"Mongoose: OOP Sale" Topic

Does this announcement mean Mongoose will be releasing more new miniatures for games it won't support and will let die or just more new games that it won't support and will let die?

Not much of a sale in terms of prices, but nice to see they are still available. The exo-suits went for $40 USD a box of 4 new, and at 6.99 pounds each, nearly 50% more than when sold new.

I think it's more of a case of selling old miniatures for games it won't support and will let die.

Which is odd because you'd think they could make a fair bit of coin on the Exo suits on Ebay…or demand THAT dead even for those?

The SST license is GONE, and the rumor is that it went before it was intended to, explaining why that game died so quickly and so thoroughly.

The B5 license is also gone, as the studio apparently wants far more money for it now than it returns in sales.

Vanilla BFE was a mistake, and Mongoose knows it.

World At War is static as far as print is concerned and is still available in PDF, and Mongoose has no need to do WWII miniatures in any scale. That era is saturated.

They still have 2000AD/Judge Dredd and Runequest. Those minis lines went dormant because Mongoose realized they were in over their heads with minis. The dormancy appears to be over, but there's still this warehouse of stuff, see…

Looking at ebay, there are a couple of $40 USD lots of both suit types up, currently with no bids. Not sure if that indicates anything other than people tending to bid at the last minute.

6.99 pounds is about $11 USD by the current exchange rates. If it weren't for the shipping, they'd be pretty close to original retail. Not a sale, but not 50% markup either.

Ya, but for the pre-painted stuff it is not a bad deal. The miniatures can always be used for a different set of rules. Buy a bunch and the shipping works out reasonable.

They spent the last two months selling the prepaints (and the 1st ed Runequest books) through ebay under the seller ID oop_games, all starting (and sometimes closing) at 99 cents.

I looked at the exo suits but call me a bluff old traditionalist…

Sales are supposed to be at REDUCED prices…

James

"Does this announcement mean Mongoose will be releasing more new miniatures for games it won't support and will let die or just more new games that it won't support and will let die?"

More new games and miniatures that it won't support, spend years coming up with several revised reasons why afterwards (deleting all relevant threads from their forums so you can't call them on what they said before) and then try it all again hoping people have forgotten.

well, they priced me out of their 'sale'.

Too bad too, since the only SST stuff i never got a hold of was the exosuits.

This thread is a pint of bitter, innit?

Shame…the Grizzly is one of my favorite examples of power armor ever…great stuff.

In this case I think the name Mongoose may in name only, and it is actually just a smelly old Norway rat pretending to be a mongoose…the cobra of the gaming industry put the old rat to the test and he failed soundly…several times.

Shame.

I hope they have some of the B5 28mm humanoids on sale again, need some Vorlons.

Zzzzzzzzzzz! What did Mongoose say something?

The "Cobra of the gaming industry"? Mongoose has done a pretty good job at making money from an inbred, fickle, and cheap market segment (as exhibited by the people who want exosuits, but don't want to pay for them).

Historical miniatures are just a niche within a niche – with only a couple of companies actually making any real money from it. Mongoose has tried for a wider market – and has had to try to survive the recession the same as other businesses. The stupidity of the license holders has been their biggest problem, but they seem to have a good niche doing miniature/roleplaying crossovers.

"(as exhibited by the people who want exosuits, but don't want to pay for them)."

My reading is more like they don't want to pay MSRP (and below the regular going rate on the secondary market for awhile now) because it says Sale in the news item. It's funny how semantics and expectations can blind people.

I also find it funny how people get so upset about "dead" and "unsupported" games and then turn right around and complain about games that update too much.

I have seen the enemy and he is us. :D

If you don't like the prices, then buy them somewhere else cheaper.

Bede19025 & Ceasar, you 2 guys are terrible and there is definitely no call for your comments (I'm appalled)!!

The reason why this company is letting everyone know that 2011 is going to be their big year for returning to minis manufacturing is so they can, well….a..heh…so they can…MMMmmmmm! So they can announce that they will be releasing more new miniatures for games it won't support and will let die.

