yup maybe, but how did Cap A get to be both frozen to be awoken in the future and also live out a whole unfrozen life with Agent Carter?

Well he was frozen in Ice for all of those years and when he went back in time for the second time it was his future self who did that.

He then spent 50+ years with Agent Carter, which probably change so many timelines that you cannot count them.

Read the Forbes article I linked to earlier by Mark Hughes and all will become clear.

Not really since that is from the Hollywood writers and they have no clue at all.

You cannot do away with the past Thanos before he can snap his fingers that caused 50% of everything to go away.

Because if you do that then what happened five years before never happened.

And it still doesn't get around the other issue – to keep Tony happy everyone comes back "today" only today is 5 years after they went.

Some of the people will come back and find that their families (the ones that didn't go with the Thanos click) have died or…..

It's nice for Tony and all – but pretty selfish for the other 6 billion people. And that's just on Earth!

You cannot do away with the past Thanos before he can snap his fingers that caused 50% of everything to go away.

That's the old 'Back to the Future' time travel paradigm which doesn't apply to 'Endgame.' They changed the "present" (i.e. 5 years after the snap in their timeline) by beating Thanos to the stones and defeating him in the "present." 'Endgame' doesn't follow the rules in earlier time-travel movies like BTTF.

And besides, who's to say there isn't an alternate timeline/parallel universe with a different team of Avengers in which Thanos still succeeded? We don't know. All we know is what happened in this timeline and universe.

And it still doesn't get around the other issue – to keep Tony happy everyone comes back "today" only today is 5 years after they went.

Some of the people will come back and find that their families (the ones that didn't go with the Thanos click) have died or…..

It's nice for Tony and all – but pretty selfish for the other 6 billion people. And that's just on Earth!

Except it was never about "keeping Tony (Stark) happy." Tony would gladly go back 5 years to stop Thanos and refight the Infinity War if that would make a difference. This means he would not get to marry Pepper and have a daughter but he's not that selfish. Remember what Professor Hulk said about changing the present reality in the past when Warmachine suggested that they just go back in time to kill baby Thanos? It can't be done because it doesn't work that way. In other words, the present sad state-of-affairs can only be changed in the present (5 years after the snap).

I seem to recall Tony insisting that whatever they did would not affect the existence of his daughter. And the others agreed.

But no matter how you cut it, the reappearance of all the 'snapped' people 5 years after they vanished is going to cause a universe of problems.

But no matter how you cut it, the reappearance of all the 'snapped' people 5 years after they vanished is going to cause a universe of problems.

I can only imagine all the headaches and complications the 5-year gap would create. But still, if we ask the 50 percent who remained after the snap whether they would like the other 50 percent back if it means the "disappeareds" would not have aged a day when they come back, most of them would probably say "yes." Even Cap, who seemed to have moved on and adjusted to the post-snap world compared to Black Widow, jumped at the second chance to make things right.

The bottom line is, had they gone back 5 years and succeeded in preventing Thanos from making the snap, all they would have done is to create an alternate branching timeline that has nothing to do with and has no bearing to their own timeline and reality. That's a big no-no. Refer to the scene in which Tilda Swinton's Ancient One schooled Hulk's aura or chi.

They changed the "present"

Thing is they cannot impact the past to change their present.

Which is actually what they did.

To get where they where Thanos has to snap his fingers 5+ years in their past.

That does not happen due to them destroying Thanos before he does what he has to do for them to be where they are at 5+ years after he snaps his fingers.

cause a universe of problems

Yup, like World Leaders who went away 5+ years before and have been replaced.

The same goes for CEO's and many other individuals.

They totally hosed up the timelines of everyone.

The only true way to fix everything is for none of it to have happen in the first place.

So Thanos never snaps his fingers because he realize that doing it does not change anything.

But that is not what happened in the movie and the timelines are totally hosed over.

Thing is they cannot impact the past to change their present.

Which is actually what they did.

Actually they didn't. They did not alter the past. That's precisely why Cap had to replace the stones at the exact times and places they were taken so that the branching timelines created would resume their original course.

Defeating Thanos in the present didn't change the past because Infinity War in effect never happened after Thanos of 2014 (pre-Infinity War) followed the Avengers to the present (thereby skipping the year when Infinity War occurred) and end up getting defeated in the one-in-14 million outcomes Doctor Strange was referring to.

However, this isn't to say that there weren't any unplanned mishaps whatsoever. Multiverses can be very interesting: link

They did not alter the past. That's precisely why Cap had to replace the stones at the exact times and places they were taken so that the branching timelines created would resume their original course.

Which would have the Thanos of the past find each and everyone one of those stones and then snap his fingers.

Well that is hard to do when the Thanos of the past comes to the future and gets destroyed.

In order to have the their future Thanos needs to get the stones which he never does.

Traveling in Time has lots of Catch 22's.

Which would have the Thanos of the past find each and everyone one of those stones and then snap his fingers.

It won't and here's why. When the past Thanos of 2014 followed the Avengers to the future (5 years after the snap) to stop them from undoing his snap and got turned into dust by Iron Man, he ceased to exist altogether in this particular timeline and universe. He wouldn't just "reset" in the past in the same timeline/universe to start all over again like some character in a video game. It's the same reason why Tony Stark can't be brought back by restoring the stones at their rightful times and places in the past.

If the mere fact that Thanos ceased to exist in this particular timeline and universe meant that an alternate branching universe was created at some point in this timeline, then the Thanos in that alternate universe would be an entirely different Thanos who has no bearing in this universe. Loki's escape in 2012 New York likely already created an alternate timeline/universe according to the Russos. The Ancient One may not like it, but the multiverse is canon in Marvel Comics.

Y'all forgot future Nebula killing past Nebula. And so did the writers. Oops.
Other gaping hole is that the Ancient One says that the absence of the stones would trigger an alternate timeline with Really Bad Things Happening (worse, apparently, than half of the Universe's living population disappearing)…yet in that same timeline, Thanos destroys the stones! So that means Thanos would trigger the RBTH effect…and that RBTH effect is now in place for the current Universe, as the timeline isn't supposed to have changed…cue another Really Big Oops.

he ceased to exist altogether in this particular timeline and universe. He wouldn't just "reset"

Correct but he also would not be able to impact their past.

So if he ceased to exist then their past never happened.