"Mongoose Courts Drake" Topic

Is dealing with Mongoose such a wise decision?

Anyways, if things go back, Darke can still kick their asses, take them to court about it, and write a ripping yarn.

Bad, not back…

Drake, not Darke?

I thought that Mongoose was getting out of the miniatures business. At least out of the business of producing miniatures. Doesn't Mongoose have enough licenses that they are ignoring already? Why take on another?

M`mm Mongoose and the words"competent experts" aren`t the most obvious combination for a sentence.

I shall monitor this, and then make my mind up!

AS

My first thought when I saw this was NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

The only thing the current rules need now is a compilation into a single book. They've got that on the list of things we've been asking for. I'd kindly like to ask that if anyone is going to tamper with the license…that they wait a bit and let things get sorted out rules wise.

Then if someone wants to run it into the ground, at least we'll have something to play.

Mongoose?
link

"The only thing the current rules need now is a compilation into a single book."

While I completely agree with cloudcaptain's cri de coeur, this sentence leaves me with the impression that he did not read and understand the news item.

A new Hammer's Slammer's board game will not be a huge seller or have a huge impact. If they were to get into the miniatures version of the game – they would most likely go down the exact same path as Starship Troopers – go like they can't sell enough, and then cut the entire line-up in short order.

My proper role is to pick competent experts and let them get on with their business.

Hello, Dave? We need to talk, Dave. Mongoose is many things. Competent isn't one of them, nor is expert.

Mongoose Games…best set of licenses in the history of the gaming industry, bar none. Shame about the actual products.

Old Crow is already doing a range of minis that have the blessing of David Drake, apparently.

I would like to see a new one though, done in 6mm, with really impressive looking Blower tanks, like those depicted on the covers of the novels.

They should dwarf their opponents, both in size, and capability.

"Hello, Dave? We need to talk, Dave. Mongoose is many things. Competent isn't one of them, nor is expert."

Go here to contact the man himself:
david-drake.com/faq.html

Mongoose looks for something that will give them a quick "cash" fix, then they drop it and move on. See their total lack of support for the Judge Dredd games (both Mini's and role-playing).

I hope that Drake wants lots of $$ so that Mongoose will actually have to support it long enough to make it back.

The Old Crow models are endorsed by Dave himself and are the best representations I've seen. I'd like to see 6mm too though, also by Old Crow.

Giving the license to Mongoose? Bad idea.

Hopefully they'll only release a boardgame so when they summarily dump the license down the proverbial toilet after making enormous promises about support we'll only be shy a boardgame and no one will be left with a half complete line of miniatures.

Upon reading this article I had to force myself from standing up in my cubicle and doing my best Darth Vader impersonation…

"NNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

This must be a new form of The Bug on TMP. Clearly this announcement was intented to be posted on April 1st but somehow must have been delayed all these months.

Sweet leaping Jebus. Not Mongoose for pity sake. Anyone but Mongoose.

"My proper role is to pick competent experts and let them get on with their business.
Hello, Dave? We need to talk, Dave. Mongoose is many things. Competent isn't one of them, nor is expert."

Thank you Hundvig. That hit the nail on the head. Semi-regular articles in Signs and Portents doesn't really constitute support for a game.

SST R.I.P
BF:Evo R.I.P
SST:Evo R.I.P
Babylon 5 R.I.P
Judge Dredd R.I.P

I hope this does "NOT" go through and Mr Drake "does not" allow his universe to be wasted.
Mongoose are "rubbish" and were for me a severe disappointment.Absolute waste of my money,so please Mr Drake find someone other company.

What will this mean for GZG's Hammer's Slammer troops in both 25mm and 15mm?

Is it Mongoose's plan to buy up a license and then kill it?
Mongoose I would not call them an expert, they've done ok in their basic plans. It's their long term plan that has some problems it would seem.

I guess we should buy up all the GZG Slammers we can before it's too late.

He should call John Tuffley.

God I hope Mongoose doesn't get this. I am rushing over to Drake's website to send an e-mail to him right now.

Mongoose may or may not have competence in writing rules. I will let others judge. That being said, I feel they have no competence in running a business. Their communications, their commitment to release schedules, their commitment to new lines (and subsequent abandonment) all point toward disaster for a writer of the calibre of Mr. Drake.

