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""Alternative Facts"?" Topic

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693 hits since 22 Jan 2017
©1994-2018 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

altfritz22 Jan 2017 2:09 p.m. PST

Can somebody explain what "Alternative Facts" might be? Is that the same as "counter-factual"?

Martin from Canada22 Jan 2017 2:54 p.m. PST

Blatant and easily verifiable lie?

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP22 Jan 2017 3:01 p.m. PST

Mine don't agree with yours?

napthyme Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Jan 2017 3:08 p.m. PST

would be the same as a fact based narrative.

Martin from Canada22 Jan 2017 5:04 p.m. PST

Saying something so untruthful to make Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf look like a mere fibber.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP22 Jan 2017 5:16 p.m. PST

Well and perhaps this is the common example everyone is quoting at the moment is :

Alternative Fact : the crowd on the left has more people than the one on the right


If one accepts this "alternative fact" then one is accepting what is either what we used to call a plain lie, or perhaps more worryingly, is showing an example of self-delusion.

Someone could bluster and rant and demand that the crowd on the left is bigger – but it isn't and to do that would make such a person appear to be rather silly.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP22 Jan 2017 6:54 p.m. PST

Fact: In 1775, American colonists rebelled against
the Crown.

Alternative Fact: in 1775, American colonists IN
NEW ENGLAND fought troops of the Crown who sought
to confiscate their weapons and powder.

Zyphyr22 Jan 2017 7:18 p.m. PST

20thmaine, clearly all the people in right picture are either really fat or wearing fat suits while the people in the left picture are all really skinny. That let's them fit more people in while simultaneously using much less space.

Not that I am stupid enough to believe that.

Personal logo Cacique Caribe Supporting Member of TMP22 Jan 2017 7:41 p.m. PST

Oh man. Alternative facts! Now that's creative. :)

Who asked this joker22 Jan 2017 8:23 p.m. PST

Actually, Ed, the two facts you gave are of the same thing. One is a more detailed subset of the other.

Jakar Nilson22 Jan 2017 9:44 p.m. PST

Truthiness. That's what they are.

GarrisonMiniatures Inactive Member22 Jan 2017 11:54 p.m. PST

A fact is a fact. If there is an alternative fact to the original then the original can't be a fact. Therefore an alternative fact is either impossible or simply a different fact.

On that basis, an alternative fact is, whether deliberate or not, is simply a non-fact. Probably better defined as a lie.

goragrad23 Jan 2017 12:25 a.m. PST

There is one question on that example 20thMaine – what are the timestamps?

Is that an alternative apple being compared to an orange?

Personally I prefer to know my alternatives when arguing facts…

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP23 Jan 2017 6:32 a.m. PST

They are meant to be the same place same time

This larger set shows the acceptance speech side by side


The New York Times analysis is here : link

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member23 Jan 2017 8:23 a.m. PST

Remember that the OED chose "post-truth" as 2016's word of the year.

Any guesses for 2017?

KTravlos24 Jan 2017 12:10 p.m. PST

We area deeply divided people. Deeply divided people do not have facts. Empirical reality exists, but if we cannot agree on how to interpret its existence, it might as well not. If I drop a rock on you it will hurt, but that will not resolve the issue of me calling it a rock, and you calling it a feather if we disagree what feather and rock is.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP24 Jan 2017 4:25 p.m. PST

It is a bizarre thing when someone can stand in the rain and then later declare "it was not raining, in fact it was sunny". What is there possibly to gain from doing something like this?

It doesn't matter a jot if someone got rained on – that's nature for you and no-one will judge someone badly for having got a little wet. So why this need to tell an alternative fact? I don't understand it.

skippy0001 Supporting Member of TMP25 Jan 2017 12:11 a.m. PST

Goebbels would be proud. Go ahead DH me.

mandt225 Jan 2017 6:18 a.m. PST

What the heck does "Goebbels" have to do with this discussion?

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP25 Jan 2017 2:16 p.m. PST

An acknowledged Master of Untrue Propaganda.

A.K.A. alternative facts.

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member25 Jan 2017 2:19 p.m. PST

Same question from me,mandt. Goebbels once explained that his success lay in mixing four truths with one lie. Not the other way round.

All the great propagandists learn this lesson.

Personal logo 20thmaine Supporting Member of TMP25 Jan 2017 3:39 p.m. PST

The problem I see is that some "alternative facts" actually demand action to resolve them.

For example – if 3 million people vote illegally in an election and the officials overseeing the voting say this didn't happen then doesn't this require at the very least :

1) Official investigations to find out how this was possible
2) major law enforcement effort to catch 3 million fraudsters
3) 3 million trials – and a massive prison building effort
4) major law enforcement action to investigate why a vast number of the election officials are lying – followed up
with…more trials and more prison building.

Because…if it is true and not an "alternative fact" then it is surely a serious and unacceptable dereliction of duty to do nothing about it. One might say a criminal dereliction of duty.

Or did I miss something?

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member25 Jan 2017 3:59 p.m. PST

Amazon reports sales of "1984" are up--10,000%.

charared Supporting Member of TMP25 Jan 2017 8:26 p.m. PST

Ah, Politics…

Ain't it Grand?

evil grin

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member25 Jan 2017 10:59 p.m. PST

Aw,let's stop talking and go have an ice cream!


Tyler32626 Jan 2017 6:01 a.m. PST

Watch any " mainstream media" station and you will see all the alternative facts to fill a room! LOL

Hafen von Schlockenberg Inactive Member03 Feb 2017 4:42 p.m. PST

Next up: "Phony Outrage".

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