"Navy SEALS had GI Jane all along" Topic

But she is really a he you can't beat DNA!

You seem unable to understand that that is only your opinion.

Gender is a biological term.

Colloquially, yes, but not to those who prefer precision in communication.

Most medical doctors, biologists, zoologists, social scientists, psychologists, neuroscientists, sexologists, physiologists, natural scientists, linguists, behaviorists, cultural scientists, the World Health Organization, and even many churches and religions, recognize that gender encompasses physical, mental, and behavioral characteristics, including biological sex, social roles, and gender identity.

Thanks for the , Bill. In fact, I went back and deleted that post of mine, since it makes no sense out-of-context.

He is making a lifestyle choice. He is not transcending gender. Gender is a biological term. He is a male choosing to live as a female.

Allow me to ask you when you decided to become a male heterosexual ?

I'm shocked to hear that there are still people who take offence in such matters that they feel so threatened by this that they would deny a person peace of mind or casually equate them to murderers or paedophiles.

I guess some people need to trample on some other people so they can feel good about themselves.

The TG person I knew was a fine and upstanding person, a devout Christian and dedicated to their family but stuck in a very difficult situation. I had to hear about a lot of pain, fear and sadness. It never was in my experience a barrel of laughs, she had to prove herself before doctors, psychiatrists and make those steps. It wasn't about exhibitionism or any "evil sexual deviancy" you care to imagine.

This world needs a little more empathy and compassion and a whole lot less pointing of fingers, bigotry and repressed sexual angst.

"As I said, "How does [the Cat man, or transgendered people] hurt me or the rest of society in any way, shape, or form?"

He doesn't, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about whether you can change your gender by some surgery. Trying to change the subject doesn't win the argument.

"It's possible he may have suffered from body dysmorphic disorder and became addicted to surgery, living from one procedure to another, piling up the changes. TG people have surgery to make right what they feel is wrong about them."

Please explain what the difference is between the two? You say one is sick for getting too much surgery, but the other is fine because it reflects how he feels about himself.

"Legally, children can't give consent. That makes it pedophilia and/or statury rape, depending on jurisdiction. End of story."

That is, thank God, the law….for now. Many psycologists are indeed making the argument that pedophiliacs are just 'different' and shouldn't get in trouble for their sexual prefrences. Some are even arguing that the kids enjoy it and it shouldn't be illegal. I had a friend in the 90s who worked in an anti-pornography unit with his police department. They kept coming across literature from NAMBLA, (North American Man-Boy Love Association), urging their members to support gay rights. They couldn't figure out why NAMBLA was doing this, (this was pre-internet) until they came across some internal memos from the leadership of NAMBLA. Turns out that NAMBLA was doing it because, in their own words, if they could get the American public to support gay rights, the next step would be to support pedophilia.

This is just an aside, I am in no way intimating that people who are transgendered, or homosexual support NAMBLA's goals.

Man or woman, but sometimes you just never know :)

This is just an aside, I am in no way intimating that people who are transgendered, or homosexual support NAMBLA's goals.

Just an aside to mention LGTB and NAMBLA in the same post so people can "draw their own conclusions"

Please explain what the difference is between the two? You say one is sick for getting too much surgery, but the other is fine because it reflects how he feels about himself.

People with BDD tend to be compulsive obsessive, in the case of cosmetic addiction they crave ever more change to get their buzz, they are never done and their body image is often severely warped because they are trying to achieve some unrealistic ideal. Anorexia is another example of BDD where no matter how much weight they lose, they always feels wrong and they need to lose that extra bit of weight (ad infinitum)

TG simply want to feel "normal" ie that their body matches their mental gender. Once they had surgery they are done with it (except for those who suffer from BDD etc)

And sometimes you couldn't tell…

link

Back at the Editor. How is it my opinion that you can't beat DNA? You can't beat DNA if he was in a fire and no one knew who it was because of burn damage you could tell from DNA that it was a male. How can you not beat DNA?

Trying to change the subject doesn't win the argument.

Says the man who brought up the Cat Man. Then anleiher brought up murder, more subject-changing.

I *think* the subject of the thread is a transwoman former SEAL and our attitudes toward her. My pointing out that my attitude is "no harm, no foul" is hardly "changing the subject."

Many psycologists are indeed making the argument that pedophiliacs are just 'different' and shouldn't get in trouble for their sexual prefrences. Some are even arguing that the kids enjoy it and it shouldn't be illegal.

