"Piracy Warning from FAA" Topic

Would it be useful to let us know where the pirated figures were bought from? The person who passed them on to you must have got them from someone - even if only from ebay.

With the recent AB pirating at shows I think almost all of the manufacturers here would like to be able to assure themselves that their stock isnt being similarly knocked off.

So - please let us know some more details if you have them.

Agreed. I understand that some suspect FAA products were bought at Triples (Sheffield) yesterday by a US gent (GG) who hopes to represent FAA in the UK. Are these all coming from the same source?

Mike B

Seems to me, someones ripping FAA off big style. We need to know where they were purchased so that they can be avoided.

one word of caution though. If they were obvious fakes before, they won't be so obvious from now on becaues they now have the exact information of the packaging, including the card stock, bag type and metal type as well. Not necessarily a good idea to tell them what it should be like if you are trying to discourage them.

Frankly, judging by the photo I don't think I can tell these two apart.

It seems to reason that if this person was pirating FAA they'll also do other makers. FAA needs to find out who the pirater was and either seek legal action or confront the pirater in another way.....at least I hope the powers-that-be at conventions are informed so the offender can be duly tossed. My observation on this announcement seems that the identifying points of the fake product are focusing more on the packaging than the actual figures being pirated. What distinquishes the fake figures from the real ones. Note the regular customer can't do metal analysis unless there is a distinct color or texture difference.
Toby Barrett Thoroughbred Figures and Models

[While not readily apparent, we use a gray 80# printers stock, a blended color, a 4 mil doubletrack white zipperlock bag, and all of the figures that we have ever shipped for resale have always been the same lead metal that Old Glory uses. (Not until October of this year did we start casting in Pewter.)]

OK, nw he's given away information that'll make it easier to pirate and the n pass off the figures are the real McCoy. Any other information to help the pirates?

Toby brings up a good point about letting folks at the conventions know. I have recently been given some insight into this by our past CONOPs personnel. While no expert it does assist us (Convention organizers) to identify suspect resale and other such issue. While I am not the official spokesperson for the organization I feel comfortable in saying that HMGS-East would do what it can to assist in matters like this at our conventions. Were the figures being sold at Fall In?

VR
James Mattes

A very serious problem for our industry that needs to be stamped out and the perpetrators prosecuted.

James, assistance from HMGS is both needed and welcome.

Lon Weiss

Brigade Games

Please keep us up to date on this issue and if it is resolved.

I have recently been contacted by buyers from the MIddle East and Asia. I have not responded because of fears concerning recasters. Particuarly in China. Many manufacturers in the fantasy side of our industry are having all of their products cast and packaged there and it would be very easy for the same people to rip off other products. Piracy in China is a substantial part of their economy.

I work professionally in Fine Arts and it is beyond belief how bad the problem is with China. There is no recourse and not a single western government is doing anything to put it to a stop. I would be surprised if it became a problem in our niche market but nothing is impossible.

Jeff Stuckey
Battlestandard Miniatures and Games

i agree that China is a huge issue. Culturally, the concept of "Intellectual Property" has no meaning there. I would object to the statement that "not a single western government is doing anything to put it to a stop." The US and others are expending a great deal of effort to get the Chinese goverment to enforce copyright laws, so far with little effect.

I wonder how many of you would complain if it were GW that were getting riped off? People will always look for the cheapest source for their minis and if the counterfiters can do it cheaper then why can't legit companies? OK you might say that cost of labor is a main issue, so whay not let say China cast and package your products, that way you could probably make it unfeasable for the pirates to do it as they could not undercut the legit product.

Dont get me wrong, i dont support pirates in any way, its just that all to often the industry wants us (Joe public) to buy their products above the pirated stuff and expect us to fork out more money for doing so, if the price of the pirated stuff is the same as the legit then that is a diferent matter.

Veggiemanuk,

your comments on cost show a distinct lack of thought. The pirates have one huge advantage in that they don't have top pay a designer. The cost for a single 28mm figure can be anything from £50 to £250.00 GBP depending on who is doing the designing. Then there is the advertising and promotion of the range, all of which is being done by the legitimate manufacturer and which the pirate is benefitting from.