These guys are the scourge of the gaming industry. They should be outlawed from any type of manufacturing. If they came out with the most impressive game ever with the best minis ever conceived and produced, they would not get 1 penny from me. I avoid them like plague itself, accept to spit in their general direction. I hope they have a warehouse the size of Texas full of minis they can't sell (and that no one in their right minds would buy).

Also, it was great to see their booth completely empty for hours on end at GenCon this year.

A…..yeah, I'm a little bitter from past experience with these guys, in case you were wondering.

They had a booth? Must've missed that…

Sure did! Ironically, they had some Battlefield Evolution minis there for sale, cheap. However, there was a discount retailer there that had the same stuff even cheaper. So, I don't think they sold very much of it.

Also, to add to the comment about forum strings disappearing from their website, that is absolutely true. I have personal experience with that.

Watch, 2011 will come and go and there won't be a peep out of these guys on the minis side of the hobby.

"(as exhibited by the people who want exosuits, but don't want to pay for them)"

Hope that was not for me…I have over 150 SST miniatures.

I didn't mention price…they have dropped the ball, regardless of why or excuses of other people involved…but that is just an opinion.

>>> The exo-suits went for $40 USD USD a box of 4 new, and at 6.99 pounds each, nearly 50% more than when sold new.

Grizzly's were three to a box, and we are doing them for $9.99 USD now.

>>>The SST license is GONE, and the rumor is that it went before it was intended to, explaining why that game died so quickly and so thoroughly.

A dispute between Sony and the Heinlein Estate forced all development to cease. It was resolved, nearly two years later, by which time all momentum for the game had gone. A shame.

>>>The B5 license is also gone, as the studio apparently wants far more money for it now than it returns in sales.

True. After, it should be pointed out, we released around 40 books and about 200 miniatures. Not exactly unsupported.

>>>Vanilla BFE was a mistake, and Mongoose knows it.

Yes. Also true. Should probably have been SST first time round.

>>> deleting all relevant threads from their forums so you can't call them on what they said before

The only reason we have ever deleted threads is because certain people could not control themselves and were extremely rude.

>>> I hope they have some of the B5 28mm humanoids on sale again, need some Vorlons.

Sorry, long gone.

>>> These guys are the scourge of the gaming industry.

Oh, grow up. What, exactly, have we ever done to you?

>>> Also, it was great to see their booth completely empty for hours on end at GenCon this year.

And that is a plain lie. I was there… I would also, given your previous comments, doubt whether you were hanging around our booth watching to see what traffic we had.

>>> Ironically, they had some Battlefield Evolution minis there for sale, cheap. However, there was a discount retailer there that had the same stuff even cheaper. So, I don't think they sold very much of it.

And this is how rumours start. We sold out of our BF Evo sets on the Friday, had a restock on the Saturday, and had sold out by Sunday morning again.

Yeah, no one ever came past our booth, and we had absolutely nothing to do that weekend.

>>> they have dropped the ball

We have never actually denied that (well, except for B5 – that was a good, strong game, but licence fees from Warner Brothers are not negotiable, and they were just too high to sustain beyond a 6 year term). What we have done is take a good, long look at how miniatures were approached in the past and, yes, listened to your comments.

We've made changes. We are not asking for any favours, only that you give our new games a critical but fair eye next year. We have made some mistakes with past ranges – but we have also done some good stuff. A decision was made to do less of the former and more of the latter this time round…

Good luck with the new stuff. I was very sad to see B5 and SST go. I felt they were both good lines. I Dont understand some of the negative stuff being said here. I would have liked to have seen somthing on the web site to say why the lines has gone as I had only just started to buy in to them as they vanished but hay thats life and could be I jsut missed the news.

Glad to here mongooes is back producing figures.
All the best
Tony

>>> I would have liked to have seen somthing on the web site to say why the lines has gone as I had only just started to buy in to them as they vanished but hay thats life and could be I jsut missed the news.

