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"10 solutions to the Fermi Paradox" Topic


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Bowman02 Apr 2018 4:48 p.m. PST

Sci-Fi author John Michael Godier's take on the Fermi Paradox. The video is only 15 minutes long and may be interesting to some of you.

YouTube link

Mithmee02 Apr 2018 5:53 p.m. PST

Here is the wiki on just what Fermi Paradox is.

link

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian03 Apr 2018 10:38 a.m. PST

Seems like 15 hours long…

Bowman03 Apr 2018 4:49 p.m. PST

Some attention span you have there, Bill.wink

Mithmee03 Apr 2018 7:56 p.m. PST

I would agree with Bill that guy is long winded and should have covered these tens items in around 5 minutes.

Bowman04 Apr 2018 6:00 a.m. PST

Mmmmm………

And here I'm reading Liu Cixin's Sci-Fi trilogy, of which "The Dark Forest" is reason #18 on the Wiki page.

By "long winded" I assume you mean thoughtful, well reasoned explanation. To each their own, I guess.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP06 Apr 2018 6:16 a.m. PST

I honestly don't have a 15 minute window to spare right now.

The most likely reasons are:
1. They are communicating; we're just not listening.
(There's a lot of Universe out there to have to listen to, and a lot of potential ways to listen.)

2. They are communicating; we just can't understand them or they us.
(Our intelligence and their intelligence are so different in thought that neither can recognize the other's communication as a rational message.)

3. They're not on our frequency, Kenneth.
(They and we use different communication technology which arise from different assumptions as to how an intelligent race will communicate at interstellar distances. In other words, metaphorically we're making phone calls and they're sending faxes.)

4. They follow the Prime Directive.
(We're not advanced enough for them to want to contact.)

5. We're not interesting enough to talk to.
(And would we kindly shut up?)

6. It's too hard.
(Meaningful interstellar communication is effectively impossible. Yes, EM works, but by the time it gets there the people who sent it are dead, so what's the point? Yes, this one is depressing.)

7. We're the first.
(Somebody has to be, at least in the region to which we can reasonably expect to communicate. A telephone is a great thing, but there has to be one at the place you wish to call. We're still waiting for them to install theirs.)

I think the rest assume too much or are too wildly fanciful. (A zoo?!? An enclosed simulation?!? Universal mass suicide?!? Xenocidal Berserkers?!? Really?!?)

Bowman10 Apr 2018 11:39 a.m. PST

Hi and thanks for responding.

"I honestly don't have a 15 minute window to spare right now."

Lol! I bet this took longer to write up.

"The most likely reasons are:"

To be fair, the video and author describe the most unsettling reasons, not necessarily the most likely.

"1. They are communicating; we're just not listening.
(There's a lot of Universe out there to have to listen to, and a lot of potential ways to listen.)
2. They are communicating; we just can't understand them or they us.
(Our intelligence and their intelligence are so different in thought that neither can recognize the other's communication as a rational message.)
3. They're not on our frequency, Kenneth.
(They and we use different communication technology which arise from different assumptions as to how an intelligent race will communicate at interstellar distances. In other words, metaphorically we're making phone calls and they're sending faxes.)"

I've linked these three together as they are similar. I'm not sure about this. Your analogy may be apt, but it presupposes that both civilizations have electrical power, us to work our phones, and them to work their faxes. Regardless of the specific technology employed, every civilization will be on the lookout for radiation. They may be biologically different from us to "see" different parts of the spectrum. But everyone will need of monitor radio signals. Everything gives of fields of some type, including technology. If we get a blast of alien radio waves we will know it. It won't look like radio waves from the sun, or other from other natural sources.

Understanding and comprehension is a different matter. Sensibly, aliens would need to send something that other aliens could translate properly. Mathematics would be the way to go. Things like the concept of Pi, or prime numbers come to mind.

"4. They follow the Prime Directive.
(We're not advanced enough for them to want to contact.)
5. We're not interesting enough to talk to.
(And would we kindly shut up?)"

I've linked these together with the Zoo idea that you made fun of. To me, they are all part of a "Sequestration" concept. They know of us but choose not to contact us at all, or not quite yet, or whatever. This relies on the aliens attitude towards us, something we can't know.

"6. It's too hard.
(Meaningful interstellar communication is effectively impossible. Yes, EM works, but by the time it gets there the people who sent it are dead, so what's the point? Yes, this one is depressing.)"

This is a critical one. The Universe is very, very, very, big. Incomprehensibly so. So we are either too far away, or we are too far away, or too close in time. Two civilizations that exist simultaneously, may have more difficulty contacting each other.
Also the resources to contact each other and have a "conversation" would be enormous. Just acceleration things to a fraction of c is very hard.

"7. We're the first.
(Somebody has to be, at least in the region to which we can reasonably expect to communicate. A telephone is a great thing, but there has to be one at the place you wish to call. We're still waiting for them to install theirs.)"