Also the pirated figure (which does not come from an original master) will inevitably be of a poorere quality. It will be slightly smaller as a result of being cast from a production figure and in the case of the pirated stuff which is being talked about on here it is also of noticably lower quality. So it is not just the manufacturer who is being ripped off but the customer as well.

Anyone who knowingly buys pirated goods should be ashamed and they are certainly no friend of the hobby.

Much of this pirated material seems to be revolving around one particular company at the moment and I hope they are heading for a major fall.

Tricks

Recasting is illegal and morally wrong whether it is of GW products or the tiniest wargames manufacturer. There is no excuse nor wiggleroom on this issue.

Reminds me of the American Rifleman issue where they explain how to tell if your AR15 has been modified for full-auto fire. 'Make sure this pin hasn't been filed down 3/16 of an inch, make sure there's not an extra hole in this part, etc.'

James, here is a placewhere HMGS East can get some cred back. If you know that some dealers, or flea marketers are selling pirated or recast figures, chuck them out!

I hope that Baxter can locate and correct the problem. It is hard enough for a small casting company to make a profit without having to compete with pirates and then having to prosecute them.

If i remember correctly, a similar problem happened with the Gripping Beast range in the USA BEFORE BattleHonors started casting them.

Veggimanuk, pleanty of people have complained on TMP about GW being ripped off with a lot of pirate items being sold on ebay and other places. Sad to say that your attitude is disappointing. It encourages pirates.

Also as a person who has paid a lot of money to have a range scuplted, (as Tricks pointed out is a very expensive part of production) I will be very upset if I discover that my range is being pirated.

I don't know... our hobby seems to be suffering these days and this is one of the more lurid examples. Hopefully, individuals buying recast pirated figs will advise FAA where they bought it and from whom.

Another reason pirate figures will be cheaper from china is their standard of living .If someone wants to live in the uk or us they have have to have the money,which means charging a rate that allows them to live ,not matching the chinese equivelent that equates to peanuts .Saying an original must be comparable in price to a pirate figure is so rediculous is laughable.

If wargamers just stopped buying pirate figures there wouldn't be a market for them period.

Not to put everyone in the 'recaster' box but in my opinion its only a matter of time before we have a flood of pirated figures comming from the Far East.

These are relatively easy to make as far as the technology goes - a vulcaniser, casting machine and melting pot does it all.

Much of the cost of the figures is in design and recasters obviously dont have this. A ready source of very cheap labour and increasing access to Western markets.

What we need to do as manufacturers and consumers is decide how we address pirated figures and those that sell them. If customer 'x' sees Crusader figures from me at £1 each and pirated ones at 50p each will they buy the cheaper ones even though they know they are not ligit? I'd like to think they wouldnt but the number of post I've seen that accuse manufacturers of overpricing already makes me guess otherwise.

This is why I would like to see the FAA pirating addressed as fully as possible with as much information as we can get - AND MAKE IT PUBLIC. I know the AB pirating story a while ago just seemed to fade away - does anyone know if it was ever resolved?

I dont know about other manufacturers but I certainly couldnt compete with an endless flood of my figures being sold on ebay for only half price. I'd pack up and do something else with my time.

At the moment, Baxter's description of how their product is packaging has rendered the pirate's entire stock unsellable except via e-bay or to a few people at a time who didn't read his message. This is as opposed to the potential hundreds at upcoming conventions.

Now, if they want to recoup their investment, they're going to have to spend money that they hadn't planned on reprinting cards (not really cheap) and buying a higher-grade baggy and then spend a lot of time re-packaging.

A small hit, but it may be enough.

Wyatt

Sadly, they'll probably just sell them as "opened" on eBay.

Sucks.

Hello guys,

I'm the one that provided Baxter at FAA with a sample of the pirated figures in question. I bought them from a company in the UK in April or May of 2004 during the time that FAA had temporarily stopped manufacturing their figures.

I have a few more of the packs in question which I will be turning over to Baxter at Cold Wars in a couple weeks. When first looking at the pirated packs, it's hard to tell a difference because from a glance they look similar. However, upon comparing it to the real thing it is apparent due to the packaging.

I still have the receipt of purchase from this company, the receipt for when they ran my credit card through, and the receipt that has a description of the order including the FAA figures in question. So it is a very good paper trail to say the least which leads right back to this company in the UK.

