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"The aliens are silent because they're dead" Topic


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Tango0124 Mar 2017 10:18 p.m. PST

"In research aiming to understand how life might develop, the scientists realized new life would commonly die out due to runaway heating or cooling on their fledgling planets.

"The universe is probably filled with habitable planets, so many scientists think it should be teeming with aliens," said Dr Aditya Chopra from the ANU Research School of Earth Sciences and lead author on the paper, which is published in Astrobiology.

"Early life is fragile, so we believe it rarely evolves quickly enough to survive."

"Most early planetary environments are unstable. To produce a habitable planet, life forms need to regulate greenhouse gases such as water and carbon dioxide to keep surface temperatures stable."…"
Main page
link

Amicalement
Armand

Cacique Caribe25 Mar 2017 2:34 a.m. PST

I think they're afraid of catching the attention of a giant planet-eating slug that homes in on radio signals and other long range communications.

There's one headed for us right now!!! And there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. :)

Dan

picture

picture

Also: link

Bowman25 Mar 2017 4:35 a.m. PST

Much of the problem with life in the universe is the age right now. The age is too young to have large amounts of carbon distributed enough to form life. Carbon, as far as one can tell, only is produced from destroyed stars.

It seems that 88% of all stars are red dwarfs and brown dwarfs and are very long lived………some perhaps trillions of years.

link

Luck plays a big part. Our yellow dwarf sun formed in an area of sufficient "star soot" to provide our planets with enough carbon to form the complex molecules necessary for life.

Patrick R25 Mar 2017 5:37 a.m. PST

Here's my hypothesis :

We as humans all underestimate the size and timescales of the universe.

Life may be highly common, intelligent life is probably not at all common.

Evolution gives no special priority to intelligence. There is a special threshold that you either stumble over or die trying to reach. Once you're over you can achieve things like we did and do. Again, there is no special protection, no immunity, you can still die off in the blink of an eye.

Intelligence in the wider scope of evolution isn't a goal to achieve, evolution doesn't work that way, it's just an ace up the sleeve, and you just hope it's played at the right time.

Now imagine a large screen, once in a while a random pixel will turn on, it will remain on for a certain amount of time then fade again. Each pixel emits a signal that travels outward from that pixel at a certain speed, that signal also gets weaker as time goes on.

If your screen is large enough we could spend a large amount of time before two pixels are close enough for signals from one pixel to reach the other pixel, those two know now they are not alone, but the vast majority of pixels may appear and fade so far away from other pixels that they never get any signals or signals reach them after they faded.

It may be that signals from other worlds reached us when the dinosaurs or the Assyrians were around or that the nearest signal is still inbound or hasn't even been broadcast yet.

The size and timescale mean that most intelligent aliens almost never find a neighbor close enough for the time they are around.

Great War Ace25 Mar 2017 9:28 a.m. PST

It seems that "God" prefers the intimacy of isolation. The universe is set up that way. At least so it seems. When we meet it will only increase our problems. So why would we want to meet?

Tango0125 Mar 2017 10:57 a.m. PST

(smile)


Amicalement
Armand

alien BLOODY HELL surfer25 Mar 2017 10:59 a.m. PST

Alien's are dead? someone forgot to tell me!!

Cacique Caribe25 Mar 2017 12:36 p.m. PST

So the ones abducting people must be transhuman time travelers then!!! :)

Dan

picture

picture

Terrement25 Mar 2017 2:52 p.m. PST

Can't believe you are still falling for that 'greys" nonsense. Not only are we not dead, we are quite active.

We look like this
link

but you see us looking like this, most of the time

picture

Cacique Caribe25 Mar 2017 10:59 p.m. PST

That link didn't work for me.

Dan

jah195626 Mar 2017 5:49 a.m. PST

The problem is that if Einstein was right FLT is impossible (the amount of power needed ) Therefore no multi planet empires and if we make any contact it will be almost one way. Also the lack of radio waves does not rule out the lack of higher life forms and life could be non carbon.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP27 Mar 2017 7:12 a.m. PST

Einstein's Theory of Relativity doesn't "rule out" FTL travel; it rules out light speed travel by Newtonian means, as the energy required to accelerate matter to the speed of light is inifinite. However, there are potential ways around this that align with the theory, the Alcubierre warp drive concept being one of them, which is based on the fact that while matter cannot be accelerated to (and therefore past) the speed of light, a region of spacetime can. Such a "warp bubble" would carry along any matter within it, producing effective FTL. The big question then, is how to do it.

One current proposal has an interesting side effect, which is the possibility it might create a massive lethal "bow shock" of gamma rays that would be released in front of it upon arrival at a destination, which rather defeats the goal of peaceful contact with alien life. On the other hand, we still don't know what causes the known "gamma ray bursts" that have travelled through different parts of the galaxy… Maybe some alien race built a warp drive and failed to consider the gamma ray bow wave, or didn't care… Or use it as a weapon…

Bowman27 Mar 2017 7:37 a.m. PST

…….and life could be non carbon.

