"Late Queen: "Good News for the 100,000+ SCW Gamers"" Topic

No, it doesn't give him any extra bonus points

I too hope to clear up the matter and then continue on. But I do see my own work before me!!

"But I do see my own work before me!!"

then photo it…post it…and point EXACTLY the points of similarity. THAT is fact. Show me where the folds in the pants exactly match those in Peter's work. THEN it would be up to Peter to defend himself.

Oh….btw…despite all this, I think that Peter Pig products are excellent. I currently own a good amount, and I anticipate purchasing more in the future.

Dear Martin,

I understand your concern but as a member of the same club as Peter I can bear witness to the fact that the figures are 100% genuine Peter Frost creations.

Peter has put a lot of time, effort and money into producing this range and I sincerely hope you resolve this issue in a proper manner.

Morten

Dear Martin,

Sincerely hope this gets resolved as soon as possible but I can fully understand your anxiety.

However, don't forget that you sort of set a standard for high quality 15mm figures, and that any new manufacturer worth his salt would try to emulate this. I wouldn't be able to sculpt a figure if my life depended on it, but if I were I would surely take your figures as a guideline.

Indeed, small details like the soles you mentioned,or the almost true to scale weapons are what makes you figures unique. And yes, I like those 'screaming figures'

I didn't get your SCW figures since I went back to my first love and 28mm figures, especially after Nigel started with his superb range.

I could be that Peter has made a benchmark out of your figures and tried to make them as compatible as possible, even to the point of emulating some of the finer details. If that's the case he made a very sensible decision.

You will have to give me some time. Wife will be home in 3-4 hours with the car, have to get a camera from a friend, take pictures and upload to a site.

The more quickly you can provide the photo, the better. Otherwise, you leave open the possibility that you sculpted something "after the fact."

Well, Peter said that he had the dollies cast. 16 pair of legs. Wouldn't a bill/receipt from the casting company act as good-faith proof? I'm not a lanuage arts professional, but I did notice that he didn't say "I cast them", but he said that he had them cast. That implies that he didn't do them himself. Certainly a receit would be more proof in his favor than proof against him. Bill, I still don't feel that the burden of proof is upon him.

Boy nothing like a good witch hunt.

First the gentleman at peter pig should have tried to resolve this off line. Second the idea that Peter would run home and quickly sculpt something is really far fetched.

I have been watching Peter Sculpt these figures for a couple of years now, his original greens where sent to England from Denmark to be cast, he then received dollies and figures which he than used to "convert" to other poses.

The gaming group here in Copenhagen uses almost exclusively Peter Pig figures and they where the goal as far as quality and "look". Without a doubt Peter used the look as a goal in his own artistic endeavors and the results have in my opinion in many ways surpassed those of Peter Pig. Now as to proof why don't both sides send each other a sample of the disputed figs and then post photos here on the board.

I also think that Peter Pigs unsubstantiated accusations boarder on slander but hey that is just me. I am looking forward to a very Humble apology from Mr Peter Pig when this is resolved.

William
Keyser

Proof of what? That they were cast? The question here is the origin of the base dollies, not who cast them. We know they were cast, it's just a question of what was cast.

Anyone can create a receipt for anything, and not everyone has a need to keep them.

We do have a semi independant reviewer who compares figures. Don Mcvite of Nordalia. It would be a bit unusual, but the parties could have it looked at by that particular gentleman.

But in terms of the response on Burden of proof, I would be phoning the friend and telling him to get a taxi PDQ! or asking Neighbours if they have a camara or phoning the wife……If I had invested money in producing something and its reputation was on the line.

Only peter can prove his originality…

from the greens, he shows he can sculpt.

Hopefully, he can prove he didnt take short cuts , but looking at some of the figures does seem to justify Martin's questioning.

