"Late Queen: "Good News for the 100,000+ SCW Gamers"" Topic

I agree with Dan Cyr. Very lukewarm after such a public outcry of "Thief, thief". Good thing Peter had pretty conclusive proof or Martin would have continued to ruin an apparent honest man's business venture.

But of course he makes a nice line of minis so everyone says let's just forget the whole thing. What happens next time when the honest man can't provide such conclusive proof due to circumstances beyond his control? I guess then Martin will be "right"?

Just playing devils advocate here but wasn't they sculpted to imitate the Peter Pig figures? If work is based on anothers, then can we assume it is at some point an infringement of the originators work?

How much trouble would it have been for Peter to have changed the position of the legs in the first place? Maybe in the future one would suggest to design something totally different from anothers work whereas to not raise suspicion.

Well Mark Hannam might have got here late but it looks like I arrived well after the horse had bolted. I can only concur with earlier views of the Peter Frost figures…they are perfectly compatable with Peter Pig's ranges, which of course was probably the intention in the first place. They are lovely figures that should be in the collection of all 15mm SCW gamers as should Martin's range which kicked off the SCW in 15mm.

Best outcome of all from this sorry thread is the new receognition that not all SCW games are being played in the giant 28mm scale as most announcements of late have given that impression. Lets' hope we can all press on from this episode and get on with the serious issue of saving Spain for our chosed cause, in 15mm of course.

Graham Minshaw

As an SCW fan and owner of thousands of Martins little piggies I was at first pleasantly suprised to see a new range that looked like it would fit in well with the piggies. Then I thought, hmm, are they a bit too close to the piggies for comfort? Then I read this thread….

The figures ARE very similar and I can understand Martin wanting to comment – if he had not someone would have done so at some stage. The bottom line is that the figures are original but based very closely on the style of Martins work to be compatible. Perhaps the designer is guilty of being a bit naive rather than ripping anything off?

Martin should have dealt with this off forum, and his accusations were hugely serious. As a very regular buyer of his figures I am disappointed that he has only grudgingly apologised and then bolted for the door.

The upshot for me is that I am now thinking about SCW again and looking to buy from BOTH these people, so ultimately I think they will both benefit from this debate.

What happens next time when the honest man can't provide such conclusive proof due to circumstances beyond his control? I guess then Martin will be "right"?

What happens next time a dishonest man tries pirating something? Do we all sit round and ignore it like we normally do? Come on guys we all know it happens! I've seen particularly in the 20mm WW2 market stuff I know was pirated from plastic kits, but I couldn't prove it and it wasn't my intelectual property so let it be.
The dice are very much loaded in favour of the pirater I'm afraid. I remember back 30+ years ago Neville Dickinson of Miniature Figurines found out somwbody down under (can't remember if it was Aus or NZ) was pirating Minifigs. Direct copies too, not conversions. It cost him UK£20,000 to get him to stop (a lot of money 30 years ago, heck you could buy a house for that much!) and he didn't get a penny in compensation.
Fortunately both Peter and Martin are honest men and on the side of the good guys. So I'm glad this is all resolved.

It should be handled in private and between the individuals involved. Martin did Peter an injustice and no amount of "what about all the other pirates" excuses it in my mind. A proper apology is called for but I'm not the one who was on the receiving end of things so I guess I should leave well enough alone.

I just hate to see people shoot off their mouths around here and then when wrong, fail to be as forthcoming with their humble pie.

Hi all

Just have to add some comments on this

Anarch wrote:
"How much trouble would it have been for Peter to have changed the position of the legs in the first place? Maybe in the future one would suggest to design something totally different from anothers work whereas to not raise suspicion."

I am sorry, but this is just nonsence.
1) No one can holds the right to a specific placement of bodyparts. If that was the case with it wouldn't be possible to sculpt anything that didn't look like it had been done before.

2)There are are only a certain amount of poses that work well (look cool)in 15mm scale. I did 8 moving poses, that I like and who are disceranble from each other.

Wargamesmarket wrote:
"The bottom line is that the figures are original but based very closely on the style of Martins work to be compatible."