********************************

The company the figures were purchased from was Stonewall Figures.

link

Crusaderminis...you've hit the nail on the head. The answer will reside in how "we" the consumers respond when faced with a choice bewtween "nearly" identical figures, one grossly underpriced the other.

unfortunately we are a consumer driven society, and for every altruistic "I would not knowingly buy a knock-off product" consumer there are what?...10-20-50-100 buyers who a) don't care, just want the most bang for their buck, or
b) don't/didn't know the product was a fake

as rational consumers we are drawn to "value" as a moth to flame. And I keep hearing wargamers are a penurious lot from my vendor friends all the time.

rick

[I know the AB pirating story a while ago just seemed to fade away - does anyone know if it was ever resolved?]

The last I heard was their announcement that the pirated AB figures had come from Stonewall - TMP link

Personally I don't believe the pirated minis are coming from China. It's probably some nob in his basement with a kiln and casting mold.

WOW Stonewall has a HUGE selection of FAA miniatures available on their website. Makes me a little sick to my stomach.

Do you British members have any traditions similar to the US propensity towards Vigilante Justice??

Okay maybe I'm missing something here. Is it the figures that are not quite right against the orginals or is it only the package they come in. This doesn't seem clear to me. If it is the figures what is wrong with them ie. taller, more flash, misshapened heads etc...

Has anyone contacted Stonewall and talked to them about this at this point?

I suspect the pirates read your post and now have good intelligence on how to counterfeit your packaging better...

Sounds like a trend or source of the UK piracy.

Wish this post had been discussed before Triples, the man in question was there and it would have been no hassle to photograph these bits at the show if he had them and send them to Baxter for confirmation.

I thought there was an "Official" photographer at Triples from the Sheffield wargaming guys taking pictures of all the stands? Might be worth asking them about it.

- - -

I find it hard to stomach/believe that a UK company is distributing large amounts of counterfeit figures so brazenly: but surely there is rather an urgent need for those invovled to get talking asap and squash any deliberately nefarious info/aspertions; or to take punitive action swifly and openly, whichever may be the case after due investigation.

- - -

"""Do you British members have any traditions similar to the US propensity towards Vigilante Justice??"""

Ax ex-"old bill" I think it's more appropriate to actually substantiate the source of the figures before lynching anybody. Stonewall could as easily been duped as their own customers may have been.

Wherever, and whenever, you buy goods indirectly from the original manufacturer you have to palce a trust in the hands of your supplier: We don't buy some of our accessories direct from the original manufacturer but through an agent - we ASSUME and take on TRUST that what we get is legitimate, original stock (it IS - but hopefully you will see my point: that if it weren't how would we know if we had never had any original stock at all?).

Web forums are a great place for passing around information, legitimate, erroneous, nefarious, malicious and, occaisionally, genuine and honest.

They aren't a good palce to build lynch mobs from though.

Thanks to all who have expressed thier concern on this matter. We have changed our header card design from what is in the picture this was made with a copy of the old header card. We also have started with a marking put on at the printer to make pricy more difficult. Of course we won't divulge what that is. We are going to try contacting trading standards again and hopefully we will get a bit warmer reception there this time.

Baxter & Nancy
FAA USA

Have FAA got in touch with Stonewall? That would be my first (OK - second realy - I'd go and see a solcitor) action when I heard of this.

Would Stonewall have a comment for this story? If I was wrongly accused of pirating figures I'd ceratinly not be quiet about it!

Personally I would like to see this carried throught to a conclusion. Find out who is manufacturing these figures. Maybe Stonewall have been duped - it is important to find out I think.

After that it is a matter for show organisers, suppliers, manufacturers and customers to ensure that this person doesnt get away with it. Let them find another hobby to ruin.....

THanks Bladestalker for your words of wisdom.
I does get to me sometimes that China is immeadiately blamed, but I have yet to see one case of Chinese recasting minis. Or anywhere else in Asia for that matter.

One thing about IP piracy in China- they don't sell the stuff abroad anyhow, so why would they rip off some minor company, and end up with products they would have no idea how to sell or access their markets? IP piracy is almost exclusively on things like DVDs and high end goods. Not that I'm exscusing it, but the likelihood of some muckers in the Chinese countryside suddenly deciding to recast FAA 20mm figures is infitesimal.