Could be…..theoretically.

We have to assume life requires complex molecules, because you need to build very complex things in order to have life. Carbon is perfect as it has four valence bonds and can bond to itself. However a quick look at the periodic table shows that silicon can do so too. Therefore, it has been postulated as a "base chemical" for an alternative type of life.

But that is about it. The bonds between carbon atoms have the perfect balance of stability and reactivity. In other words, carbon based molecules can exist in stable environments, but given a bit of energy, easily break these bonds to form numerous more bonds with other elements. Hence, a stable set of chemicals that can be formed and reformed in endless ways.

Not so with silicon. It tends to form crystalline lattices instead of long chains. More importantly, the silicon bonds take a lot of energy to break. Any creature made of silicon would have a very, very low level of metabolism.

Martin From Canada and I met up at a wargaming convention last weekend and were discussing this topic. I told him that to us, a silicon based lifeform would be indistinguishable from a rock or a crystal. He added that the signs of it being alive would be indistinguishable from normal external processes like weathering or erosion.

So we can't rule out that the Mars rovers are obliviously driving over living silicon based organisms right now, in their exploration of the planet. If so, the silicon based life forms would also be oblivious to that fact.

Personally, I'm with JJ and think aliens have a better chance of being John Smallberries or John Ya-Ya.

Bowman27 Mar 2017 7:43 a.m. PST

Right you are Parzival. And don't forget Einstein-Rosen Bridges, or as they are more popularly know as "wormholes"

link

They could be the "rabbit hole" for a future space faring Alice. Maybe one day we will be building our own.

Bowman27 Mar 2017 7:48 a.m. PST

Now that I think of it, we could be constantly visited by silicon based life forms. But we call them meteorites. We seem to be more interested in the carbon based objects that hitch a ride upon or within them. An anthropogenic form of carbon bias?

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP27 Mar 2017 1:59 p.m. PST

"I don't understand, Captain. This blue watery planet has immense deposits of life-crystal, but not a single sign of life, much less intelligent life. All I can find are those carbon processes running amok, as usual. We're getting life emissions left and right, but they're all coming from these otherwise inert boxes in the middle of carbon-heavy zones. I can't rule out the possibility they are some pre-crystalic form that could eventually develop into life forms, but the emissions are too erratic and frankly non-sensical."

"Do you have any examples of these emissions?"

"Certainly. Some of them even appear in regular patterns, and have a vibrational component."

"Really? Please demonstrate."

Musical and audio intro to "Dancing With the Stars" plays.

"Hmmf. Well, whatever that is, it's certainly no sign of intelligence."

evil grin

Cacique Caribe27 Mar 2017 3:50 p.m. PST

I can just see it now …

A huge worm hole opens up just on the other side of our Moon, and out pours a massive fleet of some really menacing-looking alien warships.

And, as the world turns to the scientific community for urgent answers and help, the focus of all their internal debates turns to … arguing whether or not FTL is a scientific possibility. Lol

Dan

Patrick R27 Mar 2017 4:26 p.m. PST

The problem is when people discuss ideas like FTL they have no idea about the scales involved.

"Some day we'll work it out." Is more easily said than done. It might well be that the theory requires things that simply cannot be achieved, for instance requiring materials that exceed the laws of physics or in such quantities that we'd have to convert several entire solar systems. It may be that we require more energy sustained for a certain period than our own sun can deliver in its entire lifetime.

It's not a matter of getting there eventually, going faster than light while theoretically possible might need things that exceed those of our universe and laws of physics.

It's not because we think we overcame things that seemed hard in the past the stakes can't go up beyond our reach, no matter how much time, money and effort we can to spend on it.

Bowman27 Mar 2017 4:34 p.m. PST

And, as the world turns to the scientific community for urgent answers and help…….

Why would any one turn to scientists for help when an invasion fleet shows up on the other side of the Moon? That only happens in the movies. Have you ever taken a single science course past the high school level? I have taken quite a few and "fighting the aliens in case they show up" was never in the curriculum.

But never fear, Dan. I've up loaded some viruses into my Mac laptop just in case, and I have Jeff Goldblum on speed dial.

… arguing whether or not FTL is a scientific possibility. Lol

To be fair the discussion is about whether it is a possibility for us at our current understanding. It's not about aliens millions of years more advanced than us that can manipulate worm holes. That's a given.

Bowman27 Mar 2017 4:45 p.m. PST

Musical and audio intro to "Dancing With the Stars" plays.

"Hmmf. Well, whatever that is, it's certainly no sign of intelligence."

I agree with you but I'm afraid the Silicon based Captain and his Silicon based underling in the spaceship would not. The musical interlude would last only a picosecond relative to the very slow speed of their neural pathways and wouldn't register at all to them.

