"So, I finally saw Marathon Man..." Topic

And all I can say is What The Heck???

Yes, it's a tense movie, and Hoffman, Olivier, Devane and Schreider are terrific, and the dental scenes are brutal… but the plot makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The following "Oh Please" moments contain SPOILERS, for those who haven't lived through or delved into the world of '70s thrillers…

Oh, Please #1:
The great master spy Scylla (really? Who names their kid Scylla?) can't detect a simple tail, in Paris.

#2: An assassin with a bomb can't kill somebody in a car six feet away.

#3: A master spy doesn't noticed the suspiciously parked, abandoned and TICKING baby carriage near his taxi, that he left on the spot before proceeding to his rendezvous with a contact who appears to have thought he'd already be dead…

#4: Master spy plans to meet same contact, who seems to have preferred he'd be dead, after the bomb attack. Oh, and his handler waves the attack off as just random violence in Paris. "Happens every day…" My spy would have said, "Not around me, it doesn't." But this one just ho-hums.

#5. He then meets with his contact, who is now also dead, and then leaves the place of the murder by the same route he enters, then proceeds to another contact meeting, hears his next contact probably being killed in the dark, and hangs around to watch a soccer ball bounce his way. (Why a soccer ball? What's it doing at the Paris Opera House? Who brought it? The killer? Why? Is he wanting a pick up match with his victim?)

#6: After witnessing this, he again shrugs it off AND GOES BACK TO HIS SAME HOTEL, knowing his identity and movements are known to his would-be killers…

#7: And there he gets a good nights sleep, never bothering to close the closet door a mysterious bellboy left open the day before, from which the assassin conveniently emerges, having apparently snuck in the day before, snuck out for the previously mentioned killings, and then snuck back in. And, of course, our master spy is conveniently relaxed and standing on the balcony in broad daylight in his skivvies, despite that he's been either attacked or been near two violent deaths of colleagues in the past twelve hours or less.

#8: Later in the film, his handler describes their agency as being "The Division" (geez, Goldman, that's the best you could do?), the super-secret agency that does the deeds "the FBI and the CIA won't touch." Apparently, those deeds include being remarkably stupid when it comes to basic spy craft and self-preservation.

#9: Dweeb runner in NYC happens to be the son of a historian who committed suicide in the McCarthy era… and the brother of master spy, Scylla. At least his name is simply Tom. It's seemingly important that the dad was the target of McCarthy, but we never find out why. Never. Not once.

#10: Dweeb happens to sit at the same library table as hot German chick and does a creepy stalker thing to introduce himself. Hot German chick just happens to be another spy in the same courier network as master spy brother, but master spy brother doesn't know this, and Hot German chick doesn't know the connection, either.

#11: Guys with suits "mug" Hot German chick and Dweeb in Central Park. Dweeb doesn't think this strange for mugger attire. Hot German spy chick doesn't seem to connect any dots either.

#12: All of this is based around a Nazi concentration camp dentist who collected payment to sneak victims out of the camp, which he seems not to have done. He's hiding in Uruguay, and somehow has enough solid information to provide The Division with crucial national security secrets over a span of thirty years, despite just being a dentist at a concentration camp. Not nuclear or rocket scientist. Not spy against Stalin. Not military genius. A dentist. That's it. Tell me, what the heck is this guy gonna know that's of any use to anybody? The number of chipped teeth at Auschwitz? It makes no sense.

#13. Division handler is a double agent with the dentist. They think the dentist is gonna be robbed by Dweeb… and… and… well, they killed Scylla, so not him… so who is Dweeb supposed to be teamed with to rob the evil dentist? Especially since later it is quite apparent that both Division handler and the dentist know that Dweeb is a milquetoast grad student.

#14. Dentist knows who Dweeb's father is and the details of Dweeb's father's story, despite having been in Uruguay for the past thirty-someodd years and despite the father apparently having no connection to anything going on at anytime anywhere.

#15 In the obligatory Big Shootout, Dweeb shoots dentist henchman #1 (one of the muggers), handler shoots dentist henchman #2 (another mugger), then shoots Hot German chick— who isn't armed— and then turns on Dweeb, who shoots him. Why does handler snoot the henchmen? No clue. Why does he shoot Hot German chick? No clue. Maybe he just wanted Dweeb to be free to date other people. Handlers are nice like that, I guess.

#16: Dweeb, who is broke and now has Serious Dental Issues, confronts dentist, who now carries a briefcase full of loose, large carat diamonds worth millions. Dweeb goes all noble and prefers bullying dentist to swallow the diamonds, which apparently is bad, though we're not sure why (seems to me you'd just get them back, if a bit uncomfortably, about 18 hours later. But maybe they'll damage the intestines?). Okay, so Dweeb just wants revenge and is too noble to take the money… but apparently he's also not so noble as to see that the money goes to aid, oh, I dunno, let's see, maybe the Holocaust survivors from whom it was stolen?!? Or just a nice Jewish charity? How about keeping one big diamond to pay for some good dental repair? Hello? Rational thought calling… Hello?