I like this one too. We are amongst the first. The Universe is about 13.8 billion years old. The first stars may have formed about 200 million years after the BB. But were they the type of stars we need to see? Most stars are red dwarf suns and these were the very first stars in existence. These stars burn so low that they can last for a trillion years. This does us no good. We need proper big or dwarf yellow stars to burn out and produce carbon soot. Then our system has to for inside one of those soot clouds. Then a few billion years later we are here.
Chances are, we are amongst the first carbon rich planets that formed by a star……around 4.5 billion years ago. An early yellow dwarf, which lived about 8-9 billion years had to burn up and create the carbon that became us 4.5 billion years after the Earth formed. By my math, that puts us close to right now, give or take a few hundred million years.

"I think the rest assume too much or are too wildly fanciful. (A zoo?!? An enclosed simulation?!? Universal mass suicide?!? Xenocidal Berserkers?!? Really?!?)"

Yep really……or maybe.

The "artificial simulation" idea is interesting. Universal Mass suicide? I would say if humankind doesn't become a space faring species it is exactly because we blew ourselves to oblivion beforehand. Or we destroyed the Earth before we could escape off of it. The Zoo is part of the Sequestration concept. Xenocidal Berserkers? Depends on the environment that the aliens grew up within, doesn't it? Xenocidal bellicosity can be simply a product of the species' aggressiveness that it needed to survive and evolve. If we went to a wonderful planet that could support us, but there was an intelligent but highly peaceful and passive lifeform on it, would that stand in the way of us fully exploiting their planet?

For example, take the xenomorphs from the Alien series of films. Besides a growth rate that defies the Laws of Thermodynamics, they don't act that much different from a terrestrial Ghila Monster or a Piranha. Apparently, the later sequels tell us that they are intelligent. What if in a few hundred thousand years later they develop space travel? My guess is that they wouldn't survive as a species in their atomic age.

I'm not being argumentative, just back and forth speculation and thanks again for that. Nice to have something interesting to talk about on the Climate Change Denial Board.

Bowman10 Apr 2018 11:56 a.m. PST

Or…..

….life could actually be rare, so no need of a Fermi Paradox. One possible problem is the lack of phosphorus in parts of the cosmos. This is based on the study of two stars….not a big sample size. All life on Earth relies on it. But then again, we evolved here…..where there is sufficient phosphorus. Or is that too anthropocentric (Gaia-centric?) a viewpoint?

link

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2018 12:55 p.m. PST

I write quickly. wink

1-2-3.) You didn't deal with "not listening/not looking in the right place." Also, there is always the possibility that a civilization has abandoned radio emission tech for something else, like lasers (on the mundane side), or some sort of quantum-level transmission method we haven't thought of yet and therefore don't watch for and/or can't receive. This links to 4 and 6, as they might be more interested in finding intelligence/technological advancement on a par with their own and so are ignoring radio bursts, or simply gave up listening to radio bursts ages ago as not being with the bother.

Zoo: on this one, I was largely referring to the notion of a "sealed area of space with primitives to observe," as opposed to simply "people we don't talk to." They're linked, but not the same.

I tend to suspect we're either not pointing our radio receivers at the right portion of sky, or haven't processed the data yet, or that we're the first/concurrent and the distance/time delay is just too great. Although there is always the very slight possibility that one of the truly unexplained UFO reports is in fact evidence of an advanced alien culture at least "peeking in" on our tiny sliver of the Galaxy. Emphasis on "slight."

Glad to chat on this, too!

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP10 Apr 2018 1:03 p.m. PST

On the phosphorous point: True, the whole thing about life is that it may well require extremely specific conditions so complex and singular in nature that the odds of it are tremendously improbable. We may well be "it," (which seems an awful waste of space, as one scientist put it). Or we may be effectively "it" wth regards to any portion of the Galaxy we can reasonably expect to explore or examine (sort of like polar bears and penguins; they have similar habitats, but they'll never meet to share one, except in Coke commercials).

Of course, I really don't like that answer. I want there to be aliens, and not too far away. But I also want them to be more ET or Vulcan than the dangerous other kinds! laugh

Bowman10 Apr 2018 2:12 p.m. PST

I write quickly. wink

Ahh yes…..I forgot you do this for a living. If you saw me pounding at the keyboard with my two index fingers you'd crack up laughing.

I tend to suspect we're either not pointing our radio receivers at the right portion of sky, or haven't processed the data yet, or that we're the first/concurrent and the distance/time delay is just too great.

Sounds about right.

We may well be "it," (which seems an awful waste of space, as one scientist put it).

The probability is such that there are many, many alien intelligences in just our galaxy. The chance that there is non-sentient microbial life in our Solar System is still possible. It's a numbers game.

As for phosphorus, well all complex life (non-viral)on Earth needs Adenosine Tri-Phosphate as the main energy source. Clip off a phosphate group and Kapow! Lots of energy is released. But then all life evolved here, on a phosphate rich planet. On another, phosphate poor planet, other chemical mechanisms may come into play. Life as we know it couldn't exist, but then we don't know much.

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