Then again, there are some benefits. SIlicon aliens don't need FLT. What's travelling hundreds of thousand of our years throughout space to something that acts and behaves just like a rock?

Bowman27 Mar 2017 5:40 p.m. PST

It's not because we think we overcame things that seemed hard in the past the stakes can't go up beyond our reach, no matter how much time, money and effort we can to spend on it.

Patrick, I am in agreement with what you say.

However, your last line made me think of Robert Browning's poem, Andrea del Sarto:

"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, Or what's a heaven for?"

link

The fear of failure should never deflect our striving.

Cacique Caribe27 Mar 2017 6:30 p.m. PST

@Bowman: "Have you ever taken a single science course past the high school level? I have taken quite a few and 'fighting the aliens in case they show up' was never in the curriculum."

Lol. You never disappoint.

Dan

jah195628 Mar 2017 9:08 a.m. PST

Sorry please see FTL new topic

Patrick R28 Mar 2017 9:18 a.m. PST

As things stand now we'll probably have to do things the hard way rather than snap our fingers, hop onto the Millennium Falcon and reach any planet in our galaxy in a matter of hours, more easily than taking a bus to the next town.

It's going to be a project of a scope that exceeds that of building cathedrals in that it will span several if not many lifetimes. We might reach the nearest starts in the next few centuries. Our own solar system will probably be our backyard for the forseeable future.

Meanwhile we should be able to build craft that can reach a fraction of lightspeed and maybe even 1% of lightspeed. Which means that we can reach the nearest star in some 450 years. Ten percent of lightspeed would put that same star at only 45 years, of course something traveling that fast is going to encounter problems like hitting atoms with such force that while not lethal in itself any form of shielding might start to glow white hot after a certain distance. Any impact bigger than a grain of sand would be like being hit by a missile. Of course the more shielding you have, the more energy you need to move it …

If we want to send people we may have to use radical methods such as keeping embryo's on board until twenty years before arrival and train them to perform the necessary tasks before sending back useful information. Of course if we want to settle on other planets we'll have to send robot probes first which may require a wait for another 500-odd years before the data comes in and we can finally send people IF the planet on the other end is in any way or form inhabitable. So a quick trip at 1% lightspeed with prior recon work might end up taking 1000 years before we finally get the green light. That's for our nearest star, try to get 75 light years and we're talking something like a timescale longer than our own civilization.

We can hope that in the interval interstellar vessels do get faster and we find ways to avoid the pitfalls to maybe reach something like 50% of lightspeed.

And for those who do assume we will get easy to use FTL travel it may be easy in some regards, but the end result might not be to our liking. We may for instance be able to open a wormhole, but not control where it ends, odds are the other end is in the middle of intergalactic space, millions of lightyears from other galaxies … It's probably interesting to send a few probes, but if 90% of the time our attempts to open a wormhole end up in empty space far away from any star, we're still stuck.

I don't want to sound like a downer, but we are not space scale, our lifespan and fragility is such that going out there doesn't work for us, but maybe in the future our descendants will be radically different and far better prepared to explore space than we ever could.

And who knows, maybe they will keep a few old-school humans around to fully appreciate what the others have achieved.

For me the saddest thing is that we were born too late to explore the world and much too early to explore the stars.

Great War Ace28 Mar 2017 9:30 a.m. PST

There is always the mind. The imagination never sleeps. The body is just a machine to house the imagination. So time travel or any other fancy is just as real to an imagination here and now as it will be millennia in the future.

I see our "scale" in the universe as analogous to life teeming inside a single dew drop on the edge of a leaf at sunrise, about to disconnect and fall in the equally dew flecked grass below. There is no way that any life connected with that single dew drop can interface with the "distant" life in other dew drops: much less notice anything beyond the existence of other dew drops, which greater existence includes me looking at the pregnant dew drop as it hangs further and further toward its disconnecting point/moment. I watch it finally drop and disappear in the wet grass. I stand upright and continue my morning walk. And on that single dew drop that I had focused my brief attention, life continues for countless billions of their years, oblivious of the actual reality beyond their "scale": but, possessing imaginations, they imagine me "out there" having watched billions of their years go by, in less than a minute of my time………

jah195628 Mar 2017 3:33 p.m. PST

Patrick R So sad but so true I am sorry to say. Our only hope is some peace loving ET takes pity on us and gives us a FTL drive or the nearest possible thing.

Personal logo Parzival Supporting Member of TMP29 Mar 2017 12:47 p.m. PST

What's traveling hundreds of thousands of our years throughout space to something that acts and behaves just like a rock?

It's all a question of motivation: YouTube link
evil grin

Personal logo piper909 Supporting Member of TMP29 Mar 2017 1:35 p.m. PST

Cosmic thread, man.

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