The comment:

" have recently been contacted by buyers from the MIddle East and Asia. I have not responded because of fears concerning recasters. Particuarly in China."

hmm

Guilty til proven innocent? Not that I, or the 2.5 bln plus other people living in these areas were planning to buy from that manufacturer, butI guess that is a clear warning to stay away

I usually wouldn't bother but that comment and a few others
are a bit ill informed IMHO

I think we would all certainly like to hear what Stonewall has to say in both the AB and the FAA cases.

I am with BrigadeGames on this. It is pretty black and white. I say prosecute them to the full extent of the law. This is a small hobby, honesty and integrity should be the norm and not the exception.

Good luck,

Brent

I'm with Leifeng...

look closer to home and the masses of unemployed and dissilusioned (east)germans, the "now free" ex-eastern bloc countries... land tied with better access to the materials and just as cheap labour and just as little EFFECTIVE laws to protect the originator; EU or not.

Not much need to throw stones half way around the world when we can just lob them next door... or perhaps even just down the street.

"[While not readily apparent, we use a gray 80# printers stock, a blended color, a 4 mil doubletrack white zipperlock bag, and all of the figures that we have ever shipped for resale have always been the same lead metal that Old Glory uses. (Not until October of this year did we start casting in Pewter.)]

OK, nw he's given away information that'll make it easier to pirate and the n pass off the figures are the real McCoy. Any other information to help the pirates? "

How else will the average player be able to distinguish the forgeries? I think it was wise to tell about ways to detect fakes!

Well...it seems that Stonewall may be having some problems in the near future. I hope FAA follows up on them.

Too bad Stonewall isn't from Nashville, Baxter remembers back when I was still on Metro. ;-)

link
if you click on the link above it is
a cautionary tale for pirates in China
15 years in jail - hmm

[I think we would all certainly like to hear what Stonewall has to say...]

I've dropped them an email. (I don't usually "work" on Sundays, but this seemed worth the exception.)

LeiFang wrote: "Guilty til proven innocent? Not that I, or the 2.5 bln plus other people living in these areas were planning to buy from that manufacturer, butI guess that is a clear warning to stay away

I usually wouldn't bother but that comment and a few others are a bit ill informed IMHO"

Sorry LeiFang but this is not just "My ill-informed opinion". Perhaps you are just not exposed to the problem but it is huge and it is recognized by every international organization and government. It is consistently at the top of the agenda in the International Courts, UN, WTO and G8.

China is Guilty of theft of IP in quantities never before seen. Perhaps my personal worry of selling my entire catalogue (as requested 3 times recently) to entities (not individuals) in Iran and China is just paranoia but I have mountains of evidence behind that paranoia. Honestly any manufacturer is or should worry every time they ship IP that can be replicated to certain parts of the world. It is so simple to rip off many products and miniatures are among them. True it may be more likely in the case of miniatures to happen in Europe but in those cases you generally find out quickly. In the case of Asia it could be years before a small company finds out its products are being sold via piracy.

The problem with software, books, music and artwork is so bad that estimates have at times stated as much as 80% of IP related products being sold in some parts of the world are pirated.

I was wrong to say none of the western countries are trying to do anything about it. They are but they are not going to the wall by doing things like shutting down the importing of goods originating in countries that are not themselves (China chief among them) doing anything or very little to stop the piracy.

Even Microsoft with all its money has not been able to get meaningful action. I think I remember it being said that certain of Microsoft's products installed on computers in eastern Asia were in excess of 90% pirated. This was a while back so I do not know what it is now.

So LeiFang, perhaps you are incensed that I dare to say there is a real problem with institutionalized piracy. I am sorry for that. I am sure you are a great guy. However the problem is real, large and highly documented.

As to Eastern Europe I really do not know. I am not familiar with issue there. It very well could be. My assertions are in not way reflective of a regional bias or any other bias. Just the fact that right now Asia and possibly some rogue middle eastern countries are a problem.

Jeff

LeiFang wrote:"One thing about IP piracy in China- they don't sell the stuff abroad anyhow, so why would they rip off some minor company, and end up with products they would have no idea how to sell or access their markets? IP piracy is almost exclusively on things like DVDs and high end goods. Not that I'm exscusing it, but the likelihood of some muckers in the Chinese countryside suddenly deciding to recast FAA 20mm figures is infitesimal."