This is only true to the extent, that they are of the same height and general volume:
We do heads in different style. Mine are based on tutorials for 28 mm figures (Big Miller Bro did a good one), The legs on my figures are rounded – Martins tend to be more square. My waistline lies about a mm or more higher than PP ones. Martin "carves" his front pockets, I put them on afterwards. I tend to make the feet shorter and more stubby. Etc, etc.

But this takes a trained eye to see on the figures in real life.

You can claim copyright to a certain piece, I agree, but not to a style or craft.

Cheers,

Peter

"Best outcome of all from this sorry thread is the new receognition that not all SCW games are being played in the giant 28mm scale as most announcements of late have given that impression."

Not my fault that I was the only company releasing anything new for the SCW ;-]]

Anyway, nice to see the issue resolved, I never doubted Peter's integrity for one minute, and its good to see that he has come out of this with his reputation intact.

Also good to see some new stuff for the 15mm SCW gang to play with, now you just need some more vehicles to go with the figures.

Nigel H
Anglian Miniatures
(purveyors of giant 28mm SCW figures;-})

now you just need some more vehicles to go with the figures

Ooh, ooh, my cue: link

Geoff

That's it? After all the written mud directed at the accused, with repeated assaults and sarcasm, all that is offered is a "my appologies and I'm going away to sulk"?

wow

Let this be a warning to all those sculpting… photograph in high detail every single step of your process or you too can/will be targeted by a nay sayer who relies on the grand internet shield to protect him from what would be a daily ars beating.

Piggies owes a public display of a genuine apology.

Be the seasoned vetern you are rumored to be, man up, and pass the ball…you are in the scrum by your own choice…so make the right choice and play the game you started.

Now who has sulied who, and which reputation is muddied?

I am curious…is it better to be an ass (which we have all done, repeatedly) and admit it with same passion…or to be an ass and then sulk away?

Touche! Nigel H.

Of course being a 15mm scale SCW afficianado does not mean that I can't be tempted by the larger figures for skirmishing with does it?

Anyway it is great to see new SCW products in any scale as it all adds to the inspiration factor that keeps us going.

Graham

Oh and Geoff When is that bus going to make it into your range? Durrutti and his boys (and girls of course) have been waiting at the bus stop in Barcelona for ages! Two thousand singles to Zaragossa please.

Of course you wait for ages for a bus to turn up and then…….

Graham

Peter Said, "We do heads in different style. Mine are based on tutorials for 28 mm figures"

And your head don't look like a freaky Jay Leno-Dudley DoRight mug ;)

So do get back to gaming – I struggle with rules for SCW. I would prefer a larger scale set for bigger battle – what do people use??

Spearhead are good for bigger battles, there was a conversion set for rapid fire about as well but the name escapes me at the mo

"Rompan el Fuego"

Should be available from Caliver Books or Rolf Hedges.

RF is easy to doctor for the SCW. Main change is to class the troops morale and training seperately, for example Durrutti's militia (on a good day) were as brave as anyone but still abysmally trained as soldiers so class them as elite for morale and green for firing.

Graham

Speaking of rules, has anything heard any news about the SCW version of FoW getting released in English?

In Spain it has just been published "España en Llamas", an adaptation of FoW to SCW. The editorial is the same that the magazine WSS… I am thinking in doing a Guardia Civil company…

Eric, make your questions here

link

I have nothing particular invested in this, since I game neither 15mm nor SCW. ;) In the long run, though, I think this discussion being in public will help rather than hurt. If there was enough visual similarity to worry Martin, then there is enough that people might assume they were copies without ever actually bringing it up. This public discussion should put such assumptions to rest. I'll agree this could have better been handled on Martin's part as a private discussion to begin with rather than the opening question. But in the long run I think airing all this out will help.

If there was enough visual similarity to worry Martin, then there is enough that people might assume they were copies without ever actually bringing it up

Actually, from comments a couple of people have made, when you hold both manufacturer's figures together in your hand they are notably different.

While, for 2 seperate manufacturer's photographs on a screen, they are notably alike. from the photo's with both standing and kneeling figures, I would have said the kneeling figures were not the same manufacturer as the standing figures. that view would probably change by "in your hand" inspection.

I thought this debate regarding the provinance of these new figures had been cleared and put to bed up by the supplied photos of the part sculpted figures.