#17: Dweeb leaves final confrontation scene and hurls gun into reservoir in Central Park, in the middle of the day. Nobody notices or cares. Okay, maybe that scene is realistic…

So, while, yes, I enjoyed the show and it was quite nicely tense, as a story it's a ridiculous muddle.

And that's your "Where were you forty years ago?" review for this month. (And I was waiting in line for Star Wars, that's where I was.)

So, you're saying I should rent this ASAP?

Is it safe?

…(really? Who names their kid Scylla?)….

Welcome to the 21st Century!

I've seen it only once, and that was several years ago. I don't remember many of the specifics, except, of course, for the brutal dental scene with Hoffman and Olivier; brilliantly executed! Also, it was released two years before another memorable film about hunting Nazi war criminals, 'The Boys from Brazil'.

yes
it's safe
it's very safe

spoiler
YouTube link

Then you'll just LOVE "Three Days of the Condor".

Oh, don't get me started on that one…

G Dog beat me to it

I wince every time I see Hoffman toss that .45 into the water.

Most of the complaints are based on a lack of information, which actually adds to the mystique of the plot rather than opening holes in it. Much about the characters is not stated, but inferred by their connections to each other. Obviously, Sell was much, much, much more than "the dentist". So also was Hitler much, much, much more than a failed artist. Just because we don't know squat about Sell's intimacies with spying doesn't mean that he wasn't very up on the affairs of certain "Division" business, his knowledge proves that much. As for the correct spy protocol, meh, this is like finding fault with buttons and epaulettes, 99% of the movie audience hasn't a clue about either….

Thanks for the review. I feel like I've seen the movie, so I won't waste 2 hours of my life watching it now.

If you didn't like Marathon Man then you'll really hate The Ipcress File or The Conversation. One of the whole points of 'spy' films of that era is that you don't really know what is going on and there are lots of loose ends, unlike the ploddingly obvious plotlines of modern 'spy' filmslike the Bourne series.

Anyway, I still fantasise about outrunning baddies due to my marathon running ability, and slightly shudder at the screech of a dentists drill.

Some films don't stand the test of time very well though as audience expectations have changed, and I am sure the days of the audience shrieking in terror and the usherettes (remember them) going round in pairs during the cinematic screening of John Carpenters 'The Thing' are a thing of the past.

I'd very very surprised if anyone was in the line for Star Wars 40 years ago though as it didn't come out until 1977. The big film for me of 1974 was the unsurpassed 'Blazing Saddles' (I was a bit young for Godfather II).

Oh, I quite appreciated the film as an exercise in suspense. It's certainly worth seeing for that and the acting. Just don't expect it to make any sense.

But I still don't buy the argument that Szell had anything of value to offer the West. He's clearly meant to be a stand in for Mengele, and that's all. To suggest he knew anything useful is absurd; why the heck would someone stationed at a concentration camp have access to significant military secrets? It was grunt work for the pathetic, not the placement of the competent. So I never bought it, despite the intentional obfuscation. I don't think the film makers had any concept of what anyone involved knew or didn't know, or even really what their motivations were, aside from paranoia and sadism. This film is all style and mood, but there's no real substance underneath it all. That's fine, but that's what it is.

Expectations are different today. Plot holes and inconsistencies that flow against logic are not tolerated as much as they used to be. Moviegoers today are much more jaded.

I tried watching that movie way back in the day I think I got about 20mins in to it and turned it off. I just board me to tears.

In 1977 I saw Star Wars the first day in NYC. I went to the 11 AM show and sat with maybe 100 other people in a 1500 seat theater. When we left, the sidewalk was jammed with the line for the first afternoon show. I felt like I got over.

Speaking of films that don't stand the test of time, I saw Easy Rider the first time about 10 years ago and was astounded by Peter Fonda's wooden acting, the lousy script and even the soundtrack. I knew this film was the first one to have actual rock music in it (previously royalty disputes kept it out of most films). What I didn't realize was along with Hendrix and such were other groups that I'd forgotten – for good reason. I stopped watching about 20 minutes in.

Whereas Dr. Strangelove still cracks me up. I can recite the dialog along with the film.

Three Days of the Condor is one of my favorites, well just the last 15 min

Not been to the dentist since!

Der Weiss Engel! It still gives me goosebumps.

