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"Just to gently annoy GWA" Topic


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371 hits since 12 Jun 2016
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP12 Jun 2016 12:02 p.m. PST

Mostly because the headline is very cool (I know the article is from 2015. But I hadn't seen it before)
link

Winston Smith Supporting Member of TMP12 Jun 2016 12:56 p.m. PST

Faith and Begorrah!
They'll be making gunpowder next!

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP12 Jun 2016 3:28 p.m. PST

It won't annoy GWA at all.

To him all thinking and sapience boils down to one thing……..recursive thought. If you don't do that, then you are "as dumb as rocks" and that your "intellect is closer to that of a bug than it is ours". I believe those were the phrases he used to describe chimps.

TMP link

jpattern212 Jun 2016 5:27 p.m. PST

Too true, Bowman.

Personal logo Great War Ace Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2016 7:03 a.m. PST

Accurate quoting of my extreme statements. I stand by them, extreme though they are.

"Chimpanzee and monkey stone tools look very primitive. But then again, our ancestors' stone tools were just as primitive too, long ago."

And when our asserted ancestors were using mere rocks to crack open food, were there contemporary cave paintings? Musical instruments? Burial of their dead? No.

So saying that "humans" once used "very primitive" stone tools is merely an assertion. Once we "became" human, all that went away?

There is no proto sapience. The evidences for it just appear all at once, everything together.

Sapience includes complex tools, musical instruments, ritual burials, paintings. Nothing of the sort attaches to any other species. No intermediate progress toward that is evident in any other species. There are no "proto sapience" species evolving alongside of us yet behind us.

Ah, the "bigger brain equals smarter" assertion, rears up again.

I believe that chimps show different latent talents compared to humans. But sapience isn't one of them.

If it were a shared trait, even in a proto state, wouldn't we see apes using "tools" to whack each other over the head? A rock is a very effective weapon. A club is too. But I have never read/heard of any apes using weapons. They'll throw things while making a ruckus. No real effort is made to use missiles as weapons.

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2016 10:40 a.m. PST

So saying that "humans" once used "very primitive" stone tools is merely an assertion. Once we "became" human, all that went away?

There is no proto sapience. The evidences for it just appear all at once, everything together.

Sorry but the archeological record indicates the opposite. Our direct Hominid predecessors built tools, and primitive ones at that. There was a big jump in tool making ability from Australopithecines to Homo Habilis, hence "handy man". And finally, there is a big jump in tool making from H. Neanderthalis to H. Sapiens, like fine, delicate arrow heads and barbed fish hooks.

Sapience includes complex tools, musical instruments, ritual burials, paintings.

Yes, and here is your problem. Sapience involves many other things, that you didn't cover. Some, like recursive thinking may be unique to us. Others, like simple language skills and simple musical skills are shared by us. You are cherry picking examples that are unique to us in order to prop up a weak argument.

Let's pick music. Now, I am an amateur musician, but I have invented as many musical instruments as the typical chimp. Zero. Before we invented the first musical instruments, we spent thousands of years simply singing and humming, perhaps even tapping our hands together or on our bodies. These activities all have been observed with chimps and gorillas.

Of course no chimp or gorilla has written a symphony. But then I doubt you or I have either. So at what point of the musical ability spectrum does sapience start? As soon as we can exclude chimps? Does that you make you feel better?

Accurate quoting of my extreme statements. I stand by them, extreme though they are.

I'm not sure that is something to be proud of, is it?

Gunfreak Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2016 11:27 a.m. PST

Elephants in the wild have death/burial rituals. Tame elephants make music and paint.

gladue13 Jun 2016 12:49 p.m. PST

From the wiki article on burial:

By other animals[edit]
Humans are not always the only species to bury their dead. Chimpanzees and elephants are known to throw leaves and branches over fallen members of their family groups. In a particularly odd case, an elephant which trampled a human mother and child buried its victims under a pile of leaves before disappearing into the bushes.[20] In 2013, a viral video caught a dog burying a dead puppy by pushing sand with its own nose.[21] It is presumed, however, that since dogs retain the instinct to bury food, this is what is being depicted in the video.[22]

Personal logo Bowman Supporting Member of TMP13 Jun 2016 2:02 p.m. PST

Death ritual in the animal kingdom:

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Sapience includes ………….ritual burials……….. Nothing of the sort attaches to any other species. No intermediate progress toward that is evident in any other species.

Kind of like "frogs (or toads) aren't dying, they're just migrating" isn't it?

So no ornate funereal speeches, but I think that qualifies as "intermediate progress".

bbriarcliffe Inactive Member14 Jun 2016 10:42 a.m. PST

GWA: "I have/am a soul, I am immortal."

Nothing anyone says can ever dispute that.


…and, thus… link


no apologies…just sadness

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