Well…Martin hasn't provided ANY evidence. Proof is like Irish Stew. If you look at any one piece, you cannot say it it stew. A piece of meat, or a carrot, maybe a piece of potato. BUT, when seen as a whole there is something there. At this point, Peter has had at least one person attent to their authenticity from first hand. That is indeed more proof than Martin has supplied. And why should Peter have to prove his provenance? Shouldn't Martin have the burden of proof since he is the one making an accusation? One of the reasons for this is the obvious difficulty in proving a negative. On the other hand proving a positive if quite easy if that person is in the right. If these were priated, why hasn't Martin provided the proof? It's beginning to look like he hasn't provided proof because he cannot. Certainly if Peter did make these himself then Martin would be incapable of providing proof that they were copied.
The perspective should not be the origin of the dollies; the perspective should be the basis of the accusation.
Certainly any infringement litigation will require that Martin provide the proof. The burden of proof will NOT be on Peter.

Any comment from

"And all of it is actually based on PP figures, but if you dont know you would never notice."??

Just the one pair of legs/base should solve it (I recognise the shoe/foot!(cinderella) as requested earlier. I would have to go through thousands of figures to find it but I hope Peter only has a couple of dozen master figures.

Martin

Hi all,

I finaly managed to get hold of a camera. I not a computer wiz. so first image you can find here:

link

It is correct that Thomas wrote:
"And all of it is actually based on PP figures, but if you dont know you would never notice."??

But I really cant comment on that. It's not my statement. You will have to ask him. He offline at the moment – because he is moving to a new house, and won't be able to answer. But give it a try.

I will go and have my dinner now, and return later. I have taken photographs of a lot of my masters and figures. And will resize these and upload them.

And

Although, there is a marked similarity between the poses and the bases (something I've often found to be a distinctive feature of Peter Pig figures), Peter's photo here does appear to show an original green with no evidence of a metal understructure based on a Peter Pig figure. Looking at the detail, the marks, holes, folds, soles etc do seem to be replicated in the metal cast dolly on which the final figure is built.

With regards to: "And all of it is actually based on PP figures, but if you dont know you would never notice" he may have been referring to the fact that Peter Pig figures were used as the style guide, rather than being physically based on them… but only he would know what he actually meant.

Geoff

well now, that looks like something made from a combination of green and brown stuff.
Unless of course you wish to accuse Peter of perhaps painting the metals to look like that, or maybe he just threw it together this afternoon!!!

Start baking gentlemen, I think that large portions of humble pie may well be on the menu tonight ;-]]]

All got a bit silly really did'nt it, Peter just wanted a nice SCW range, he likes the Peter Pig figures, so he used those as a guide to create his own. OK there are similarities, I think they may be deliberate to make the two ranges match up, a pleasant change from a figure company.

I must say that I sympathise with Martin – I know what it's like to have your products ripped off. I can, however, say that I bought some Spanish Foreign Legion from Peter last year, a venture he undertook before forming his company The Late Queen, and those figures match beautifully with my Peter Pig SCW troops and are clearly designed to do just that, but they are certainly all original work.

Could his friend's comments that they were based on Peter Pig figures have meant that they were inspired by them – lets face it Martin's sculpting IS inspiringly great – rather than based on them in a literal sense. These Scandinavians are, afterall, posting here in what is not their native tongue.

I hope both of you chaps get it sorted out amicably, the Spanish Civil War is a great period, and it is great to have two ranges that can be used along side each other.

Cheers

Richard

Well that certainly proves that set of legs. It would be churlish to refute the very good quality pictures provided by Peter. I still have reservations.It would be wrong to continue to moan so I will stop. My apologies to Peter and to the TMP community. I think by my actions I have made many enemies at TMP so I will gracefully leave TMP for some time. Thanks for all those who replied direct to me with evidence from their PP collections.

Martin at P Pig

Is that where I put my subtle advertising link in?

Martin
No need to leave, you were concerned about the figures, and voiced those concerns, It perhaps was not the best way to go about it, but you were justified in doing so.
I;m sure that I would do exactly the same thing if I saw figures that looked the same as my range.
Language problems did not help the matter, it was easy to read the comment about the figures being based on the PP range, and that you could not tell, and conclude that the figures were copies.

I hope that gamers are inspired enough to buy figures from both companies, even though 15mm is not a scale I play in anymore, the SCW is a period that holds a great fascination for me, and I would recommend that gamers with a passing interest give the period a try.

You were good enough to apologise, and I think this matter is now closed.

