"Pilum and shield, how'd they do that then?" Topic

Every illustration I have seen shows a legionanaire carrying at least one pilum in his shield hand, but annoyingly the pictures never show the grip. Since the scutum used a horizontal grip, how on earth did they carry their pilums verticaly (as they would need to when in formation)?

I have a feeling that I'm going to need Allens help on this one.

If there are two straps across your arm and wrist, your hand would be free to hold the pilum. Once you have thrown the pilum your hand grabs the second strap.

If the hand grip for the shield was a leather strap, then you could hold the pilum and the strap together in one hand, couldn't you? It wouldn't be the most secure grip, but by the time you closed with the enemy, you wouldn't be holding the second pilum like that anyway.

How about with their thumbs, pinning the pilum against the shield, perhaps so that the base of the widened part of the pilum hooks onto the shield, too?

Errm, most reconstructions show a solid horizontal bar as the grip …

Yeah, in all the books the hand grip isn't vertical leather straps like a medieval shield, it's a horizontal bar behind the hollow of the shield boss.

Like so:
picture

So you can't carry it on your forearm with a fictional leather strap, leaving your hand free to hold the pilum. Your arm is extended downwards, and all your fingers are occupied holding the shield.

Sorry, that don't answer the question at all. But it might clarify things for folks thinking of leather straps for arm and wrist.

I'd go with Skeptic, hold the grip with four fingers (palm facing down, thumb sticking out to the right), hold the pilum against the shield using the thumb.

Or they may have carried two on the march and left one pilum with the baggage and sent a couple of guys back to get them when supplies ran low. I vaguely recall a reenactor describing how he managed to carry both though.

I wasn't there. Sorry.

They carried two pila and a scutum. Deal with it. Re-enactors don't seem to have an answer, since they all seem to muddle through with a single pilum in the sword hand.

Allen

Connoly mentions holding the horizontal grip of his replica scutum with the 4 fingers of the hand, and bracing the vertical pilum braced against the inside surface with the thumb. IIRC, he also mentions that it's rather difficult to do. I rather imagine this method encouraged you to get rid of the second pilum BEFORE you needed to use the shield defensively.

Another thing to consider is that, at least before scuta started getting smaller in later eras, they were true man-covering shields. It was entirely possible, from some things I've read, to fight from behind one with it's lower edge resting on the ground. I've done this in reenactments with a great big dipylon shield and it's surprisingly effective. Still have to pick the thing up to advance, though. :-)

Doug

Allen -- you weren't there?!?!?? I'm shocked, I say, shocked!

Fifty4 – he had a dentist appointment that day. :-)

Doug

These illustrations you mention are not necessarily anymore historically accurate than the reenactors of course, the artist just needed to display a legionanaire and his full issue of equipment.

If I remember correctly, JUNKELMANN'S LEGIONAIRRES say they hooked the wide part (where the pilum's wooden shaft joins with the metal piece) over the top rim of the shield so it held the weight. Then they just used their thumb against the shaft, holding it against the inside of the shield, to keep it in place.

Whatever method they used, their muscles and grip would have gotten used to it so a part time reenactor will have a hard time replicating it. For example, I work out and lift relatively well, but cannot hold a candle to movers when they are moving furniture or contracters hauling sheetrock or plywood. You develop specific muscles for tasks you do all the time.

"If I remember correctly, JUNKELMANN'S LEGIONAIRRES say they hooked the wide part (where the pilum's wooden shaft joins with the metal piece) over the top rim of the shield so it held the weight."

Convenient for that particular pilum weight design. Wouldn't have worked so well for the earlier "ball" weights, I wouldn't think.

I'm quite happy to accept "We don't really know" as an answer for this one, as it's unlikely we'll need to revive the practice in a life-or-death situation anytime soon.

I'm also quite prepared to believe that the twenty or so noncombatants in each century carried bundles of the darn things at the rear of the formation, and passed them up the ranks as required. Since we have references to legionaries being supplied with three or more pila on occasion, some were fairly logically carried by someone else…

Allen

Can you use 4 fingers around the horizontal bar and make a loop of your thumb to grip the two pila?

I think the honest answer is- we just dont know.
There are many ways we could come up with solutions for this though,….like a small cord/thong passed around the shaft of the pilum below the head and held against the grip with the pressure from the palm of the hand-simply drawn out with the other hand when needed.

