Help support TMP


"New Play Aid for DBMM" Topic


20 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Return to the New Play Aid for DBMM News



Areas of Interest

General

1,261 hits since 2 Jun 2008
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP03 Jun 2008 2:25 p.m. PST

I tried to do the same kind of thing for a Trojan War game I wanted to design, but gave up when I realized that I would hate it.

aecurtis Fezian Inactive Member03 Jun 2008 2:48 p.m. PST

You call *that* a flow chart? Now Empire V: *those* were flow charts!

Allen

Terrement03 Jun 2008 3:04 p.m. PST

Posted the following on the blog, in response to a Yahoo post by Mr. Barker:

"God save me from flow charts! I have concocted too many myself in the past. My advice is to start reading the rules from the front through to the back. Everything is written in the order you need to know it."

Phil Barker, 03 Jun 2008"

Were that actually true, there wouldn't be so many discussions on so many boards about the rules that sound like:
"The attacking party shall be designated as the party of the first part except when the second party (the party of the second part) becomes the party of the first part in lieu of the original party of the first part under the general circumstances (not to be confused with the general principles, or general electric who is a purveyor of electrical goods, not to be confused with the conveyor of the goods which is a belted drive mechanism (+2 for uphill, +1 for electrical power, void where prohibited by law some assembly required, batteries not included) which shall move the electrical goods forward at a standard rate unless in rough going or out of the command radius of the party of the second part (formerly known as the party of the first part) or when uphill or charging pike armed heavy infantry (+1 for each additional rank, +1 if supported by skirmishers) in which case the general prudential rule (not to be confused with the rule of General Prudential of the Fatimid (See book III a army 47, with all options) in which case the earlier definitions of the parties of all respective parts are restored by a 1 rolled on an average D6."

Yes, before all of you purists get a knot in your knickers, I KNOW Mr. Barker's english usage is technically correct, but especially for a newcomer to wargaming, picking up one of the DB? rules books and trying to make heads or tails of it without a mentor is at best a daunting task, and in many cases overwhelming enough to say "Heck with this" and find a rule set that is less arcanely worded, cross-referenced, with illustrations and examples.

Number6 Inactive Member03 Jun 2008 4:01 p.m. PST

A flow chart like this is great for something that is done only once per game. If you have to do it more than once, you need to rework the mechanics.

darthfozzywig Supporting Member of TMP03 Jun 2008 5:07 p.m. PST

Nothing says "fun!" like flow charts!

I'm holding out for MicroSoft's latest game, "Visio: the Darkening". Just hope I don't have to rebase all of my spreadsheets for it.

Personal logo Patrick R Supporting Member of TMP03 Jun 2008 10:19 p.m. PST

Reminds me of "Stars and Bars"

Down with beer and pretzel games, I want to count rivets. In fact I want to count the layers of spiral on the rivet and I want to know its carbon content and the air pressure when it was cast !!

Bring on the modifiers and tables the size of NASA computer core dumps !!!

Martin Rapier04 Jun 2008 2:47 a.m. PST

Rules which require a set of flow charts to aid understanding…

I thought we'd left the 80s behind?

Personal logo Lentulus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member04 Jun 2008 3:18 a.m. PST

Flow charts are so 1970s. The whole rule book should be re-written in UML grin

Actually, I think this sort of thing is a good idea. Not everyone has the same way of learning, and diagram can be great for visual people.

When I want to learn a rules set, I actually write a precis and diagram chunks of the system -- mostly state diagrams and the like. Not for others to use, just to get it through my skull.

Pohtonen04 Jun 2008 3:39 a.m. PST

Nice flow chart, but it reminds me why I stopped playing DBx games. The rules were too hard to follow and understand. I know part of the problem was I was playing DBA, DBM and DBR and they each had different basic rules. Fleeing is different in all 3 games. Why?

platypus01au04 Jun 2008 3:45 a.m. PST

Number6 is right.

Luckily, this flow chart _is_ only needed once per game. At the start.

I quite like it.

G^is,
JohnG

warwell04 Jun 2008 3:52 a.m. PST

Seems to me that a flow chart like this acts as an advertisement NOT to buy DBMM

Mr Elmo04 Jun 2008 4:56 a.m. PST

I would agree, "And now with flowchart" is not exactly a selling point. Seems like DBMM would be a great game for all those people playing the Ad Astra titles.

Terrement04 Jun 2008 6:30 a.m. PST

"I know part of the problem was I was playing DBA, DBM and DBR and they each had different basic rules. Fleeing is different in all 3 games. Why?"

Because it made sense to Phil Barker.
Just like his rules.

Doesn't matter if it made sense to anyone else.

"Actually, I think this sort of thing is a good idea. Not everyone has the same way of learning, and diagram can be great for visual people."

I agree, and the ones by Two Hour Wargames I think are a good example. They are an assist and a quick reference, rather than having to serve as the Rosetta Stone for deciphering what was meant in the rules themselves.

Personal logo Lentulus Supporting Member of TMP Inactive Member04 Jun 2008 10:48 a.m. PST

And now, an alternative opinion on diagrammed complexity:

TMP link

Personal logo Bobgnar Supporting Member of TMP04 Jun 2008 11:03 a.m. PST

I gave my son-in-law to be a copy of the draft version of DBA 2.0 and asked him to read it, and come back the next week to play a game. He is late 20's, college degree. As a potential relative, I knew he would try.

Next week he came back. I had laid out a board and a couple of armies, but not set up. I said, ok let's start, what shall we do first.

He says, in all humility, "I read these but I really do not understand what to do."

Personal logo John the OFM Supporting Member of TMP04 Jun 2008 11:33 a.m. PST

Posted the following on the blog, in response to a Yahoo post by Mr. Barker:

"God save me from flow charts! I have concocted too many myself in the past. My advice is to start reading the rules from the front through to the back. Everything is written in the order you need to know it."

Phil Barker, 03 Jun 2008"

In the immortal words of Mandy Rice Davies regarding Lord Astor, "He would say that, wouldn't he?"

Sysiphus Inactive Member04 Jun 2008 2:16 p.m. PST

there are obviously not enough "dull 8 year-olds" around to enlighten the rest of us grin

Whatisitgood4atwork04 Jun 2008 5:15 p.m. PST

The best learning aid in the world is another human being that takes a bit of time to tell you how to do something. The rest are pale imitations.

I enjoy DBA and DBR and have enjoyed DBM in the past, but if I had learned entirely from the written rules rather than club players, I doubt whether I would have played one game.

vexillia05 Jun 2008 2:40 a.m. PST

New version posted today with cleaner look and an error corrected and available at:

link

Thanks for helping the befuddled.

---
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
vexillia.ltd.uk
Personal web logs
vexillia.blogspot.com
pikeandplunder.blogspot.com

Aloysius the Gaul Inactive Member05 Jun 2008 8:45 p.m. PST

Flow charts are good when you need them – however it does need to be pointed out that lots of DBMM players have not needed them (loud and silly posts to the contrary notwithstanding the aforementioned…..), and as has been pointed out…..this is for the few that are befuddled….whether by chance or, sadly, by choice (which is not the case here but does seem the be the case for many!)

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.