Nigel H

And why should Peter have to prove his provenance? Shouldn't Martin have the burden of proof since he is the one making an accusation?

Technically, no. This isn't a legal guilty/innocent situation, where the burden of proof is on the accuser. This is a case of provenance. If a person wanted to offer up to an auction house a supposedly original Monet, the burden of would be on the person offering up the painting with proof that it is indeed an original.

So the burden is on Peter to show that he is the original sculptor. "Greens" being the accepted proof, Martin has even given specific model pieces he wants to see the greens of.

Should be simple enough.

Hi again,

Apologies accepted, but I think you might have ruined my reputation as a sculptor on grounds of one blurry picture and one singe third party statement.

This conversation should never have taken place in a public forum. I contacted you off list to keep things civil, but aparantly you preferred taking a swing at me in public.

It has been most unpleasant.

I am not a thief.

If it wasn't for the geek I know who just bougt a killer macro lens, I doubt If I would have been able to produce pictures of a high enough quality.

So please be so kind as to chekout these pictures. Unfortunatley I could only upload 3 pics at a time.

link
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link
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link

Am I still banned from buying your figures Martin?

Cheers,

Peter

Never mind all that… If it wasn't for the geek I know who just bougt a killer macro lens… nice photos!

I think that Martin and Peter should now shake hands (metaphorically) and agree that both of them are bloody good sculptors. The whole affair seems unfortunate, and to answer Peters concerns about his reputation I think that his photos of the "greens" can only have done his reputation good. In many ways Peter you are better off having this aired in public as we can all now see that it is your own work. If it had happened off list all sorts of rumours may have circulated, and that would have been bad for both parties.

I will certainly be ordering some Carlists from you now that I have seen the photos!

I think Martin's wrong to think that he has made enemies, and certainly wrong to leave TMP. He had a legitimate concern, and as I have said above I think that dealing with it in an open forum has done no-one any harm. Indeed I'll be placing an order with him next week to top up my SCW armies.

Time to all move on and get playing some Spanish Civil War games.

Cheers

Rich

Peter Parker: Spider-Man wasn't trying to attack the city, he was trying to save it. That's slander.
J. Jonah Jameson: It is not. I resent that. Slander is spoken. In print, it's libel.

Martin, I do not think you need to leave TMP. The really classy thing to do, IMHO, would be to stay and take what comes, rather than retreat from it. You will convert whatever enemies you have made (not many I believe), and will bolster your reputation.

I do think you had a legitimate concern, however, the execution was flawed. Having said that, you have still left the impression you are unsatisfied even after what Peter has publicly provided, so, I would encourage you to pursue this with Peter privately and return here with the absolute verdict on all your "reservations".

Rich, I do believe you are correct in your assertion about the publicity being better off for Peter.

"Martin, I do not think you need to leave TMP."

I second this.

Martin you jumped the gun and acted like a jerk, your apology is pretty weak considering the voracity of your accusations.

"I have not been able to prove my allegations and must therefore withdraw them." Maybe you should try, "I was wrong and I'm sorry."

Now in writing this I know that being a mere human you, I and everyone on this board have made personal and professional errors in our lives and been in the same or similar boat as you find yourself in now. I know crow tastes awful, but once you eat it your plate is clean.

Peter sculpts in your style, all in all that is really pretty flattering. Will that hurt your business? No, unless you feel your quality and service are diminishing? I for one like Peter Pig and The Last Queen. I have started buying more SCW reference material so I can buy from both of you.

While the parties involved might be angry, frustrated, and even embarrassed they might want to take a breath and get some perspective. You both sculpt excellent figures and now you are making complimentary lines. Why don't you shake hands cooperate and cross promote?

Why fall on your sword and leave TMP? Your customers are here and you communicate with us.

I'm late to the party, and feeling rather unhappy about all this.

Rich wrote:

"I can, however, say that I bought some Spanish Foreign Legion from Peter last year, a venture he undertook before forming his company The Late Queen, and those figures match beautifully with my Peter Pig SCW troops and are clearly designed to do just that, but they are certainly all original work."

