"Stephen Danes' 30 Years War Rules Now at Saber's Edge" Topic

Is this a total rewrite of the rules that were available on the web for free? The original rules used 1 base per unit and seemed to fit the smaller scales better. What are the base sizes for this version? Are they easily adaptable to 15mm? All my 15mm figs are on 30mm square bases will they work ok? So many quesions…….

So many quesions…….

I think it would be very helpful if rules writers and publishers would provide us with a quick synopsis of the system at the release announcement. Something along the lines of:

1-targeted figure size
2-recommended unit basing and figure scale/ratio
3-average game play time
4-targeted battle size and typical number of players
5-designers notes (talk about some of the choices you made and why)

Almost all of this was in fact covered in this release notice, great job Paul.

It would also be nice to know if there is anything significantly different from the freeware set (any changed mechanisms in the rules) beyond the new supplement.

Regardless I'll be buying this set.

Thanks again for a pretty good release notice.

Donald~

Got the new set.
On a quick glance should work for any figures. The rules are nominally for 28mm figures, foot on 20m square, horse on 25x50mm. Individual figures are then grouped on movement trays to form units. Units are aproximately 3 inches square.

Iirc this set is focused more on smaller engagements.

The rules include unit layouts for tercios etc. As most of the game is organized around units (although with single figure removal for casualties) I don't see why other basing or figure scales wouldn't work. I plan to use them with 40m figures.

The GREAT thing is that the rules include a bibliography on the period. I wish more game designers would do this. It is a great thing when moving into a new period. Yes, thee are Ospreys and poted histories in rulebooks, but suggested titles for furthe depth is a great thing to have.

Dave:
Thanks for the above sounds good – the problem is will they tempt me to buy the new plastics and move up in scale? This would be bad news for the wallet. I'll get a set – sounds like they are totally different from the originals.

I've just bought some 30 Years War figures from the Assault Group so downloaded these. Very nicely presented. Foot units are abot 25 figures cavalry 12. Command points are spent to get units to perform actions. Charges, shooting, movement, combat etc turn order. Counters are used (and included) to show unit status and to generate surprise events.

They look good for me and its nice to see rules which allow for individually based figures (albeit in movement rays) as I don't like element basing.

Are these rules suited to ECW?

Yes as to ECW. Be sure to check out the Father Tilley Yahoo group which has been around for years.

Dan

Does anyone know if the rules have been updated or are they the same as the rules published free online? The original free set had many interesting ideas but suffered from having been written using Guthrie's two flawed books as the main source. Hence the rules had 30 deep tercios, carcolign cuirassiers and similar things which gave a rather erronous view of TYW warfare.

The author's introduction says that he started from scratch with these rules rather than them being an update of the old ones…

Daniel.
The Classic Bastion Tercio is still in there, but other later formations referred to as Tercios are really just deep lines 4 or 3 figs deep. Swedish and Protestant foot are mainly 2 deep. The ability to caracole for certain types is still available. To be honest I think the mechanisms are such that all you need to do is give the troops types the right mix of characteristics from those avaliable if you disagree with the lists.
There are some great ideas such as:
Special rules for partial engagement – i.e.if the pikes of a unit dont engage with the enemy.
If a unit passes its charge test by the minimum needed the charge is half-hearted- pikes only fight 2 ranks instead of 4 and there is no charge bonus.

The rules prevent a unit being stuffed because a charge hits the muskets rather than the pikes. Musketeers automatically run for cover if charged by cavalry, and if no pikes are contacted the partial engagement rules apply.

I have to say at first I thought the mechanisms were going to be tedious to play. Having put some units out and given them a go they are best decribed as "different" rather than "difficult" and once you get the idea they flow quite quickly.

The "Battle Tokens" are a nice touch, although I'm sure the game could be played without them. Generals can hold a number of tokens according to their ability level and can play them to affect their own or enemy units. They also play a role in deployment.

Basing is for individual figures with four "kills" causing a figure to be lost. I can confirm that I think these will work for any type of basing. All my kit is on 3cm sq bases with 4 inf and 2 cav. The rules make cavalry "stands" a little larger than the infantry and disciplined cavalry can be 3 to a base. It looks like Swedish cavalry will fit into this category, but I don't plan rebasing (AGAIN!!) any time soon as I think the rules will work fine as is. I've been using the movement and ranges as is for 15mm and it seems to work fine.

Obviously just a personal opinion, but I think if you are into the TYW, these might just turn out to be the best set out there. I feel that with most rules for this period, you start with the ECW and try to tack on ammendments for the the TYW and this isn't the case here. I'm now quite keen to see additional supplements, especially for 1630's.

Oh, and they are quite different from the free set.

So – how many 15mm figures are you using for a 500-strong battalion of foot?

In the rules there are some sample formations and more suggestions for unit sizes in the supplement. Looking at the rules, here are the sizes given as example formations:

That " Early Tercio" thing: 56 Musket, 24 Pike.
"Tercio"(Actually a 4 fig deep line) 16 Pike,16 Shot.
"Later Tercio" (Actually a 3 fig deep line)12 Pike 18 Shot.
In the supplement suggestions are given for sizes of units and whether they are equal, pike heavy or shot heavy. It doesn't specify actual ratios though.
A linear "Regiment" example is also give of 8Pike and 16Shot 2 figs deep in the rules.

In my try-out I'm using Swedish Brigades of 3 Sqns of 8 shot and 4 Pike as is also shown in the rules. Battalion guns can be declared present but don't have to be represented. For Imperialist Foot I'm using 4 Deep 16 Pike 32 Shot (probably a bit too big?).

Yes I've hedged around what the actual figure scale is because I can't actually see one in the rules! It looks to be about 1:33. In the unit formations section it says: "The Army Lists will include all the information players will need, describing the different formations used as well as details of likely unit sizes, tactics and grade". An example line from Mansfeld's Army in the supplement reads:
Unit type: German Infantry. Formation: Regiment (i.e 2 fig deep line). Grade: Regular. Number of units Allowed:2. Unit Strength: from 12 to 40 figs .Weapon: p/S (i.e Shot Heavy). I'm sure we can all argue about formations, but as I've said in an earlier post, I think there are enough troop types and characteristics given that you can fashion the armies as you think they actually fought.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not declaring these to be the Holy Grail of TYW, I've only had them a day, but it's nice to see a set written specifically for this particular period – not a bolt on to general "Renaissance" or ECW rules.

Thanks for the excellent follow-up, Arthur! I have the free online set of Father Tilley, and this sounds like it is worth buying to get the new version. Great to have a set, as you say, designed for this period specifically.

After trying them out with 15mm I'd now move to cms instead of inches for that scale. You would need to calculate deployment distances in the opposite way to the rules for this to work though. i.e assuming the standard 4ft deep table, work out what the deployment distance would be from the centre rather than the edge and convert that to cms. It would take from 1618 to 1648 to get into contact otherwise :)