"Public Statement from Wai Kee Hui Regarding Wargames Factory" Topic

Howard is speaking of the debt Wai Kee owes to Triangle, not any that Tony and company owe. He is indicating that DG will pay WF's bad debt to Triangle since the charity needs the money, and Wai Kee isn't stepping up, nor is George Sivy

It is interesting that some of the early posters on this thread seemed to equate "professionally written" with "true". I have held several academic administrative posts, and the person I know who writes the most polished and professional-sounding missives on matters of department and college policy is also the biggest liar I know.

Sigh. Yawn.

Were all the tooling problems – shallow detail, fudged molds (notice the half-arm on the Persian sprue?), etc. along with all the shipping delays a part of a deliberate plan to sink the company in order to take it over?

--------------------------------------------------------------

i'm a simple soul (i deal with allegations of these kind for a living) so it seems to me to boil down to – did the original owners owe the Chinese plastics co.$250k and thats why they signed over the shareholding – or as per Mr Reidy did he in fact pay what he owed (he says to holding co.s?) and therefore the reason for signing over the shareholding was to get more capital. Its not as if the co. went bust due to sabotage and was bought up by Mr Hui – Mr Reidy signed over his shareholding – corporate history is replete with people who've done that for various reasons and then found that they are then pushed out. either one person is lying or the other is as the books of WGF should clearly show what payments were made, crucially when and to who.

First of all, I can't address the major financial issues. Wargames Factory under Tony Reidy's leadership. The company was always undercapitalized, and money was tight

Howard is speaking of the debt Wai Kee owes to Triangle, not any that Tony and company owe. He is indicating that DG will pay WF's bad debt to Triangle since the charity needs the money, and Wai Kee isn't stepping up, nor is George Sivy

--------------------------------------------------------------
Its still not very clear – Mr Whitehouse clearly says he can't comment on any major financial issues (ie did the co owe $£250k). Mr Hui says that they found out that WGF had not paid Triangle. Then Mr Whitehouse says that the new co. they are forming will pay the bad debt owed to said Triangle – which one? – the one Mr Hui says goes back to the days of Mr Reidy, the one Mr Whitehouse implies stems only from the takeover (as on the basis of what he writes they would not have kept Triangle unpaid is how I understand him), or is one that encompases both regimes – ie they didn't pay Triangle as money was tight and the new owners have not paid them either?

Geez,
I wonder what Lonnie wrote. I wonder if this is all a great WF smoke screen. First any press is better that no press. Second, Lonnie drops a "Grenade" of a post that just about brings about flaming torches and pitch forks. And no "Oops, My bad" on this forum or the company web site. Third, Mr Hui write "the truth" in a very well written letter about how the present WF staff were taken advantage of by the evil guys who started it.

Maybe I have watched too many X-Files. Or maybe this whole thing stinks.

can expect to sell 21,000 to 62,000 boxes to make $250,000 profit.

This is the real head scratcher for me. Maybe, in twenty years or so just maybe, they will sell 30,000+/- boxes in this hobby but otherwise, that $250,000 number seems immense.

It all sounds very "professional" but I have one simple question – when I am going to receive my order? Unless and until you start answering your customers' emails I shall not believe that anything has changed for the better.

Yours in severe disgruntlement

Chris Rance

Funny you should mention that GNREP8, as if you look on WF's forums, the new Administrator admits they lost a lot of financial data – no data, no forensic accounting. Odd when you think about it, as Mr Sivy was in charge since Aug 2010, and the data issue came up in Dec 2010 and Jan 2011, so claims by Mr Wai can't be substantiated.

I was also informed that a good friend, and former WF customer notified the US State Dept's Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization, who look into such things when a non-resident Foreigner owns a US company. Since Mr Sivy would have been responsible for making sure that all the T's were crossed and I's dotted on the State Dept paperwork, I sure hope he did it correctly. My only regret is that my friend thought of it first, that and contacting the MA State ATTY General's Office, the BBB, the US SBA, and the US Justice Dept. I haven't spoken to him since early Feb, so I have no idea what has, or is, happening, but I can't imagine every one of those agencies dropped the ball. On of these days i will email him and see what, if anything, he knows. As for me, I couldn't care any less now what happens to WF as a company. I just wish they would stop trying to use my friends as the scapegoats for their continuing self-made problems, and that they would pay the back wages and debt owed to Triangle. After that, they can slip away into obscurity.