I'll second that. I have been permitted to see Peter's work from the beginning of his project, and have watched as he and Soren have posted greens of the Foreign Legion and CTV packs--and I've bought 'em. Just got the heads-up from Soren yesterday about the new releases.

Although these have all been sculpted to be compatible with the PP SCW range, I would never mistake one maker's work for the other when holding both in hand for scrutiny. They do work well togather, though.

And I would hope Martin would understand--and Geoff would also confirm from *his* experience--that if I had ever seen anything *too* similar, I would have been on to Martin directly. But that's never been the case; and as I said, I've *watched* Peter's work progress: greens, componenets, finished product. The Late Queen's products that I have are all undoubtedly original, IMO.

Like others, I think Martin could stand to be a little more positive about burying te hatchet. And like others, I think it would be darned silly for him to leave TMO over this. (Please note: when it comes to leaving TMP for silly reasons, I am an EXPERT!!!)

So please: let's see this resolved amicably and fully, with no lingering questions. I am a happy customer of Peter's. As well as being a PP customer of long standing, I *hope* our family is still friends with Martin, family, and company. This makes me almost ill…

Allen

And I would hope Martin would understand--and Geoff would also confirm from *his* experience--that if I had ever seen anything *too* similar, I would have been on to Martin directly.

Allen and I have had occasional 'off-the-record' conversations about the origin of certain items. He's also contacted me directly where he has had suspicions over items that may have been pirated from our figures (although in that case we agreed that, while there were similarities, this was not the case – consequently, the producer in question was never involved)

Geoff

Geoff/ Alan

That would be the certain metal product produced by Qrf (at that specific time..and another by stronghold.) that turned up in another medium identical apart from the 1/108th scale…….Yeah , completely off the record….oh….. a wild guess would be some sort of british flamethrower vehicle.

You pair just can't do "off the record " very well…..

As regards these figures, it is obvious from peters latest pix that it is all his own work and looking to be (semi) PP stylised. The fact he has done it so well that it convinced martin they were his, shows how well he has done it. Hats off to two guys who have a seamless match in figure style….if only evrything was like that!

Peter should take credit for the figures, which look like they could be the SCW range that a certain Mr curtis was ranting on about some 9 months ago regarding "15's as good as any 28's".

Martin should consider that immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

"…a wild guess would be some sort of british flamethrower vehicle."

That was a public discussion. We've kept some others "close hold" precisely to avoid this sort of misunderstanding.

"…they could be the SCW range that a certain Mr curtis was ranting on about some 9 months ago…"

Something like that, although I don;t recall that exact post.

Anyone with a great interest might consider doing a TMP title search for "15mm SCW" and an author search for "Peter N C Frost", and might see that these have been well advertised and displayed for over two years. Pity that the demise of Yahoo Photos has taken away some of the evidence.

But more tna a few TMPers have commented favorably on The Last Queen's designs as they have been shown to us.

Allen

"But more than a few…"

Allen

For what its worth the release of the Late Queen figures is likely to get me back into SCW wargaming and thus more likely to have me purchasing more of Martin's figures as well, so rather than hurting his business it will be helping it. Of course if Martin had added figures like this to his SCW range (which IIRC has remained rather static of late) that would be a different matter, but Martin does a good job through the RFCM Yahoo group of keeping customers informed of his future programme and I don't recall SCW being mentioned.

I would also second the comments regarding Martin withdrawing from TMP – don't g, just kiss and make up (metaphorically speaking).

A sudden thought though – since Peter's figures fit so well with Martin's perhaps he could be persuaded to do some modern British :)

That was a public discussion. We've kept some others "close hold" precisely to avoid this sort of misunderstanding.

As Allen says, there have been others that have raised suspicions but we have agreed not to publically disclose, have merely investigated and compared privately until we felt satisfied.

You'd be amazed at the amount of under the radar conversations I have with lots of people. We do 'off-the-record' quite well ;-)

Geoff

Well – one good thing has come from this. Those closeup shots are gorgeous Peter. Very nice work!

Allen..

the single but now relevent off thread post in that old thread was all about goums……and 1948 british/israelis.

