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"Shadowforge Discovers Recast Sales on eBay" Topic


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SeattleGamer Supporting Member of TMP29 Jul 2006 7:20 p.m. PST

Beyond the cease and desist order, I hope you two seek damages from this thief. It's stealing, plain and simple, as if he had reached into your wallets and pulled out the bills.

Getting a slap on the wrists (the "stop doing that" letter) is one thing, but I hope you seek legal channels. If this dude is forced to fork over gains and then some he is far less like to do this again.

Berengers Beard29 Jul 2006 7:22 p.m. PST

Thats scary…I hate the concept of recasting and I'm just a gamer, not a sculptor or owner of a company. Tis a shame but I guess it goes to show the hobby is also a business and you'll find pearls and swine…the pearls to outnumber the swine by a huge amount, thank God!

ming3129 Jul 2006 7:24 p.m. PST

Kick his ass !! make him pay you big dollars in lost income . Hurt him in the wallet.

nazrat29 Jul 2006 7:30 p.m. PST

It's really sad that you have to "wait and see what eBay does". They should jump on this sort of thing hard, else they be considered complicit in the crime.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian29 Jul 2006 7:35 p.m. PST

FYI, according to a 2001 post on RPGnet – link – someone by the same name was planning to launch his own line of figures, and was advertising a casting service.

Also, the company Wee Warriors back in '76 was reportedly the first to publish a roleplaying adventure – Palace of the Vampire Queen by Pete and Judy Kerestan. link

zgeist2729 Jul 2006 7:43 p.m. PST

I've bought miniatures from weewarriors in the past – and I seriously suspected some of them were recasts. The metal on many was very very soft. I usually try to crimp the tabs a bit to get them to stick in their bases while the glue dries, and with these, the tabs just came off… But, he stated in his auction that he bought them at conventions – so for all I knew he'd bought them from someone else who did the recasting. Especially since some of the figs seemed fine. It was about 30% that seemed off, so who knows?

Big Miller Bro29 Jul 2006 8:24 p.m. PST

Terrible- a bitter sweet sign of success is when your stuff is good enough for someone else to steal it.

I have to wonder about the feasibility of legal action however- who could honestly afford a lawyer for such things? :(

rmaker29 Jul 2006 8:30 p.m. PST

Bill wrote: "Also, the company Wee Warriors back in '76 was reportedly the first to publish a roleplaying adventure Palace of the Vampire Queen by Pete and Judy Kerestan."

I'm not sure that this is the same company. And, as is often the case, WiKipedia is wrong; in this case about this being the first non-TSR D&D module – Judges Guild had been in business for a year puiblishing D&D stuff before Vampire queen came out.

nudspinespittle Supporting Member of TMP29 Jul 2006 8:44 p.m. PST

In early 2005, I sold off my complete collection of Man O War models, all still in their packages, like new. Wee Warriors purchased three items from me: a box of Norse Longships, a box of Orc Wyvern Riders, and an Orc Hulk in box (I keep records). I was first put off by this individual because he was rude and didn't leave feedback (I always do when I receive payment). I checked his history and discovered that he was selling tons of Man O War models, all loose without the plastic masts, but not the models he'd just acquired off me. I figured right off he must be recasting and needed what I'd just sold him to add to his "catalogue". What a jerk!

Tom Bryant29 Jul 2006 8:46 p.m. PST

Getting a lawyer for such things shouldn't cost too much. All you'd really want is a "cease and desist" letter, signed and notarized by the lawyer going to both Weewarriors and Ebay.

Frog God of Team Frog Studios29 Jul 2006 8:52 p.m. PST

I saw this individual selling some of my figures, and there seemed to be more than one auction (according to one of my customers) of the same figures…when I contacted him about he, he made the same statement that the figures came from a convention and he wasn't recasting. I have not seen additional auctions for my figures since from him, so I concluded that he was on the up-and-up…

Jeferi29 Jul 2006 8:54 p.m. PST

I notice a few other small manufacturers in his 'bought from' list. I hope they see this also.

