"Open Letter from Tony Reidy of Wargames Factory" Topic

Hate to contribute to the off-topic controversy, but please, think twice before posting in this smelly rant on racism and so. Linking the problems of WF with a country or even a regime is at best silly (btw, for those not reading serious newspapers since 1975, China is not a totalitarian country any longer, but a one-party dictatorship, which is not better but also not worse than the greater part of developing countries, and at least it is improving over the years).

Please downsize the trauma: wishing luck both to Tony and to the new owners of WF. May them both, in their own way, contribute to the development of the hobby. There is room for both.

Will this topic beat all the GW and Perry topics next year???? Go Tony. Down with Mao!!!

I hate that this happened.

I have been dealing with Tony form the very foundation of the company as a customer. He has always been gracious, professional and understanding.

I hope this can get all sorted out and he can go back to doing what he likes, which is supplying some of us with nice figures at a decent price.

I wish him and his crew the very best. I do not know what is happening at WF, but I do know that I will not be ordering any more figures until I can be reasonably assured of receiving them, as I would with any company having issues.

"Observations regarding laws in the UK have as much relevance as ones regarding laws in Bongolesia— that is, none at all…"

Hey! Leave Bongolesia outta this!!!!

Their official stance, (from what I have been able to gather) is that "they are not involved in any way, shape, or form with any business dealings between themselves, WF, and/or the Chinese….

They ARE however involved in some international deals (brokered by Honest Abdul, "The Shoppers Friend!") for some international trades on "farm equipment"….

But on a serious note…holy crap.,..this post is just….one massive train wreck….

If this is any indication of what the rest of the year holds in store for us, then 2011 should be a doozy!

I'm with you, Murphy. I hope they get it all sorted out, but this thread will be alive forever to remind us of how far off the beaten path even TMP news articles can get ;-).
Don.

The developing situation with Ex Illis will probably add a lot more fuel.

"I think I have had enough of this for a life time – Good grief!"

Aw, come on now! Don't be such a baby!

Leland R. Erickson

"But I don't want to go on the cart!"

For more info on Bastion: link

updated as of 10pm

How many users have not posted on this thread? Can we get a count of who is left to chime in?

From the bastion forums, it's full of doom and gloom.

link

I haven't posted

nor me

I have

That's interesting news about Ex Illis, and worth looking into further – anyone got more info?

Certainly not much of a surprise that ExIllis has tubed. There's innovation and then there's ill-conceived ideas. Two Hour Wargames is innovation; The Lardies is innovation; ExIllis was a badly conceived mish-mash trying to fold in some sort of CCG concept with computer rules. Firstly, Bastion should have studied the relatively poor takeup of computerised wargame rules in general. As a big advocate of them I am still surprised why we aren't all using our mini laptops as the rules engines but for whatever reason, like games without dice, wargamers just haven't taken a shine to them. I was at The Ancible when we got in a preview copy of ExIllis and it was painfully clear that it was a crash waiting to happen. For a start we found you could play the game on the computer without needing the models at all. Oh, it was trumpeted that this wasn't the case but patently it was. Then some of the figures themselves were pretty ropey and uninspiring. There was no innovation or originality there – fantasy medieval repackaged is all. But worst of all was the idea that you had to but units and register them online before you could add them to the game. What this felt like to me was a trap to draw you into a game with no resale value whatsoever (stuff registered to you was not transferrable) with some gimmicks from other genres thrown in for good measure.

I posted, but only because my Chinese overlords made me.

I am a fan of the Shock Troops, but only buy them from Maelstrom or War and Peace Games.

A real shame that it has turned out this way

I posted, but only because my Chinese overlords made me.

Good one lol.

This is the impression I am given from what I have heard so far … given the information I have seen ..

I notice that noone has tried to claim that WGF was in good shape when this happened.

Even the letter itself implies that that business was poor when the alleged backstab took place.

It is well within the rights of the owner to change management to try to save their investment. Are we now blaming china for being ruthless capitalists?

The old management team have made things worse for the consumer by posting this and allegedly witholding order details from the new team.

Sorry, they had a cool idea but the business simply failed from what I can see. The alleged backstab is just a distraction from their wider failure.