I think it is ok that you dont automatically link new ranges of goums, 1948 british/isrealis and scw in 15mm.
Its one that nobody should need to claim age made them forget.
In fact , it makes me wonder how my brain is wired that I actually do associate them.

Err…Allen, have you asked Peter if he will do some gourmiers yet?

Well, I think Martin could have handled this in private and with a bit more finesse, as these types of accusations can seriously damage business and reputation.

However, with that said, I remain a huge fan of PP figures for all their periods, and Martin is an incredible sculptor that has really given some neglected periods serious attention in 15mm (SCW, RCW, etc.)

Will also be looking forward to buying Peter's figures as well, as they are very nicely done, and are a great compliment to the existing PP ranges …..

You'd be amazed at the amount of under the radar conversations I have with lots of people. We do 'off-the-record' quite well ;-)

Yeah, there seems to be a lot of that in this industry. Good enough.

Don.

I've been the victim (years ago) of one of Martin's public foul balls and can say that while he is reputedly a nice guy, he has a tendency to fly off the handle at times on thin evidence.

I'd suggest a very nice public apology might be in order, rather than the somewhat lukewarm one given above.

Dan

A pity this disagreement had to happen, but we are all only human and we all make mistakes.

I already buy from Martin and will continue to do so. The hobby is a small place and no one gets rich from it (don't even go down that thread – read very few if you prefer!) so I understand Martin's fears.

And now I must confess I am tempted by Peter's work too, there is no damaged reputation, I just see a new manufacturer with great products.

Hi All

I had a lot of steam to blow last night.
I'm all god now, and wan't to say a very big THANK YOU! to everyone who were fair, level headed, and gave me the benefit of doubt.

This was supposed to be a funny thread.

The wife was out most of the day: -1
We just got a 8 week old puppy: -2
2 kids aged 5 and 7: -2
Brother w camera on vacation -1
Webmaster moving house -3
Friend shows up with camera +5, but it is a cursed item. Pictures are awfull so: -1
Not my native language: -1

For a total of -11, on the Stressometer.

wife shows up, make both brainhalves work together, calls for unsuspected reinforcements. Reinforcements arrive speedily equipped with Holy Avenger + 12

So al in all I'm good for a +1 today

Cheers,

Peter

That's the spirit Peter!

Am glad I came into this late.

I have large numbers of 15mm SCW from both Martin and Peter and as far as I'm concerned, even holding them up close, the figures are chalk and cheese. I'm glad the upside of this sorry public mess is that Peter has been able to prove himself to be a top class sculptor in his own right. I hope this episode only encourages gamers to buy from him given the excellent figures they have been able to see for themselves in the photos on this thread.

Given that this thread began as a news item about Peter's new Carlists. I'll finish by saying that Peter's figures are historically accurate, being drawn from a wide range of sources and not just the odd Bueno illustration. They are dynamic in pose, consistent in scale and full of SCW character. I thoroughly recommend them.

Cheers
Mark

"A sudden thought though – since Peter's figures fit so well with Martin's perhaps he could be persuaded to do some modern British :)"

Great minds think alike

Actually, Peter has probably got more free publicity out of this than he could have possibly have expected, so while he may well feel a bit aggrieved, he has been vindicated and lots more people have seen his stuff, so not too bad a result

So is that a 'home goal' scored by Peter Pig?

I don't think so. All 15mm gamers win out of this thread. Both designers have had the profile of their miniatures raised. An issue that my have proved divisive to the 15mm SCW gaming community and wargames communty at large has been settled and avoided.

Cheers
Mark

I agree with Mark. These are not ranges in competition, but rather complementary ranges. I hope this incident results in benefits for both companies.

Allen

Allen may be able to confirm this since my SCW knowledge is close to non-existant. i.e. I am fairly sure it happened in spain!

Am I correct to say that the CTV figures could be used as an Italian Coastal unit in ww2 for the sicily and South of France campaigns? Would they have been equipped with those lmgs?

The light machine gun is the Fucile Mitragliatore Breda modello 30, used throughout the war, so that's OK. I just don't know how many of the Adrian-style helmets would still be in use. I would have thought that the modello 33 would have completely replaced it. Anyone know?

Allen