I have some of Peter's work and they are very compatable with Peter Pig's miniatures…however they are clearly not copies, conversions or hybrids and "in the flesh" are noticably different in execution to Peter Pig's existing ranges.

Quite how a certain stance or attribute such as a face with open mouth can be considered unique to a particular manufacturer is beyond me!

Lets now simply await a SCW recruitment drive in 15mm and perhaps this debate will mean more figures for us all from different makers as there clearly is a large number of potential purchasers…although not as many as the thread heading might suggest alas.

Graham

There is no doubt that peter has shown all the work is his own and original from his greens and dolly figures. People holding the figures can tell the difference. people looking at product photos of his first releases will not be so sure. As most first contact is over the internet, holding them in the hand isnt an option.

I would suggest that peter considers getting the first range re-photographed after a professional paint job of the quality of his carlists.

"30+ years ago Neville Dickinson of Miniature Figurines found out somwbody down under (can't remember"

Militery Miniatures of New Zealand.

Gentlemen!

Sorry to keep you waiting, but i have been moving from my old appartment to my new life in a house in suburbia this weekend. Still a bit stessed from the lack of noise from police sirens and cheap take-away places. Anyway, i am the idiot who apparently caused much of this debate as i was the one who made the comment:

"And all of it is actually based on PP figures, but if you dont know you would never notice."

Its been a while since i wrote this and what i specifically wanted to express with this particular sentence eludes me today. I think that i was actually referring to the fact that all of the RCW army we were working on is almost exclusively based on PP figures and that it was nice that Peters (TLQ) figures cold be painted up as greeks and used for the Odessa campaign without causing any concern of compatibility.

I never wanted to imply that the figures were stolen, copied or anything else from PP. I am a HUGE fan of PP figures and have by now an impressive red army for RCW alsmost interely based on PP figures. Train and all. I am now working on an expansion with the whites, but with reality stacking up in front of me it may take a litle longer than i was hoping.

Having said that, i would also say that i know Peter and has known him for more than 20 years by now. I have also been following Peters work on these figures for a long time now. I cannot imagine a situation where Peter would take someones work and call it his own – especially not when it comes to the hobby that we all care so much about and devote so much time and enery to – not to mention money.

I manage Peter website when i have the time for it. Its not as frequent as i wanted to, but real life always creeps up on me. If, in my haste, i have made comments about Peters figures which in any way could be misunderstood or in some way is misleading, please excuse me and my lack of insight in this foreign language you call english. The Late Queen has its own post-master service and i know that Petes is quite exited when a mail comes his way destined for The Late Queen – and he will get right back to you if you have any questions. I am sure.

I hope that this clears up some of the confusion and i offer my appologies to anyone here who – like myself – have been cursing my earlier post. I fear that much could have been avoided.

/thomas

Don't blame yourself Thomas. I seem to have a vague recollection of an insinuation (not by Martin I hasten to add), either on TMP or another forum back a year or more ago when Peter's original Nationalist infantry appeared, that he may have used elements of Peter Pig figures.

If your comments did give rise to what has followed in the thread above, maybe it's been for the best to clear the air once, and I hope, for all.

Now don't do it again!

Cheers
Mark

I like the name "The Late Queen." It's an awesome name for a company.

"Speaking of rules, has anything heard any news about the SCW version of FoW getting released in English?"

I have a HUGE chunk done, but when there were some changes to the FOW system I put it on hold until things settled down. Personally I'm waiting until the Early War is addressed, otherwise I think my time might be waisted.

Right now I have over 30 pages of material, with over 50 planned for each side of the conflict. 100 pages of effort would be a shame if the Early War period has some significant changes.

I should note that my work (some feedback was shared here, and some on the FOW chat board) we done significantly eariler than the Spanish FOW guys. Not that mine is "better"….probably the exact opposite! If they had their book in English I would purchase it immediately, alas, it is only available in Spanish (to my knowledge).

I'm sure a scan of the boards here and there will generate some hits, if anyone is interested.

Hi delljohnb

I think they are having plans for releasing it in English, I but haven't heard of any release date.

Cheers,

Peter

Are these guys still around? Their URL is dead.