Sheesh, 8 pages, someone would think something really important had happened. Tony, Howard et al had what seemed a good idea – give people what they want with the 'wish list' idea. Not a bad idea per se, but perhaps not the best one to start with. They released an eclectic mix of figures from different periods/genres when perhaps to start with they should have focused on less range initially, build up sales, quality and then looked to branch out a bit. A few well chosen lines done properly should have generated enough to add to those lines / bring out further lines. EG – rather than do 1 sci-fi, a 'modern' (zombies) a few historical from different periods, then look to do some fantasy if they had done less but done it better they could have got a real foothold. Mantic seem to have done ok – 3 ranges/races (thus far) which people like or dislike the aesthetics of – but there is a whole range for each type they have released. I think this works better than if they had made 1 box of elves, then WW2 Finnish, then Ancient Egyptians, then Spanish Civil War armed female militia etc.

The nasty bit is how things turned out, because even if I was a critic of the quality of their ranges, they were nice guys and getting better, with some good ideas. Some bad decisions were made, problems encountered and what we see now. We need to know more to really be able ascertain whatexactly happened and if this Lon really is Judas re-incarnated. I think Tony and Howard&Co had an interesting vision and dream, which could have turned out differently and perhaps with lessons learnt may do one day.

The over-reaction on here though beggars belief.

China is not a totalitarian country any longer, but a one-party dictatorship

I fail to see the difference.

Back OT: I think aBHs has a point. A "complete range" approach is a sound idea. But then, WF did start with Brits and Zulus (for Colonial skirmish action), then Romans, Celts and Numidians, Then Vikings and Saxons (pretty much interchangeable), which for the purposes of the figures (cheap rank and file) was not only essentially complete but included opposition forces. Into this mix they added generic zombies and were branching out into more SF and Fantasy, while introducing a Lace Wars historical line. So not quite as piece-meal as is suggested, though the general thrust did hop around a bit. At the same time, they got *me* interested in buying 28mm figs, which before I had not been, all because of the price, which was terrific, while the quality was more than acceptable for what I wanted (gaming figs for light, fun gaming).

If WF does go down the tubes(not that I'm wishing them ill),and the Chinese company still has the molds-maybe,just maybe,we'll get "Dollar Tree" Romans.

Ah Parzival, thanks – I had thought of them being released in a different order – makes it more logical now. But had they concentrated instead of the hop about I think it might have helped.

China is not a totalitarian country any longer, but a one-party dictatorship
I fail to see the difference.

Huge difference. See Hannah Arrendt.

Totalitarism: the State or the Party wants to control everything, even your own thought. Whoever is deviant is eliminated (Nazi Germany, Stalin's USSR, Mao's China, Pol Pot's Kampuchea, Kim Il-Sung's North Korea).

One-Party dictatorship as today's China: it is a mere political authoritarism. The State and the Party doesn't care about your private life and ideas anymore. Speech is completely free within private circles. Only political dissent is prohibited (i.e creating a political party or a trade union, etc.). That means that usually, if you don't intermingle with the authorities, they won't intermingle with you. Not so confortable than living in a western democracy, but still better than living in most parts of the arabic and the african countries.

Sorry for the off-topic, but as a Westerner happily living and working in China (and pushing there for more reforms and democracy), I am fed up with all this bashing. COLD WAR IS OVER, the commies are dead already (some are still struggling in the Jurassic Park of North Korea though).

Renaud S I beg to differ: speech in China is not free even among private circles. People who disparage the national government are guilty of a crime under Chinese law. Its like smoking pot, if you do it at home among friends its unlikely you'll get in trouble. At least not until one of those "frinds" turns you in. Also, please so me where in the documents that the Chinese government have released where they have disavowed "assisting" the development of a world government under the leadership of the politariat. The Chinese people are some amazIng people with wonderful culture but I would not trust anything their government has any hand in.

Sorry a bit off topic. ;-)

Sorry for the off-topic, but as a Westerner happily living and working in China (and pushing there for more reforms and democracy), I am fed up with all this bashing. COLD WAR IS OVER, the commies are dead already (some are still struggling in the Jurassic Park of North Korea though).

Novelty of a NOT one-party dictatorship: A little bit more freedom of opinion. Gone native, have we?

*looks into teapot*

Yep, it's a tempest, alright.

And the award for best International Drama goes to ……..

Drum roll…………..

This is from Howard Whitehouse on the WF forums (the link to which was removed from the WF site).

Hey fellas:

I've been quiet since all this happened. A week ago (or a bit more) I was chasing down orders. Then it became clear that the problem was not 'missing' orders so much as 'we have these packed but someone (let's call him, say, 'George') has taken money out of the account so we have to scrape around to find more'.

Great. A raft of packages not going to those who've paid for them simply because we need a grand to ship 'em out.