We made posts on our forums with regards to the ending of B5, but we were somewhat limited by what we could and could not say on SST, as there was a lawsuit going on at the time (and we were actually named in it – makes for a lovely Monday morning when you receive a summons to a court in LA!). Doesn't matter what we say now, as it has all been resolved and we no longer have a connection to Sony.

>>> Glad to here mongooes is back producing figures.

Cheers!

Sorry to say it Matt, but I think Mongoose has a long, steep hill to climb with this crowd. I'll happily agree that Mongoose ran into some tough luck with the B5 and SST issues, but the barrel has been poisoned once, and these guys don't want to drink from it again. Tough audience!

On the positive side – more power to you personally for staggering through the storm of abuse to provide your side of the argument with a pretty rational attitude.

>>>Sorry to say it Matt, but I think Mongoose has a long, steep hill to climb with this crowd.

I agree completely – this is exactly why we have kept a very low key profile in the run up to our releases. No bold claims, we'll let the minis and the games do the talking, and people can make their own minds up.

We've got Judge Dredd ticking away with a free rulebook and low-priced models. Not much that can be said about that. In January/February, we'll be bringing a Call to Arms back, but that is mainly for the Call to Arms fans who have been wanting a replacement since B5 went away.

In March, it accelerates somewhat but hopefully by then people will have seen that, up to that point at least, we have done everything we have said we will do. As i said, they can make their own minds up then.

>>>On the positive side – more power to you personally for staggering through the storm of abuse to provide your side of the argument with a pretty rational attitude.

Ah, well, I am a veteran of RGMW. Quite used to it :)

There's the question, Martin, of how many times you're prepared to drink from the poisoned well. Mongoose was unlucky with the SST licence, but the line had it's share of problems (missing pieces, repeated attempts to produce a decent set of Skinny models). First edition BFE was a poor show all round.

OTOH I actually think that the B5 line had a good run, and they gave folks plenty of warning of the licence's demise. The second edition BFE games were great. Mongoose can clearly learn from their mistakes when they put their minds to it.

Mongoose is a great ideas company, and they're always prepared to try new things. It's just that the execution of those ideas is sometimes wanting, and not in a consistent way. That makes purchasing expensive new gamebooks tough. I love RQ2, for example, but the Traveller line has had it's glitches, inconsistencies and mistakes.

I've ordered some of the BFE minis in the sale, as I think they're fine for the tabletop and a bargain at that price. But I wouldn't have been bidding on your Ebay auctions on Saturday, Matt, if I'd known the price was going to be lower on Tuesday – bit of a pain to find I could have saved £20.00 GBP by waiting three days.

B>>>ut I wouldn't have been bidding on your Ebay auctions on Saturday, Matt, if I'd known the price was going to be lower on Tuesday – bit of a pain to find I could have saved £20.00 GBP GBP by waiting three days.

It was those auctions that convinced us that people still very much wanted these things, and it is swings and roundabouts. Some things are cheaper, some things a little more, but it evens out, especially if you are overseas (once you factor in postage, etc).

Still, not going to see you out of pocket – drop me a line at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com, and we'll pop in some extra goodies to make up for it.

>>>repeated attempts to produce a decent set of Skinny models)

The Skinnies suffered from the many-hands-at-the-helm syndrome (something we spotted back then, and have since never tried to duplicate), and had no clear vision. The MI and Bugs were both well -rounded out, but I was personally never happy with the Skinnies. Some ups (the Tyrant, the General and his Guard), but we never quite cracked the Raiders.

>>> First edition BFE was a poor show all round.

It had its up points as well though. My favourite models were the British Warrior and the Chinese WZ-551. They are both great models and, dare I say, better painted than I could manage.

The biggest disappointment I ever had from Mongoose was the final CTA book. It was crushing…because I knew by that time the license was going to disappear and the book showed so much promise about what could have been!

Damn shame.

I give Mongoose full credit. They've had a run of some bad luck, and have indeed made some mistakes. I was always impressed by their customer service that would correct problems that were within their ability to make right. I had some shipping problems once, and a couple of quite badly made models, and each time, without any fuss, the problems were fixed.