Look elsewhere, Mr. Drake, look elsewhere.

Everyone feels the same trepidation about this one then?

Wasn`t the old boardgame by Avalon Hill? Why not just bring out an updated version of this, but not bloody Mongoose, noooooo!

AS

"I would not call them an expert"

They are certainly experts in ruining games and their own reputation.

Well thats a whole lot of hate.

Mongoose have dropped the ball recently on a number of things (getting into prepaints hasn't been a smooth ride for anyone you know) but without meaning to sound like a fanboy the games themselves are well above average in playability..

So they haven't supported all of the games we'd like (as a GoMC1 player I feel the pain) but maybe its because not of enough of us bozos spent the money to support the product. Noone (except maybe GW..) drop something if its running in the black.

Whats better a Hammers game or no Hammers game?

'Whats better a Hammers game or no Hammers game?'

Well I can tell ya what's worse, a Hammers game that either dosn't meet the expectation or wild over the top claims of the manufacturer or one that is cut down in it's prime.

I own lots of Mongoose stuff, I like the game rules but have had lots of issues with the quality of their products however and the way the release them.

So they haven't supported all of the games we'd like (as a GoMC1 player I feel the pain) but maybe its because not of enough of us bozos spent the money to support the product. Noone (except maybe GW..) drop something if its running in the black.

No, its their fault for not keeping up production with the games they put out and screwing up the basic premise of their licenses (I can just see it – the mongoose way would be a game of Slammers fighting Bugs but without any of the armored vehicles…).

No new Slammers game (I still own my copy of the Mayfair version) is better than a Mongoose Slammers game. That's not hate, that's disappointment at Mongoose consistently screwing the pooch on their licensed games.

We have Hammer's games. Minis and rulebooks already exist. The board game can be found on Ebay and such with a bit searching. And there are several options for grav tank games that with a bit of imagination could be used for Hammer's Slammers.

Do we need Mongoose's versions? Absolutely not. They are hacks at best that managed to make a name for themselves by spewing out piles and piles of poor d20 books. Then they swindled their way into licenses with people that clearly did not research Mongoose enough. The company values quantity over quality and has a repeated history of broken promises and lies.

This would be a poor choice that would do more to ruin the good name of Hammer's Slammers then it would ever do good.

-r

>>>So they haven't supported all of the games we'd like (as a GoMC1 player I feel the pain) but maybe its because not of enough of us bozos spent the money to support the product. Noone (except maybe GW..) drop something if its running in the black.

Thank you, Btomhutuk, you make the point eloquently. If a game is not commercially sustainable (or, as you say, not enough people support it), the only sensible and reasonable course of action is to stop what is loosing you money and try something new. Anything else is madness.

However, you raised Gangs as an example. We had a longer run with that than we ever intended, and kept on supporting it in S&P (which, contrary to what some believe _is_ support – articles do not grow on trees). However, it was always intended to be a limited scope game (gangs fighting gangs and judges), and so there were never going to be continual releases for it beyond a certain point. We did look at doing a megway based game with gangs on bikes and vehicles but, frankly, that would have been an entirely new game, and we were not confident it would be supported.

>>>Whats better a Hammers game or no Hammers game?

Hammers miniatures already exist, so we won't be doing them anytime soon. Mr Drake is also not quite correct when he talks about a boardgame – it is actually a roleplaying game, where I believe people will find our reputation not only intact but doing very well. We have acknowledged the problems we've had with miniatures themselves, which is exactly why we have pulled out of the miniatures market and have no firm plans to return. Sure, we would like to, but we won't make a step until we can resolve everything that has gone before. Miniatures games themselves we'll keep on doing because, frankly, they are something we do well. And, as an aside, you can trace the current BF Evo: World at War back through SST, and back to Gangs of Mega-City One – in a funny way, we have supported and developed the same miniatures system for a few years.

As for those who are truly angry (over miniatures, no less!) about us leaving the miniatures market, I apologise to you. Really, I am sorry. However, if it is a choice between that and watching those lines pull down everything else we have built over the past seven years, then it is really no choice at all. I hope you can see that no sensible company-owner would choose differently.

Hey Matt,

Speaking of miniatures, how's Monkey's Drakh ships coming along?

Umm, who is Monkey? :)

If you or he (it?) can drop me a line at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com, then we'll sort you out ASAP.