So Tony begs or borrows some money. But then the bank account is frozen by, um, other parties.
And we are all, apparently, out of a job.

And all the packages sit at Triangle.

I'm sure that, job or not, Tony and John would deal with these if the Chinese partner would play nice. But so far, that hasn't happened.

For myself, I am embarrassed that our customers have been treated so badly.

link

Renaud S I beg to differ: speech in China is not free even among private circles.

Oh yes it is, and I listen to it everyday. Come to see yourself. Only public speech is controled (but they have tremendous difficulties to tame the internet voices and if you could read chinese, you could have a look at the big Tianya forum on the internet: although some issues are censored, you'll see Party bashing in nearly every thread). Still very annoying, but not to the extent you think. And no, I have not gone native (what a good flak from the cool guys boasting ignorance over experience) and I still think there is much room for improvement here.

Off-topic off, and I won't say no more on this. I know it is so much comfortable to live in a black and white world. Let's settle it on a wargame table next time ;-)

It seems Exillis/ Bastion also had a "relationship" with the same company and is now "sunny side up" with a lot of similarities as WF. Is this a coincidence?

You may have already seen this but the company does refrence both WF and Ex here:
link

Official announcement from Ex:
link

This may not be related and pure coincidence the similarties between the two, but if it is I would like to know.

Aw, come on now! Don't be such a baby!

Well if that means I am being a baby, then please pass me the bottle with the pink juice!

'if the figures had Perry quality they would have had a Perry price.'

In the UK Perry plastics are cheaper.

For as many times as this thread has been jacked, it should be renamed Newark.

That's an interesting post from Howard.

For some reason, a lot of people here at TMP have always been looking to stick it to Tony and WF. I've never understood it. From the postings years ago that said WF could NEVER produce the figures they said they were going to, to the recent ones here that place the blame for the company's problems all on Tony (even though it's been explained where the problems came from). It just doesn't make any sense to me.

When people like Tony or Howard say they are being screwed over by strangers, I see no reason to doubt them and assume they are lying to me. I wouldn't blindly follow along with them if there were evidence to the contrary but I've seen nothing that doesn't fit their version of the story.

I guess it comes down to this question – Which is more likely? Howard Whitehouse is lying to us or someone I've never heard of is being underhanded in their dealings to further themselves financially and take over complete control of WF from the people who started it?

Er i think its odd you are assuming this "stranger" is guilty.

I also find this idea of someone trying to take over WF a bit weird too. The chinese dude owned a controlling share before all this happened right?

Its a management take over and they are well within their rights to do this.

Its harsh but when you play with the big boys ….

Renaurd S I am glad to hear that things have changed so much in the last three years in China from when my last China dealings were although I reserve the right to remain highly sceptical. I accept your challenge to settle differences over the wargaming table; say Dark Age skirmish in 28mm? :-)

Back to the topic: I can't see old & new management at WF ever kissing and making up so I hope that new WF stays on the path of a socially aware company that produces a product we want backed up by good service. And that Tony & Co recover from this train wreck go on to bigger and better things.

For all directly invloved I know now it may not seem possible but consider this from the Optimist Creed: "Promise yourself…to forget the mistakes of the past and press on to the greater acheivements of the future"

Blucher – I find it even more odd that you would assume Howard is lying. I doubt there are many more respected than him in our hobby.

You are the best example of the type of people I mentioned. You ignore the story of people who have always shown themselves to be truthful and accept blindly the story of people we've never heard of. Actually, you aren't even accepting their story since they haven't made any real statements. You are just blindly assuming they have done the right thing even though all statements so far from anyone associated with the situation have been to the contrary.

Talk of who may or may not be lying is, at this stage, something of a red herring. What we are actually dealing with is perspectives. Certainly as far as Tony's opening blowout goes. As for Howard, frankly I'd want to know whether his source is himself (and even then can he be corroborated) or is it partly from a third party? I've been in positions myself where I have been under the clear impression one thing is going on when in fact I'm wrong because I've only got elements of the story – and we are talking when I was the studio manager of Mongoose, not the cleaner or owt. Things like that do not make either side wrong, but it can cause misinformation.

I guess as an ex-cop my starting point is I don't trust anybody. I don't mean with minor things, but any time they either say something which may be of significance to me, or to them. That does not make them liars. It just makes me a cynical old so-and-so, I reckon. For all I know Tony and Howard could bve 100% bang-on correct about every element of this, but anybody who instantly believes something just because they dealt with a guy a few times and he seemed like a 'good ole boy' needs to be a little less naive about human nature.