CnS painting29 Jul 2006 9:07 p.m. PST

Is there a forum to warn people about such fraudulant salesmen? I for one have seen several suspicious ebay auctions. I have even seen a brick and morter store that is selling "reproduction" minis that are poor recasts.<p> I would like to see some form of public list of who is selling knockoff stuff. Because people who make fake models usually make massive amounts of them to sell, their ebay rating usually very high. This means we need another system determine the quility of a seller's product. Mayhaps game companies won't need to charge $55 USD for 5 plastic figs(GW) to offset thier expenses because we the comunity will help them help us.

jimbeau29 Jul 2006 9:12 p.m. PST

<<< Is there a forum to warn people about such fraudulant salesmen? >>>

Yeah, theminiaturespage.com

jim

Karnophage29 Jul 2006 10:07 p.m. PST

I am pretty sure most of the miniatures he sells are recasts. I remember last year he was selling recasts of the Ral Partha Slave auction.

Pictors Studio29 Jul 2006 10:31 p.m. PST

Maybe everyone should buy stuff off of him and leave bad feedback. We could coordinate it here. Sure each of our ebay ratings will take a 1 negative hit, but his should be effectively put out of business.

vojvoda29 Jul 2006 10:40 p.m. PST

Hey I have been to Pahrump NV. It is not surprised they have the only bar from miles around NTS. Maybe it is all that radiation that makes the lead soft?
VR
James Mattes

Doc Perverticus30 Jul 2006 12:45 a.m. PST

Ponderous and slow grind the Gears of Justice.

The FBI will put 7 different kind of hurt on you, if you were to pirate Hollywood movies, but be a little fringe group like us, and Justice can only be measured by how much you can shell out for a lawyer.

But perhaps an alternative form of Justics can be engineered ( and by that I am not referring to the 'Soprano Solution' or the 'Corleone Contingency' ) Perhaps if a local gaming club organized a little bit, and PICKETED THIS BOZO"S HOME, and made sure that the LOCAL TELEVISION STATIONS KNEW ABOUT IT, then perhaps the local POLICE would get involved.

But hey….. what do I know….. I'm only a brush-monkey and a dice-flinger.

Khazarmac30 Jul 2006 1:17 a.m. PST

Neil, Paul, did you try using that Nevada Consumer Protection organisation I left a link for? If there are other manufacturers having the same experience, a joint or multiple complaint to the State authorities might have more weight.

Actually, I did a quick Google and the site looks different so maybe it was a different State. Anyway, here is a link for Nevada;

link

Might be worth a try.

Malc

Doc Perverticus30 Jul 2006 1:20 a.m. PST

I wish I had paid more attention to Pictors post before I put mine in- Thats a pretty clever idea. I'd be up for that! Lets target the Kansas City Kid while we're at it! I'd spend a few bucks to eliminate these parasites.

ttauri30 Jul 2006 2:03 a.m. PST

Any action like that would likely get all involved banned from ebay quicker than any action against the recaster. That kind of behaviour is very much against ebay rules.

The recaster can probably start another account and start again. One of the big problems of ebay-keeping the bad guys out.

Doc Perverticus30 Jul 2006 2:18 a.m. PST

eBay apparently doesn't pay attention to IP addresses connected to member accounts- THAT would be the best way to truly shut the door on someone.

'Any action like that would likely get all involved banned from ebay quicker than any action against the recaster. That kind of behaviour is very much against ebay rules.'

Sauce for the goose, says I! I have 2 ebay accounts, and I wouldn't mind sacrificing one

Personal logo mmitchell Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Jul 2006 3:41 a.m. PST

Pictors Studio is right. If we're sure a posting/auction is bogus, then let's buy it so we can start posting negative feedback on him. Also, someone could probably get some personal info on him by buying some of his minis. Then we go public and start a harassment campaign on him. He has a 1700+ feedback. That means it is something that can be hurt and damaged and begin restricting his future business. It's definitely a bona fide mode of attack we should use.

If he is guilty of this crime, we need to go "Punisher" on his *ss and finish him off.

Montgomery Robinson30 Jul 2006 3:59 a.m. PST

Has he removed the offending articles?