"He should call John Tuffley."

So that a game would come out in 2038?

Sorry, but how long have you waited for FT3?

The overall problem with commments in this topic is that few readers seem to have bothered to understand the news item. There's all this sturm und drang about miniatures, when even the original item clearly referred to a board game.

That said, I can't bring myself to care in the slightest whether or not Mongoose comes out with a Hammer's Slammers RPG. I'm just not interested in the RPG.

Bottomline for me and it appears some other Hammer-philes, is hoping and waiting Old Crow does their "Drake approved" M2s, M9s, etc. in 6mm. Rules – we have the two handbooks/rules from Treadaway. Plus rules from other sources that could work. I've e-talked with O/C in the past … and Jez gave me a "kind'a definite maybe", with no time frame of course. But as noted elsewhere, there are a number of "Stand-ins" from GZG, Ironwind, Fortress, etc. that could be used. But it seems to me, there is a market for 6mm Slammers more so than role-play … So we'll have to wait and see … ;-)

I think Mongoose's track record with RPG's is much better than one or two of their other products.

AND

I don't care about RPG's anyway!

Hey Mongoose, what about your other licensed material like Starship Troopers! It was poised to be a real competitor to Warhammer 40K before you got sidetracked on Battlefield Evolution. Now another licensed board game with possible miniatures game? I think someone at Mongoose has ADD.

@emicknney

"They'd like to do a miniatures game also, but I told them they would have to deal with Pireme"

There is a suggestion to Pireme out there to compile the books. Talks of licensing would delay/complicate this IMHO. That was what I was getting at. If they want to make a board game…more power to them.

>>>It was poised to be a real competitor to Warhammer 40K

It really wasn't. In fact, that was part of the problem.

>>>Now another licensed board game with possible miniatures game? I think someone at Mongoose has ADD.

Like someone presuming there will be a board game and miniatures?

Well, the Mongoose view of SST didn't get my money because of my preference for 6mm scale for "The Book" style battles. Nothing except the Cougar type figures really did it for me very much because of the scale. That said, I thought I was in the minority overall originally. Enthusiam gushed forth at the very idea. I think there were lots of missed expectations, valid or not. That's a lot of karma to overcome.

If this works, fine, not really relevant to my gaming in Sci-Fi. If not I fully expect to only look for figures to add to my collection/armies. RPG? Did that in the 1970's and 1980's: Been there, done that, got the tee shirt, ho hum.

If this doesn't work I still will treat Mongoose the same as I do currently. Which means a few minutes to see any new figures then on to more likely stuff. Should they make something that catches my attentionI will buy it.

Good luck but obviously you should expect a lot of skepticism from previously disappointed potential customers. And perhaps (note I did say perhaps) rightly so…

Gracias,

Glenn

emckinney wrote inj respons e to the quote below:

"He should call John Tuffley."

So that a game would come out in 2038?

Sorry, but how long have you waited for FT3?

Much as I hate to admit it/agree with emckinney, this is very true and I have to concur. Jon's apparent perfectionism or overloaded schedule or hectic life in general (I am not sure which) has made FT3, DS3, BDS, and FMA skirmish pretty much "maybe-ware" [one step above vaprware] and people have moved on to other rules.

Actually I woul;d rather ahve him sculping Indonesian Commonwealth in 15mm and 6mm. Wait…what is in this drink??

Gracias,

Glenn

"Drake is also not quite correct when he talks about a boardgame – it is actually a roleplaying game, where I believe people will find our reputation not only intact but doing very well."

RPG… as in an "official" supplement for the new Traveller???

Well, that's a horse of different color! Put me down for a copy!

MongooseMatt wrote:
"Umm, who is Monkey? :)

If you or he (it?) can drop me a line at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com, then we'll sort you out ASAP."

Monkey's the TMP name TMP link for my friend whom you promised on this forum back in Feburary to send replacements for is horribly mis-csast Drakh ships. He's been emailing you latley as he's still not received them.

>>>Monkey's the TMP name TMP link for my friend whom you promised on this forum back in Feburary to send replacements for is horribly mis-csast Drakh ships. He's been emailing you latley as he's still not received them.

They were sent, but I have not seen any emails from him. Would you like to drop me a line with his email address, and I'll get in touch.