YouTube link

Rapier has it right. The "spy" movie used to be a slice-of-life type story. They weren't beginning-middle-end stories. They told a story that was understood to be within a much larger context. The contemptory audience was well aware of the conspiricies surrounding WWII and the Cold War; that part of the story just didn't need to be explained.

Marathon Man, The Ipcress File, Funeral in Berlin or The Spy Who Came in from the Cold don't have the same impact on today's audience than they did then. It's a different time. It's a different generation.

The "spy" movie used to be a slice-of-life type story. They weren't beginning-middle-end stories.

Yes, but they could still be made intelligently. Even if you didn't know the entire story, you could believe there was a plausible underlying reason for what was going on. The Spy Who Came In From the Cold is an excellent example— we may not understand all the reasons for the cross and double cross behavior in the film, but we believe it. We see that there are underlying motivations that, even if never revealed, make sense in the context.
Marathon Man, while as I said, a very suspenseful and well-acted film, doesn't manage to pull off the plausibility in the long run, and its spies behave in very stupid ways (for spies). You can shut off the brain and enjoy the film, and glean the idea of people so steeped in conspiracy that they can't see the difference between bad luck and actual subterfuge, but if you start giving anything that happens a bit of thought the underlying premise collapses, Cold War or no Cold War (and I was alive during the Cold War and even old enough to vote while Cold War concerns were still high among the ballot issues, as in the Reagan v. Mondale election). The set pieces are great, but the scaffolding is flimsy and you can start to see the (metaphorical) painted facades behind it all. I thought Scylla's behavior was absurd for a spy in a deadly business almost from the start; he just wasn't believable as a spy. A patsy or a dupe, yes. A trained spy, no. Same for the handler— he was clearly untrustworthy from the start. Even Elsa's presence and behavior didn't make any sense, though perhaps a bit more forgivable from the "she's actually in love" line of thought… until she betrays the Dweeb at the end, at which point that whole thing goes out the window, too.

I'm not saying that mystery is bad; it can be quite good to let the viewer ponder over what happened and why— Chinatown comes to mind— but that pondering had best not be able to undermine the structure of the film. With Marathon Man any pondering does just that.

Well, you've definitely said a lot more than "What the heck???" :) I truly didn't realize what a stupid plot Marathon Man has until you pointed out all of its flaws. I wonder why you think China Town is better. What a pistol shot at the end! And what cop does that anyway? Shooting down a busy street at a fleeing car driven by a crazed woman who isn't threatening anybody?

"…And what cop does that anyway? Shooting down a busy street at a fleeing car driven by a crazed woman who isn't threatening anybody?"

forget it jake, its chinatown

As a writer myself, I try to be very conscious of plot problems. You can get away with them if the rest of your elements are top notch-- character, dialogue, pace, voice, prose/script, and in the case of film, acting, directing, etc.-- which Marathon Man hits in many places. But plot holes are plot holes. And I'm not the only one to think so; Roger Ebert echoes my same point that the plot doesn't stand much scrutiny: link
It remains a strong film, thanks to the acting and some nice camera work in parts, but it's just shy of being a classic due to the plot and some very dated and stilted moments.
For what it's trying to be (and there are homage moments) I recommend the Orson Welles classic The Third Man. Now there's a film that has both the elements of uncertainty you describe, plus suspense, mood and amazing visual work, with a plot that remains satisfying, no matter when you see it. Give it a watch; it's one of the best ever made.

Parzival, I had to say I actually laughed out loud reading your "Oh Please" list.

I saw the movie when it came out and thought it stunk. The only effective scene exploited people's fears of Dentists, rather than be a result of good writing.

I remember a movie critic (maybe Richard Corliss) suggest that the movie be given to Woody Allen, so he could wipe out the soundtrack, dub in his own, and make a sequel to "What's Up, Tiger Lily?" Maybe then, it may have been more watchable.

According to legend, on the day they were scheduled to film the "dental caregiver" scene Dustin Hoffman informed Sir Lawrence Olivier that he had gone without sleep for an extended period of time to help him portray his anguish and dismay, to which Mr. Olivier famously replied, "Why don't you just act?"

Of course, Hoffman's version of the exchange offers a different take.

….to which Mr. Olivier famously replied, "Why don't you just act?"

Thank Lee Strasberg's "method acting". To be fair some notable actors have come from that school. Of course, that would dumbfound a Shakespearean like Olivier.

I've heard that anecdotal exchange between Hoffman and Olivier before. And I wonder how many genuine actors there are? Most "actors" require experiencing the scene to a greater or lesser extent in order to pull their role off. Someone like Olivier, otoh, simply acts the part and spares himself the agony….

In case you don't watch Big Bang Theory – Nothing Indy does in Raiders of the Lost Ark matters…

Spy movies: Funeral in Berlin, best spry movie ever – everyone is a double-crossing bastard