Doesnt mean it's what happened though and I think it would just be held against the shield with the thumb..
I ask myself when and why would they be carrying pila like this? Cant see them doing long marches like it.
Perhaps its to advance towards the enemy with an extra one,stick the spare in the ground,chuck your first and pick up the second ready to throw again.

The pila and shield were only carried in the left hand in combat. On the march the shield was slung over the left shoulder, the soldierīs equipment was tied to a sort of knapsack-like device carried in the left hand over the shoulder and the pila were carried in the right hand (source: Warry)

Connolly has made at least one picture were legionairies landing in Britain carry the heavy pilum (the second to throw) hooked in the upper shield edge and fixed in place with their left thumbs (and perhaps a strap?). Since heavy pila usually had a weight attached to the lower shaft, most heavy pila would have enabled this.

At the risk of slightly hijacking the thread for a moment- is there any evidence that the pilum was actually thrown?
I say this because I've only ever seen it 'chucked' in a fairly unconvincing manner.
It appears to have all the aerodynamic characteristics of a cricket bat.

Hi

Steve, I have made both heavy and light ones. And I threw Jav in Highschool. They are short range and very devistating on the targets I built(mannikins in armor).

The drill as described is advance, light at 30paces, heavy at 20 paces, drop arm to sword, draw and follow the shield.

I had little trouble with it. I haven't talked to any re-inactors doing this, so I am not sure what their problem is.

I had little problem with the thumb hold at a run. So, again, I don't know, from the other side of the discussion. A couple decades ago talking with Phil Barker, we talked about this and one point of the discussion was he opined(as did a couple other people at the time) is that the grip also changed. Before Pyrrus, there is one pilum, after, they carry two, and several sources then suggested the grip was simply rotated vertical to make the hold easier.

Rocky

A pilum was heavy! You couldn't "carry" one with just a thumb for more than a couple of minutes.

How about this? That horizontal bar, with handgrip in the center, is a perfect ledge on which to hang the socket of a pilum. the thumb would merely hold it against the inside of the shield, while virtually all the weight would be carried by the ledge created by the grip bar. If the pilum was the square socketed type (by far the most common, iirc), it would naturally ride against the flat inside surface of the shield without shifting or getting away.

1066.us

I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of supplementary leather cord or strap that held it in place behind the shield until it was needed. Total conjecture of course. Holding a pilum in place with just a thumb sounds like a hellish torture to me.

Some 19th century African tribes ran around festooned with multiple spears, shield, and throwing blades. Although this equipment was certainly lighter overall, they used leather cords and such to hold them in place behind the shield until needed. Not the same I know, but possible.

Easy…magnetii.

Who's magnetii?

They are the nemeses of the Xmenii.

Thanks for the opinions fellas, lots to think about. I only asked because it came up as a point of discussion in the pub earlier this week. I think i'll go with the "no idea" answer for now.

Did they perhaps do as archers were sometimes said to have done and plant their pila in the ground? In battle they could initially carry both pila in the right hand, then, when they reached optimum throwing range (or if they needed the gladius quickly) they could pause and plant the pila. They could then throw one pilum and then pick up the remaining planted pilum again and move on – or else (if they are defending) throw both before drawing the gladius, or even just use the second as a thrusting spear. The whole procedure, plant, throw, pick up and move on or else plant, throw, throw (or not throw) and draw gladius, need only take a few seconds.

I once saw a re-enactor using this planting method throw four pila in less than thirty seconds. Range was about 50 to 60ft. It was quite impressive. And he was just a "part time" soldier. ;) The Legionaries proper could have only done it even better, surely.

Plausible?

The correct answer is, of course, "We don't know". With that out of the way I'll speculate along the lines of Mathias. Small leather straps and ties could be used, which, unfortunately, had no chance of surviving intact for study.

Ralph

Has no-one heard of clippus universaliticus?

I go with the 'We don't know how but the evidence all suggests they managed, so they must have done' school of thought.

I used to be founder membr of the 'STOP making slinger models carrying bucklers' club. I was willing to argue this to the nth degree, but never actually TRIED. Then one day I did, using a central-handgrip buckler. With a bit of practice i realised you CAN use a sling while carrying a buckler. And that seems a damn sight harder than carrying a pilum and shield in the same hand.