Many? Some? Indeed? Got a citation for any of that? Because everything I've read says the vast majority of medical professionals have no problem with the categorization of pedophilia as a psychiatric disorder, and they're not fighting to have that definition overturned. Pointing to a few fringers isn't going to convince me otherwise.

[If NAMBLA] could get the American public to support gay rights, the next step would be to support pedophilia.

Even if your cop friend from 20 years ago wasn't just talking to hear himself talk, it doesn't really matter what NAMBLA thinks, that will never happen. Pedophilia harms children, and it's a crime. Again, who's changing the subject?

It's just the slippery slope argument….

"Says the man who brought up the Cat Man."

the cat man did lots of surgery to make himself look like a cat…it doesn't make him a cat. people such as the one in the original post get lots of surgery to make them look like a woman…it doesn't make them a woman. The cat man is very relevant because your argument is that such surgery actually changes their gender. Their gender is no more changed than is the cat man's species.

"Many? Some? Indeed? Got a citation for any of that?"

I do. I'll have to look it up at work tonight. It's an article from the UK.

"Even if your cop friend from 20 years ago wasn't just talking to hear himself talk, it doesn't really matter what NAMBLA thinks, that will never happen. Pedophilia harms children, and it's a crime. Again, who's changing the subject?"

Insulting someone doesn't support your argument. And I'll posit this: Twenty years ago gay marriage was unthinkable, now it's the law in some states. Forty years ago homosexuality was still considered a mental disorder and was only taken from the psyc texts due to political preassure. The people at NAMBLA knew exactly what they were talking about. Change attitudes and you can change laws.

We're all entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If it makes a person happy, then what's the big deal? How does this negatively impact anyone else?

The terms 'he' and 'she' are gender pronouns in the English language, not sex pronouns. 'It' and 'they' are gender neutral pronouns, not sex neutral.

As has been written, gender is not the same thing a sex. Whilst, the latter is strictly based on the genetics, contrary to some opinion here, it has been established both in law and science that gender is behavioural. Indeed, as it's a normative concept, it is possible for an individual to have multiple genders. This is particularly common in regard to the law and transgender citizens.

In short, semantically, a genetic 'man' can be a linguistic 'she' because it is a normative classification.

Well said.

Old joke of mine was that I was a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Then I found out that there are men out there who had parts removed to become women, but are still sexual attracted to women. Huh?

Big lawsuit took place over this at Lezfest in Australia. Really. The lesbian organizers stated that only "naturally" born lesbians would be allowed to attend.

That's when a group of former men, who were now women and were and still are attacted to women sued. It was very funny listening to the arguements on news reports. I never knew this sub-group of the GLBT community exsisted.

All I could think of was that these former men / now female lesbians are the living part of a punch line to one of my jokes.

The other rule for Lezfest that year was no lesbians under the age of 12 were allowed to attend. Under the age of 12? Wouldn't have tought of it.

Funny how with so many TMPers science trumps any belief system period – science is correct, opinion be damned – Oh, except for one's opinion of their identity, THAT earns a complete, "cognitive dissonance," pass.

What makes you think science isn't a belief system?

Then I found out that there are men out there who had parts removed to become women, but are still sexual attracted to women. Huh?

Men become women for different reasons. Though it does kind of change what it meant to be 'lesbian.' It's probably moot though because a person can be bisexual either as a male or female.

What makes you think science isn't a belief system?

Exactly. Before Galileo's heresy the earth is flat.

Funny how with so many TMPers science trumps any belief system period – science is correct, opinion be damned – Oh, except for one's opinion of their identity, THAT earns a complete, "cognitive dissonance," pass.

If science proves an opinion false, then, yes, "opinion be damned."

But you seem to think there's no science involved in gender identity, especially for trans people, that it's just "opinion," but that's incorrect. Read some of the links I've posted if you're really interested in the topic. This is a good one to start: link

Funny how with so many TMPers science trumps any belief system period…

Hell, that works for me.

well science can be proven, belief systems are just that,a belief with no tangible evidence. Bar a few madman back in time who found a good way to control people.

"How is it my opinion that you can't beat DNA"

Because DNA and physical gender don't always match just because you want them to. About 1 in 2000 people aren't the gender you or they think they are (this is why the olympics stopped genetic testing). (About 1 per 100 have a genetic variance they know about. About 1 per 500 have the brainstructure differences that lead to GID.)

Unless you've been tested, that 1 in 2000 might be you…

Her service is what matters. The guy next to her in a firefight hasn't complained.

In today's world with social identity confusion rampant and exacerbated by the media all I can say:

Whatever Works.