We still play their Victory at Sea (realistic? Nah…but great fun!) and make noises about dusting off our B5 fleets.

My hunch is that they will learn from their mistakes, and since they are starting with a clean slate, I'm looking forward to seeing what Mongoose will do.

What you guys call "a run of bad luck" I call poor business decisions. (Tanuki had it right, a good "idea" company that had poor executing skills.) That's just the truth….and unfortunately, it's the customers that are made to suffer for it. The customers don't know all the background at the time they invest in a game. Then, we learn after months of rumors and a dreaded post on your website that you're dumping it for greener pastures. We invest our hard earned $$ to see the game disappear after a year. To me, this screams of poor planning on the part of the company. And of course, we live in a world of let the buyer beware. If this happened once, I'd think, give the guys a chance. When you see this happen 2 or 3 times, it makes me think: plague, poison, steer clear of these idiots. Your track record speaks for itself.

Fortunately, due to the internet and forums such as these, the customers can now make their voices heard.

>>> These guys are the scourge of the gaming industry.

>>> Oh, grow up. What, exactly, have we ever done to you?

You asked, so let me tell ya'! What you did, was release a game (Gropos) and after about a year, you ditched it and ran. Now you can make all the excuses you want about licensing and so forth. However, on my end of the relationship, I invested about $1,000 USD (which doesn't include the cost of personal hours painting etc) into a game that was developed by an experienced company that gave no real thought to what they were doing or to learning from their prior experiences in the industry. So, you "willy nilly" came out with a product that wasn't well thought out from a business perspective, so you had to bail from it. But wait, there's more!! You then did the same thing with SST, BFE, Turning Point…..OMG the list goes on, and on, and on!!

And then, before you disappear from the minis side of the industry, you post on your website how great of a minis company you are. What an absolute CROCK (with a capital S)!!!

Have we seen other poor performances from companies in the gaming industry? Sure we have. But let me bottom line it for you…..I didn't invest in those games. I invested in yours. You've earned my wrath….and from the looks of the other posts above, I'm not the only one that shares the opinion.

And by the way, your booth at GenCon was EMPTY.

Piggybacking on Tony S's comments: My hunch is that they won't learn from their mistakes…..they'll just keep making more of them at our expense. No, I'm not looking forward to anything they are doing or plan on doing.

I've been a member of TMP for awhile. I think the last time I posted was about 2 years ago. I access the site daily and read all there is to read but, never feel the need to share my opinions. However, when I saw this thread, I had to post on it. Now, back to hibernation.

If anything about my comments here are friendly, it's the following: Get a day job and stay out of the hobby industry. If you aren't getting it from the above posts, you've lost your fan base. Anything invested into more minis games at this point is $$ out the window. You won't sell your products because of your history in the industry.

Oh and about this:

>>> deleting all relevant threads from their forums so you can't call them on what they said before

>>> The only reason we have ever deleted threads is because certain people could not control themselves and were extremely rude.

Look at the history of what you were doing, think about people investing (time, money, people, creativity)in your products and then think about it. The only reason you deleted threads was because it wasn't "good press" for you or your company and it was all true.

>>>What you did, was release a game (Gropos) and after about a year, you ditched it and ran

Umm. We never released Gropos. That was a completely different company, in a different country at that.

>>>Turning Point

We never did Turning Point.

Seriously, you are thinking of a different company.

>>>your booth at GenCon was EMPTY

When you walked past? Entirely possible. But you do us a dis-service to suggest that was the norm. I have scars to prove it…

>>>You won't sell your products because of your history in the industry.

The current sale seem very popular…

Seriously, I am not trying to convince you of anything (well, aside from certain games you are very angry about that we did not publish and have had nothing to do with). I am just here telling people what is available. They'll buy into the games or not, as they choose. At the end of the day, that is what it is all about.

>>>The only reason you deleted threads was because it wasn't "good press" for you or your company and it was all true.