Even looking at the completed listings I don't recognise anything from Shadowforge. Are the nekkid girlies Amazon's?

neil at shadowforge30 Jul 2006 4:13 a.m. PST

Sorry for this being a lengthy reply.

I would like to thank the person from Austria who first issued us with an alert that something looked wrong on EBay. His concern and then making the effort to supply us with that information has been highly appreciated. Just that one message has opened up this can of worms.

I'd also like to thank the person who sent me the recasts. This was someone I contacted who had bought one of the sets from Weewarriors and he was generous enough to forward them to me.

Thanks too to everyone who has responded here, both for their advice and the sentiments expressed (Kharzamac I will follow up on that link – thanks). What has been said here only reinforces my own view that the vast majority of gamers are good people and that it is a rare few who are prepared to screw the system.

I'm sure I speak for Paul too when I say that we are not prepared to let this matter drop but will continue to use any and all avenues until we get the correct outcome.

I will try to let everyone know what reply I get from EBay.

Thanks again
Neil

Montgomery Robinson30 Jul 2006 4:13 a.m. PST

Plus I thought if you could establish your right to IP and could present this to eBay that would shut down the account.

Of course he could open another with a different email address and a different home address, different bank account or credit card, but there must come a point when he exhausts the possible.

parrot150030 Jul 2006 4:17 a.m. PST

He recasts GW stuff, too. I've bought (and returned) recast GW stuff from him. If anyone has the pockets and the cussedness to go after him, it'd be the Lads in the Red Polos. Tim Huckelberry, you reading this?

neil at shadowforge30 Jul 2006 4:18 a.m. PST

Montgomery

Since we contacted him there have been no more recasts of our miniatures offered for sale.

But then the last email I received from him said that he would only be selling packaged miniatures from here on. Today he has unpackaged miniatures on offer again……

(Change Name)30 Jul 2006 5:13 a.m. PST

This appears to be a chronic problem with Fraud-Bay. It occurs in a whole variety of areas.

For example, Fraud-Bay offers all sorts of advice about avoiding knock off of clothes. There are outfits that import cheap knock offs of name brand clothing and sell them for low prices on E-Bay. The quality usually is substandard, and certainly not to the level of the brand they are immitating.

Similarly, I have received videos which clearly illegal copies, which were ripped from originals.

I have also received a recast of a GW figure (shipped from Russia)

This is more than theft against the manufacturer. It is consumer fraud. If a woman thinks she has received a deal on a Gucci handbag, but gets a cheap knockoff instead, she has been cheated. When a gamer thinks he has purchased a Shadowforge figure, and gets a recast, he has been cheated.

It used to be that when one travelled to Hong Kong or Thailand, one could pick up a cheap "Rolex" or similarly counterfeited good. Now, thanks to Fraud-Bay, this scam can go worldwide.

There is no doubt about it, Fraud Bay is helping criminals everywhere rip off the public.

Lordofdane30 Jul 2006 5:20 a.m. PST

He's a powerseller, so don't expect too much action from Ebay.
Besides, what he's offering now are boxed sets, and a few girls ( of his own casts )?

Btw, I wonder how he got hold of the 10 Praetorians in the Foxholes auction he's been cutting in half…must have cost him at least 20 pounds *giggles* from GW.

auction

Also, 25 items on sale at the time isn't that much for a powerseller with a feedback of almost 1800…

I suspect a few item retractions…

GL Neil in catching the you-know-what and I really hope the law will make him pay.

(Change Name)30 Jul 2006 5:23 a.m. PST

By the way, I, personally (and as a lawyer myself) do not believe that a cease and desist letter is nearly strong enough. Even if he stops recasting your figures, he will just steal from someone else, and continue to defraud the public at large.

I would suggest that you hire a solicitor (or whatever you call them in Australia), and file a lawsuit against him and against E-Bay in Australia. One of the nice things about copyright law, is that not only are the damages hefty, but you usually can recover attorneys fees as well. (I do not know the specifics of Australian law, but I assume it is similar to American law). While this petty thief probably does not have a pot to Bleeped text in, E-Bay does.