Personally, I don't understand all of the hostility directed towards Mongoose. I had fun with SST and B:Evo. I thought B:Evo didn't have enough color to hold my interest, but with the new open license there should be tons of new product coming out. I know some friends that created a Zombie game.(it looks really sharp) I've been told by friends that play RPGs that their games are solid. I've heard that Traveller RPG is really good. However, I just don't have the time for RPGs-so I'll never know for sure. They can't continue to support products that don't make money.

Just sent the email you requested Matt, please let us know if you get it.

Personally, I don't understand all of the hostility directed towards Mongoose

Nice new rule book for B5, nice new fleet list book for B5. Serious investment in both on my part, time spent deciding which fleets I wanted. Sudden announcement that the lines were dead. It does look as though they planned to drop out of figure production some time ago judging by the lack of new moulds and the quality drop off. I wouldn't say it was deceitful but it does smack of unfounded optimism that things would get better on their own.

Personally I like RPG's and I have no problems with Mongoose as a company (in any dealings I had with them in the past they seem like a fine bunch of chaps!). My only concerns are about 'look and feel' and one other issue.

The 'Look and feel' side is important to me as I worked pretty hard with Dave Drake to get the vehicles for the Slammers as HE wanted them, as opposed to every front cover of every book he'd had published which were, in all fairness (and in pretty much his own words) 'Bill Boards' so advertise the content he'd written.

I think it'll be a shame if Mongoose try and introduce material – content wise as well as visually – that doesn't fit in with that. After all, there are plenty of other less well described SF environments out there to do that to!!

My other concern, though, gaming wise, is the lack of releases for the game. I too would like to see the rules combined into a one volume set, with some extra add ons, more colour and a few play tested errata ironed out. I'd also like to see a 6mm set of miniatures. The only thing I can do is write stuff and lay out (or re-lay out) rules and so on. I'm not sure if there is sufficient interest from Pireme, GZG/Old Crow AND the gaming audience to warrant any of the above: but I wish it were so!

Perhaps an RPG will ignite some further interest in what I think is a fantastic gaming background for military SF enthusiasts?

John T

Direct from David Drake comes and email about the Mongoose issue. I emailed him per a suggestion on this discussion and he replied with this…

June 6, 2008
Dear Guys,

Because there are a lot of you.

There was a board-game query last year after twenty
years of inaction. We (meaning Kay again) put a contract together.
Then nothing for six months until they were informed that we'd had
another offer and assumed that they had lost interest.

Oh, no! It'd had just been an unfortunate slip in their office.

Well, maybe; but I'd heard of Mongoose and they've been
around a while. We've gone with Mongoose.

I do appreciate your concern, but _Mongoose_ hasn't
played games with me yet.

Best wishes,
Dave Drake

Well then I wish Mongoose luck and will keep an open mind until the product comes out. My hope is that even if Drake does not have creative control that Mongoose will still run the background info by Drake to ensure it fits the universe.

I would agree that for game mechanics Drake would be correct to step out of the way.

Plus I suppose if people want mini's to go with the game this would boost orders for OC, GZG and maybe Pireme.

"Do we need Mongoose's versions? Absolutely not. They are hacks at best that managed to make a name for themselves by spewing out piles and piles of poor d20 books. Then they swindled their way into licenses with people that clearly did not research Mongoose enough. The company values quantity over quality and has a repeated history of broken promises and lies."

Quoted for truth.

I consider MongTrav to be a fluke in that its playable and the production quality wasn't their usual (ie, crap) standards. I chalk that up to Marc Miller implanting bombs in their heads and having his finger on the detonator button.

Mr.Drake should SERIOUSLY rethink having his IP anywhere NEAR Mongooses' incompetant ery.

I am quite impressed with many of the more recent Mongoose products. In the past I did have some concerns about their editing and some design decisions but their version of Traveller is not bad at all. I would assume this would be the parent system for a Hammer's Slammers RPG though Traveller tends to focus on older characters so how they handle a FNG just off the farm is going to be interesting – ironically this seems more similar to the classic fantasy RPG setup – a young character with a minimum of experience.

I must admit though it is not a product I would ever have imagined as a RPG and I am not sure it would translate particularly well though my concerns would be more about the viability of a military campaign. There is of course ‘The Sharp End' in which a small group of disparate slammers make a big impact on a small planet.

I think I would be cautiously optimistic about the project.