I'll say it again – the only reason we have ever deleted threads was that they became very rude and offensive. You are welcome to express a dissatisfied opinion on our forums. We actually read them and take note. But once you start getting personal (against staff or other forum readers), you're gone. It is simple, and it is fair. It all comes down to how you express yourself.

Hi Matt,

Thanks for your kind offer, but I don't expect to get free stuff as a result of a whine on the internet. Just a suggestion – a couple of days' notice would have been sufficient to let people know what was happening. Let's be honest, I would have spent the money on RQ stuff anyway!

I do appreciate the offer though – classy!

Cheers,

Derek

>>>What you guys call "a run of bad luck" I call poor business decisions.

I'll tackle this one too, if I may.

I won't apologise for anything we did with Babylon 5 – that was a good, solid line. About 40 books, 200-odd miniatures, 13 fleets, regular (free) support in S&P, tournaments and campaign days. We did a Good Job with that one and though it was a shame the licence could not be sustained, that is the nature of the beast with licensed properties – the licence ends. Even WotC have backed away from Star Wars, seemingly for much the same reason we did with B5. However, during the term, we supported the hell out of this game, and those still interested in the rules rather than the setting, will be able to return in a few months.

SST was a shame all round. On the one hand, bugs and MI were very well supported in their first 18 months or so, with just about every permutation made available. The biggest thing I regret is not getting round to the vehicles for the MI. Most of the sculpts were reasonable at the very least (the limited edition standard bearer was minging, I apologise for that one), and some were fantastic – we have an Overseer Bug sitting in a cabinet in the office and, maybe it is Adrian's painting, but it is a lovely model.

The Skinnies… well, I would just paint those with a big Sorry on my part. They were designed by committee, and were just wrong on several levels. Even the nice looking ones suffered from an incohesive background. And the slaves could fairly be described as a crime against the hobby. Maybe against humanity. I sincerely apologise for those ones. In fact, if you have a box set of Skinnie Slaves, drop me a line at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com. If you send them back to us, I'll send you something of greater value when the new ranges come out.

That said, the biggest issue for SST was the question of how to expand it. Aside from the vehicles, bugs and MI were just about done. The only thing left for them were vehicles, yes, and special units/new species. The only way the game could really expand was to bring new alien races in (see story on court actions). However, if you wanted to play bugs vs. MI, which would always have been the core of the game, we released everything you ever needed (the MI even came in four different flavours), and the rules still work as well as they did back then. Few people ever complained about the rules themselves.

BF Evo – now that was a . And it all rested on just one decision that I made just before release. For that, I have to hold my hand up and say 'that was my fault.' Deepest apologies to all. It was a good game, and we started to get the models more towards where we wanted them nearer the end, but the first wave of releases did for it. That one decision was the biggest mistake I have made for the company. I could make all sorts of excuses but, at the end of the day, it happened on my watch.

Victory at Sea is one people oft forget, and that still ticks over like clockwork, month in, month out. It may not be what the simulationists want but, as one poster here has said, it is a lot of fun. It is a Good Game.

BTW, if anyone can tell me why we have started seeing a lot of mail orders for this game from France, I would be very interested to hear it. Ticks over nuicely everywhere, but we have seen a real surge from across the channel in the past year.

Gangs of Mega-City One ran its course on a commercial level. The focus on gangs not judges was a mistake (that came from a focus of games design rather than a consideration of what the property was) but Judge Dredd is just not popular enough to sustain a long running miniatures game. We have changed it now so the rules are free and people can use their older models or the newer ones as they see fit and now, like VaS, it ticks over. This is the right format for it.

And, finally, there is Mighty Armies, our very first game. It had its fans, and we had plenty of requests to expand it (I always wanted to do an Ancients version) but despite being profitable it was never a commercial blockbuster, and we could never spare the time to go back to it. In the end, we let it go to our good friends at Rebel Minis who elected to pick up the banner.