I don't think E-Bay gets to skate on saying that they are ignorant that this type of thing is going on; just look at some of the warnings on their site. If they know that their site is being used for fraud, they probably have an affirmative duty to police their site. I don't think that WalMart could escape liability if they started importing Rolex knockoffs from Hong Kong then tried to claim, "we did not know that these Rolex watches we were purchasing for 50 cents each were illegal copies."

The odds are that the turkey in Nevada will not want to litigate in Australia, and will not have the money to do so. You get a default judgment against him in Australia, take the judgment to a U.S. court, and ask the U.S. court to recognize the validity of that judgement. You have a pretty good shot of winning that, and he probably will not want to spend the money to fight you.

But talk to a solicitor.

brambledemon30 Jul 2006 5:28 a.m. PST

figures came from a convention and he wasn't recasting. I have not seen additional auctions for my figures since from him, so I concluded that he was on the up-and-up…"

This seems to be a standard line from most recasters on Ebay. It is pretty obvious who the recasters are. All you have to do is look in their old feedback. They will have tons of the same miniature-same poses-same picture-no packaging. Over and over and over the same 10 figures. Everyone vouched for him here, but I found it a tad odd that he had 100's of auctions repeating the same GW figures and the same foundry figures…over and over. He must have a basement full of rare GW miniatures. But when I posted here-people kept saying he was legit. But man, where is he getting the same sets of rare GW figures? (special edition figures-limted edition figures-oop figures-all metal-no plastics) As I recall, there were a number of people who said we should mind our own business..how silly it was to make a claim like that w/out proof in your hands. But-I really think it is pretty obvious… the same figures…repeated over irregular intervals so as to avoid prying eyes-rare oop minis-no plastics-no packaging..etc. I didn't make a big deal about it, because I was told Foundry and GW don't care unless you have a bigtime recaster.

I actually turned weewarriors in to another manufacturer a long time ago. I did it because the guy was a very small manfacturer-and I knew one recaster could crush him. I got the same line-weewarriors was legit. So I never went to Amazon-even though I just couldn't understand how he was getting the same sets of figures over and over again. I now wonder if the manufacturer was working or was weewarriors. The profit margins are already so small in this industry-one recaster could seriously damage a company like Wyrd or Man. Egos.

Alxbates30 Jul 2006 6:03 a.m. PST

Geez… I've got this guy added to my favorite sellers list… I had no idea the stuff was suspect.

I'll take him off my list! Paul at Amazon has only ever been good to me, and has been a big help getting the Inferno miniatures re-released.

I hope they nail this jerk.

RudyNelson30 Jul 2006 6:14 a.m. PST

Good luck in your pursuits. Such activity can be tolerated by gamers or ebay sellers of miniature products. Some gamers in the area should call the guy and pressure him to stop.

CBPIII30 Jul 2006 6:17 a.m. PST

Those female mini auctions look to be Bronze Age Metals figs. I wonder if they're the real thing or what? It's obviously a set of the blanks and the Harem girl set.

link

auction

Fishy or coincidence?

Frog God of Team Frog Studios30 Jul 2006 6:28 a.m. PST

Is Bronze Age on this forum? Have they ever sold this guy any sets?

I remember a story about a recaster that had sold more of one particular set/type of figure in the last 12 months than the real manufacturer had ever sold…why do I think this set is like that (as I have seen it in "weewarriors" auctions before…

battlepack200130 Jul 2006 7:19 a.m. PST

Hey Paul, You think we should bring this as a warning to the GPA or WHEEZLE or GAMA lists?

andy

charonproductions.com

Jeferi30 Jul 2006 7:21 a.m. PST

A tool to spot the recasters is to set an alert for anything with the words "primed white" or variations in the body of the sale. There are several well known recasters who have switched names that feel they must disclose the primer in the sale.

Ravens Forge Miniatures30 Jul 2006 7:33 a.m. PST

I know that KCKid had some auctions pulled. They were for older Herotage minis – both Galacta and LOTR. Michale Thomas of Classic Miniatures owns those now, and he contacted Ebay about it.
KC Kid sent him sime rude messages, but in the end, Ebay woekd with Michael to stop the bogus auctions. Several people are watching KCKid at the moment, and several more have been stopped.
Good Luck Neil! I hope you get the b@st@rd, as he is only hurting this industry.