I wanted to address this also since I think what I said was misunderstood. I do not know of any recasting examples in China. I only know that a number of major miniature manufacturers are now having their products produced in China and other regional facilities now. My concern is simply that this might (MIGHT) make piracy of miniatures a greater concern in these regions since there is an active culture of piracy at work.

Jeff

" wonder how many of you would complain if it were GW that were getting riped off?"

Alot...this has come up several times.

Hi Jeff

I don't disagree piracy is a problem here in Asia, but as you point out its Microsoft, DVDs (ie, Hollywood), Louis Vuitton (sp?),Nike, etc...not little packs of metal soldiers

The reason I probably come across as jumping up and down is that I won't be able to buy minis if some kind of 'anti recasting' blockade gets put in place- put yourself in my shoes
Seriously if anyone thinks their figs are be pirated in China drop me a line via Bill and I promise I could do something about it for you :)

Secondly, if you have a 'dodgy' enquiry let me know too and I can call them up/check them out for you (I do this for a living so actually its a plus to get leads)

I can understand language and culture being a huge barrier to international trade, but lets not fall out when actually the guilty culprits are probably somewhere a lot closer to home

Crikey, so Iranians are after your figures? Weird

"Reminds me of the American Rifleman issue where they explain how to tell if your AR15 has been modified for full-auto fire. 'Make sure this pin hasn't been filed down 3/16 of an inch, make sure there's not an extra hole in this part, etc.'"

Blackscribe, which issue is this? I have been an NRA Life Member since 1986 (American Rifleman is the NRA magazine) and I have NEVER seen an issue where instructions were given on how to convert a firearm to full-auto. I don't believe this statement.

I'm a Colt certified armorer (and a Bronze Medal holder...I won this with an AR-15 the I had worked on) and the conversion of a semi-auto receiver to a full-auto receiver is a conversion which takes tig welding since the full auto parts use a smaller pin than the holes already drilled for sem-auto parts. Aquisition of the full-auto parts requires a Federal Firearms License...of which I have one.

link

BTW- on Microsoft, they don't care so much on piracy of their operating system in Asia, as they know later, when these places can afford their prices they'll be quids in.
Hollywood too know that the main problem is in their studios which has people who are leaking these high quality copies, to the Internet.
IP violation is a complex topic, but is is mostly lawyers making more out of it than anyone else.

Reality check...

The people in China are not going to bother with something that has sales barely able to sustain one guy working in his garage.

No offense meant.

They don't rip off your buddy's garage band no one has ever heard of - they rip off Madonna and Sting. That doesn't mean your buddy's band ain't great - they just don't have the sales to warrant piratical attention when juicier targets are available.

If they were to pirate wargame figures, they'd probably start with Games Workshop.

Also: They are far more likely to pirate stuff for which a local market exists.

Pirating low volume, low profit margin, high shipping cost, export sales only, very limited niche market stuff seems very very dumb to me.

That is not to say to the problem does not exist. I just think that highly organized criminal pirate operations have, well, bigger fish to fry. In my opinion, the recasting "industry" is pretty much like the legit industry - one-man operations working in their garden shed.

Yes, the occasional strange "one of everything" order from strange places might be planning to recast them for himself or even the local market... but I find the prospect of them being recast to be re-exported back to the original market area a bit far-fetched...

Manufacturers, not long ago you were all moaning about metal prices rising. You have the figures, do the math:

Assuming they have free labor and even free casting equipment, how much could pirates really undercut your prices? They still have to pay for the metal, they have to ship the product to Europe/US, they have to have some sort of local marketing organization in place...

I think the cold reality is that pirates are likely to be local.

P.S. I guess this is another reason to invest in professional packaging, no matter how nostalgic the classic ziplock bag might be.

Just a note: Stonewall lists the complete FAA line on their website as they were the FAA representative in Europe. I *hope* Stonewall is innocent, partly because the implications of a representative pirating their suppliers is very scary, partly because I, as a customer, have only had good dealings with Stonewall.

Hmmm, I thought I heard a rumor a while back that questioned the authenticity of the Testudo line they carried also.