And that is just about the complete history of Mongoose miniatures in the past. Of the big games, I wish SST could have gone differently, I publically apologise for the decisions made on BF Evo, and I would cite B5 as being a damned good game.

We've taken a long look at what we have done in the past, what went right and what went wrong – and we have changed what we do (and how we do it) accordingly.

If you don't want to play our games, that is cool. They are not for everyone, and we are not going to ram them down your throat. All we will do here is post the occasional news item and advert (which, incidentally, we do pay for). Surely there is enough room here for all of us, eh?

Why do so many people knock BEvo? Although the initial release was lacking a little, the rest of the range was very good. It had quite a following at my club and to this day still gets played.
It was a shame that the range was pulled before I got my hands on the Revered Leader, Cobra gunship etc but if it didn't sell then it is understandable.
I wish Mongoose good luck with their future releases.

I'd honestly be more inclined to give you a chance if it weren't just your tone that changed. You come off reasonable and mature, now, which wasn't always our collective experience with you. Good for that.
The fact is, you are still telling half-truths or downright lies in order to rewrite your history with us, the people that invested money, time, energy into your company and were repeatedly dumped on by you. You treated us poorly and it's an insult to see you admit to harmless mistakes and deny the real damage you did to your reputation in an attempt to appeal to our better selves to give you a second, third, fourth chance (for some!).
As it stands, you've lost me as a customer forever. My money will go to people who give me good value for it and treat me as more than just a cash machine.

I really enjoy your rules. VaS, CTA, and Judge Dread gets regular time on my table. I never bought your B5 miniatures because I have a large selection of the original Fleet Scale miniatures. But the rules were a great improvement on what was available previously.
I will continue to support your rules simply because you produce good, fun, simple rules that does not take years to learn or master. Miniatures, on the other hand, I will always buy what I like and have no problems using other manufactures if I like their product.

I'm viewing this as the opportunity to acquire the Exo-suits I never picked up. So its a GOOD THING for me. I still play SST, (ran a game at a convention back in June!).

The SST rules still work well – especially for MI and Bugs – and you can kit bash enough vehicles to give the MI the 'ommpf!' that the Fleet assets provide (those Terminator gunships make great drop boats!)

Just ordered a few Exo's to round out the collection.

So thanks for brightening my day!

I knew you'd get some of those Exo's!

;-D

As a side point GroPos was an AOG product – as was Turning Point which was a replacement after they lost the B5 license. What Mongoose's part in this was a series of articles in S&P, (which I still have), promoting their "soon to be released" version of GroPos showing photos of battles between the announced re-issued miniatures, (release dates included). So Mongoose can't be blamed for the release of GroPos – they choked on the attempt.

Maybe the younger crowd these days needs to be spoon fed "complete" game systems that are supported with new releases on a regular basis to maintain their interest, but fortunately my roots go deeper than that. I don't give a hoot if a game is "supported" or not. I just take it for what it is and, for SST, I think it's a decent game that I'll continue to play for a long time. Had it not been for Mongoose "bailing" on it, I would have never played it. The original price point was just more than I cared to pay, but when others gave up of this "dead" game and started flooding the market with SST stuff, prices plummeted, and I said "heck yeah!". So I don't begrudge Mongoose for some questionable decisions. It's worked out for me. I'm glad to see the exo-suits available too. Not sure if I'll be adding to what I already have but I might. The price, even with shipping, is better than you'll find on ebay without shipping.

I knew you'd get some of those Exo's!

Guilty as charged!

Hail Ceasar!! He's right. You are telling half truths and full blown lies. (He's also correct that your past demeanor towards your customers has been, shall we say, poor.)

I and most of the readers here didn't just fall off the turnip truck yesterday. We've been around the hobby, in my case, for decades. Whether you are in the states or in Europe, whether you are calling yourself Mongoose or AOG, we all know who you are. And saying now that you never deleted posts on your forums that were negative is fine too. Our memories of you, your company, and your poor handling of your business are intact.

By the way, you owe me $1000!