Andrew May130 Jul 2006 7:42 a.m. PST

What a toss pot! Maybe someone knows someone else who can arrange for him to have an unfortunate casting accident, and I don't mean the George Lazenby as James Bond type of accident either… evil grin

Amazon Miniatures30 Jul 2006 7:51 a.m. PST

Thanks for all the support. It is good that Neil and I got together on this one and shared info.

I can add the comment that whether or not this person is recasting is not at all in doubt. By his own words he admits it, it is just a matter of legal definition and argument.

It does make a difference not to be standing by yourself (as Rameses apparently commented after one particular battle). I have also spoken with GW in UK directly on this one. We would be pleased to share info with other manufacturers.

Paul
amazonminiatures.com
paul.ashton@amazonminiatures.com

Ulfr Ericsson30 Jul 2006 8:30 a.m. PST

Pete Keristan has bought 50 sets of our Dead planet Harum girls and has had me do some generics for him so I beleve he is just selling the sets that I sold him and the generics are some of his own.

Thanks for all of you looking out for us miniature makers.

David soderquist
Bronze Age Miniatures

aecurtis Fezian30 Jul 2006 10:13 a.m. PST

Where are the comments from all the recasting proponents? evil grin

Too bad this guy is in Pahrump. The local law enforcement will be of no help whatsoever.

Allen

Phillip Forge30 Jul 2006 11:42 a.m. PST

I once saw some recast GW minis at a wargames show. They were Blood Bowl minis. I bought some of them and sent them to GW with a letter explaining the pruchase.

A few months later I received a letter from GW thanking me for the information and a £20.00 GBP voucher.

fortressfigures Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Jul 2006 12:08 p.m. PST

I too found him selling recasts of my figures.

I wrote to him and informed him that "Selling bootleg copies of figures is a violation of eBay policy whether or not you did the actual bootlegging. I would appreciate you removing these auctions and save me the trouble of going through official channels."

To his credit he immediatly complied with my request and I have not seen any more of my figures at least for sale by him.

martin goddard Sponsoring Member of TMP30 Jul 2006 2:51 p.m. PST

Some people are poo!

Malebolgia30 Jul 2006 3:18 p.m. PST

I know this guys…I bought Void stuff from him twice (so maybe Scotia Grendel might be interested)…and twice from a different account. And both times I didn't receive everything. The first time I didn't put the pressure on since I was missing only 2 figs (2 pounds or so) but the second time it concerned 12 pounds. And after a lot of e-mails with Wee Warrior Games (weewarrior.com) I FINALLY received my money back.

But I always suspected him to do recasting. All the times I bid on Void miniatures he prematurely ended the auctions. A day or 2 after the auctions he put new items on ebay…which were exactly the same as the ones I bought! In addition, the metal is a bit weird and has lost some detail.

Other ebay account I know he had:
Migmateii

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2006 5:52 p.m. PST

Too bad he is not re-casting from Phoenix, Arizona. Sheriff Joe Arpaio knows how to deal with the criminal element!

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian30 Jul 2006 6:39 p.m. PST

And after a lot of e-mails with Wee Warrior Games…

Holy moly, he's a retailer??? And look who he stocks:

Hasslefree
Corvus Belli (including WarCrow and Infinity)
Copplestone Castings
Renegade
Artizan Designs
DragonRune
The Assault Group

Rogzombie Fezian30 Jul 2006 7:18 p.m. PST

I know everyone is looking for a deal on stuff but wouldnt it be better for the industry if people bought directly from the companies or their certified dealers? That said the cheap skates who dont care about bootleggers probably arent here anyway.

Ebay has become a cesspool, more concerned with major profits than the small seller. I've seen some really seedy stuff on ebay lately in various sections. Ebay doesnt even know what it is selling in some cases. If you put some effort into it you could probably find all sorts of illegal stuff being sold on ebay including things clearly defined by their rules. You really need to watch what you are buying.

I believe every company mentioned in this post sells direct, give THEM all the money not some middle man.

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