Pat

Scutatus. A couple of snags in your picture: first, it is the actual carrying of shield and pilum which is the problem, not how to throw the first one whilst managing the second. The sources show the second pilum behind the shield, obviously being carried by the same hand. Almost any of the above suggestions would work. The other snag is, when throwing javelin, the thrower must move forward into the cast. Romans usually did not just sit statically and wait for the enemy to come to them. Romans, even on the defensive, moved into the enemy. The double pila casting tactic worked because the legionaries were mobile.

They probably only carried one pilum in battle. Their other "pilum" was the palisade stake used on top of the marching camp wall.

I never had a problem with this. While marching, I carried each over my shoulder with a strap. When in combat, I stuck one in the ground while I threw the other one; then picked up the second.

No rocket science here.

Duh!

- Greg

Damn straight GrPitts – the sources suggest they did it, so they had a way. We just don't know what it was, that's our problem. You came up with a method, we can assume they did too. Were you wearing a marching pack? I would have thought there must have been a way to put the pila into the frame of the marching pack so it was secure, with or without a strap. Done it with poles on a back-pack myslf.

Pat

I've often wondered about descriptions of peltasts with one long spear, a fairly hefty shield and lots of little javelins. Even a thin, light jav takes up a lot of 'fist' and holding even 2 or 3 while managing a shield too seems nigh on impossible. I could well believe in wallahs at the back carrying bundles of them!

Hi

Greeks aren't my thing, but I thought the peltasta was a small light wicker shield. On FIGS, they get Hoplon sized, but I don't normally use Heroic figure sculpts as "history"….grin.

Rocky

Sane Max (How about a real name),

Glad we agree. People try & read too much into things. Carrying two pila is no problem. Another way is to have the gent to your rear hold the extra one while you throw.

Again, no rocket science, just plain old common sense, which according to a friend of mine that teaches political science at UTA, says is in short supply by the youngsters he teaches these days.

Makes me wonder how many of our "Academic Experts" have ever gone camping for a week or two.

Duh!

- Greg

His name is Pat.

One possibility is that just prior to entering into a melee situation the front ranks passed back their pilums to the rear ranks so that the front ranks could better hold their shields and prepare for the impact of the enemy while the rear ranks could wind up and really heave the pilum without concern about getting their shields and swords drawn…this makes tactical sense since it allowed for more "volleys" and increased the maximum firepower and effectiveness of the unit by spreading the burden of carrying the pilums over the whole unit and then concentrating the fire to those who could focus on that activity and would otherwise be useless until the front ranks got wearied or cut down…since the Romans were noted for their efficiency, this approach seems to be efficient and overcome many of the issues clearly raised in this thread…

I sling as a hobby.

a world-class expert in ancient weapons decided to try a sling for himself, walked out into a field with a sling.

Came back in and declared that the maximum range for a sling was 30-40 yards.

The current World record is just a hair under half a kilometre. I can do 200 yards when fit.

So when academics state things about ancient weapons I like to know if they have used them at all.

Pat

Well as for the pictures of the Pilum or any other weapon being carried or in use – artistic license has been around a long time. Artists of any kind are not photographers – never have been – they interpet what they see and try to show it (with varying degrees of physical accuracy.)

They did it. I don't have a clue how. I am sure new soldiers were taught the 'Roman Army way' to do everything. That has not changed (still 'right way, wrong way and the army way' to do things exist.)

If it's not recorded for later generations maybe they were not so worried about it – they just did it, taught it to the new recruits and didn't worry about it.

That said it is fun to speculate…

Gracias,

Glenn

Hi

Sane Max, in the pre modern world, turks commonly did very long range bow shooting as competiton, and similarly produced shots of a klick or so (how measuring system works is always a problem in this).

And such record distance are irrelevent!

The thing that matters is: how far a way can you hit someone with enough energy to KILL?

And, yes, I have done sling.

Rocky

The expert was twirling the sling round his head and letting go. he spent a day trying to make sure it went forward rather than any random distance in a 360 degree arc. he worked out 'I am getting a range of 15 yards. I bet experts can do better – let's say twice as good. QED the maximum RANGE of a sling is about 30-40 yards.

That there might be a technique to using a sling, easily available by asking someone from a culture where these things are still in constant use, never crossed his mind.

Pat