You have things very much the wrong way round old boy.

The letter this topic is based on is full of slander and unproven allegations.

You may choose to believe them based that on these individuals reputation if you wish. Others seem to have based on their view of Chinese business practices. Innocent til proven guilty is my view.

Loved the reference to my "type" though. Thanks for the giggle :)

I don't disagree with you Old Bear about human nature and definitely people see things through their own tinted shades but you surely are dismissive of Howard's reputation with your comments.

But that said, you had the obligation as a cop to not take sides as it wasn't your job. There are other parts of the legal process to handle that side of things. That isn't the case here. Accepting business as usual at WF without comment is the same as blindly accepting the takeover group's side of the story.

Anyone able to navigate Quebecois business filings to see if the "new investors" that are mentioned at Bastion are tied to Ghost Studio (already know that Ghost does the manufacturing of plastics for them). I am not familiar enough with how things are reported up there to track it down.

IF Ghost Studio is the new investor, it would be one heck of a coincidence to have their two primary customers in North America fall to their full control during such a short time period.

"Accepting business as usual at WF without comment is the same as blindly accepting the takeover group's side of the story."

Seconded and well said.

Leland R. Erickson

Until (if ever) we know all the facts, people are going to make their own opinions. Those who know Tony and Howard will vouch for them if they have proved themselves to be good types – which I am pretty sure they have, at least, seeing Howard's posts on here I'm pretty sure he is. We don't know anything about Lon other than what Tony has said in anger. There is no point arguing about reputations or anything until this becomes more than hear say or one sides viewpoint.
Being blindly loyal to Tony and Howard will in most cases on here come from dealing with them so holds, in those peoples eyes more weight. At the moment there is no point blindly accepting the side from the takeover 'team' nor blindly disregarding it. We have no concrete proof nor fact here folks.
All we know is something has happened and it looks like it was A/ Messy, B/ Tony, Howard et al didn't fair well out it (I will not say shafted as we don't know) and C/ a lot of people on TMP feel strongly loyal to Tony and Howard and are 'fighting their corner' over what they see as an injustice.
Eventually it will hopefully all come out in the wash so we know the truth. Either way, and I have not been a fan of WF, in fact I have criticised their stuff, I hope Tony and Howard do not suffer financially and in their private lives from this, and are not discouraged from trying again, with a bit more 'savvy'* this time.

* as in have learnt some painful lessons that will not be repeated.

IF Ghost Studio is the new investor, it would be one heck of a coincidence to have their two primary customers in North America fall to their full control during such a short time period.

That is a big "IF" but I agree, they have already announced that they also lost their jobs:

The staff working at Bastion, myself included, has been let go

Let me be clear that this is unfounded at the moment however I do wonder if there is some connection here.

Woohoo 400!
I'm sure if anything illegal went on, one side or the other will take it to court and it will be settled there rather than here.

but anybody who instantly believes something just because they dealt with a guy a few times and he seemed like a 'good ole boy' needs to be a little less naive about human nature.

I agree, do you know these people or do you "KNOW" these people.

Let me be clear, I am not taking sides, however I do feel damned bad for the WF staff "IF" this is what has happened (because I have been there before and it hurts) and I don't believe that – again – "just because you can means you should" and the whole "It business" is a load of crap to me as it is just an excuse to selfishly do what you want even if it hurts other people – just my humble opinion.

The truth of the matter is we will "Never" know all the facts behind this and one unmentioned point could vastly change the out come of what people feel – we have not heard from the other side yet and rather you want to admit or not that can change things a lot.

Someone out there knows the truth and I do believe that what a person sows they reap and if they sow the whirlwind they will surly reap it!

I'm sure if anything illegal went on, one side or the other will take it to court and it will be settled there rather than here.

There is a world of difference between being legal and being right.

Everything that has happened (at least as far as Ghost Studio is concerned) is probably oh-so-well-constructed legal, nice and tight down to the most microscopic jot and tittle.
That doesn't mean they didn't royally shaft somebody.

If you don't think somebody can be screwed all nice and legal like, you might ask creator J. Michael Straczynski what happened to his share of the profits from Babylon 5. link

this is the thread that doesn't end, it goes on and on my friend…

Four quatloos says the thread doesn't reach 500 posts.

I invite you all in on the wager and invoke the names of Mr. Hilter and Mr. Bimler to make the madness stop.