To respond to Forager's comments: it has nothing to do with age, sustained interest, or roots. It's just this simple:

It has to do with the fact that a company releases a product. The promise is that to fulfill their customers needs, they are going to do the background work to make a game worth playing and that they put enough thought into it so that there is longevity to it. They go as far as to state this to their customers. In fact, they stake their corporate reputation on it. They give you 2 ounces of metal in a blister and charge you $25 USD for it. They print a set of rules and charge you $35 USD for it and for each faction book. The understanding is that you, the customer, are going to get some value for your money that is not going to go a way, bringing value to your personal and monetary investment. These guys suck at this. They suck at it over and over again.

It is a true investment….because, if they had released a game under the premise that "we're going to try this for a year to see where it goes and then let you know if we're going to continue with it", no one would buy their products. Customers want longevity for their investment.

Thankfully, this forum exists for us to express our dissatisfaction. And frankly, I want to warn off others who don't know this company so they don't fall into the same trap.

Quite honestly it sounds like your problem is your own unrealistic expectations and not Mongoose. You buy books and miniatures, not promises and certainly not guarantees.

Try running a business sometime and get a little perspective.

>>>whether you are calling yourself Mongoose or AOG,

Whoa, hold it right there. Mongoose has nothing to do with AoG, has never had any sort of ownership in AoG, and neither have I.

You are talkling about two completely different companies. When AoG disappeared, we took the _licence_ for B5 from Warner Brothers and, indeed, until then I had barely even heard of AoG.

You, Sir, are very, very wrong.

>>>And saying now that you never deleted posts on your forums that were negative is fine too

I didn't say that. I said the criteria for deletion was that they were offensive.

>>>By the way, you owe me $1000!

Quite happy to discuss that. Were the products you bought in some way defective?

Wolfgang….you're wrong. Gaming companies go out of their way to sell the longevity of their products. It's a major selling point of the industry. If you don't understand that, you're the guy that needs some perspective.

Matt…..the products weren't defective…just your company.

I want to warn off others who don't know this company so they don't fall into the same trap.

As a gamer who was around to watch companies and games come and go like mayflies back in the 70s and 80s, I know better than to blame Mongoose for the death of the licensed products you seem so attached to.

Gaming companies go out of their way to sell the longevity of their products. It's a major selling point of the industry.

Unless you happen to be the juggernauts of the industry, both of whom are on fast product and/or customer churn cycles. About half of the next tier down do the same thing. They all engender long-term loyalty DESPITE abusing their customer base.

A big chunk of the smaller companies are one-shot wonders, vanity projects, or casual part-timers.

just your company

I have my frustrations with Mongoose, to be sure, but you, sir, are practicing a completely different category of distaste.

Farstar:

You are correct on your last 2 points:

1) You make my point with your 2nd statement: these guys went from being 1 of the biggest to a smaller company exactly because of their antics.

2)I "AM" practicing a completely different category of distaste than you. I'm saying what should be said as opposed to trying to be "civil" or "politically correct". Their past practices deserves such honesty.

On your 1st point: you misunderstand – please read my prior posts. I'm not blaming them for licensing issues. What I said was that I am not accepting of licensing issues as an excuse for how they operate. They are a poor excuse for a gaming company and it's precisely companies like this that tarnish the industry and the hobby. Yes, you are correct, there are a lot of gaming companies that exploit their customers. They do not get my money. However, these guys did. So, like I said before, they've earned my wrath.

Whoa, hold it right there. Mongoose has nothing to do with AoG, has never had any sort of ownership in AoG, and neither have I.

You are talkling about two completely different companies. When AoG disappeared, we took the _licence_ for B5 from Warner Brothers and, indeed, until then I had barely even heard of AoG.

You, Sir, are very, very wrong.

Umm… Did you not work with Robert Glass, one of the owners of Agents of Gaming?! Who moved to Mongoose Publishing to continue his work with B5Wars/Call to Arms? And in fact was producing Babylon 5 miniatures for Mongoose Publishing

Yes, they are two different companies, but they have a man in common. Which I can see many people having trouble making that distinction.