However, as only a friend to Tony & Howard, I am not "in the know" for all things (yes I do talk to them and know more than most, but others know far more than I). What I do know is Defiance Games will have some wonderful products, made here in the US (no slow ships from China), and WF is in no way a competitor of DG.

One last thing – it is Mr Wai, not Mr Hui. the Chinese, like the Japanese, have surname first =)

Some good points above – how can any toy soldier company rack up $250K to one supplier – either than figure is wrong (Mr Reidy doesn't I note deny the figure but says that a "huge amount of money (was) sent to Wai Kee's various holding companies for plastic work")or they had a very strange cash flow/business plan that would have only brought a profit in the very long term – as with all thse things it gets curiouser and curioser as each statement comes ion from either side as if money was tight where did they get the funds to send out a huge amount to China?

Funny you should mention that GNREP8, as if you look on WF's forums, the new Administrator admits they lost a lot of financial data – no data, no forensic accounting. Odd when you think about it, as Mr Sivy was in charge since Aug 2010, and the data issue came up in Dec 2010 and Jan 2011, so claims by Mr Wai can't be substantiated.
------------------------------------------------------------------

Doing this kind of thing every day of the week (well 5 days a week) the dog ate my homework defence does not work out for either side. You can lose all your computer/manual accounts but the banks hold details of what has been paid (presuming that the money wasn't sent in cash to China!) so its very simple for it to be confirmed what was paid or not – reconstruction of records is what forensic accountants do. Triangle's records will also show whether they were paid or not when the original owners were in charge. hopefully as you say some State agency can look at this as whilst I appreciate that Mr Reidy can't now obtain bank statements to prove he made the payments and perhaps Mr Wai (point taken – my wife's Chinese but now has a British surname so forgot that) won't release them, a state body has got the power I would think to insist that the bank records are re-printed and can then check how matters were dealt with

This makes Murder She Wrote look like fun.

I like the Marlburians despite their googly eyes and hope that WGF manages to produce some more decent sets.

If they do – I'll buy. If they don't I'll pass.

Same goes for Defiance Games.

Some years ago I was called in to re-imagine the rules for a collectible figure game (which must remain namless due to contractual obligations) that had racked up over $40,000 in bills just in early development. There was nothing to show at that point other than a few sculpts, a single prototype cast and one of the worst set of rules I have ever encountered – total train wreck. Not a single sellable bit of product was produced with that initial outlay. I don't believe any molds were made either, other than for the one prototype.

While I certainly cannot comment on the accuracy of anything in this ongoing saga, getting the bill to over $250K is not as fantastic as one might think.

I have thus far refrained from comment on this situation, aside from a single "witticism" posted on the spur of the moment, and with the aid of some serious opiates, on another thread.

However, I finally feel the need to throw in my $.02 USD here.

I don't know the particulars of the Wargames Factory meltdown. I'm not an insider in this mess in any way or sense of the word, and as I already have my Zulus, Zombies, and Greatcoat Infantry, I don't have anything to gain, nor lose, regardless of how the WF saga pans out.

I do not know Wai Kee Hui or George Sivy, and have only interacted w/Lonnie Mullins in passing, here on TMP, on a very few occasions.

That said?

I've been around TMP for a while- longer than most, at this point, I daresay. I've swapped messages, both public and private, with Tony and Howard both, over the years- Howard moreso than Tony, but a fair few times in either case.

Howard and Tony both are, in the parlance, "standup guys." They're good people, unfailingly friendly when treated with even the slightest modicum of civility, they've always been helpful whenever asked, far above and beyond any responsibility they may have as TMP regulars, and they are both what I'd consider pillars of the TMP community, on par w/John the OFM, the Weavers, and so forth.

No letter, no matter how much "legal retouching" and "professional vetting" it may receive from attorneys, PR professionals, and the like, can change that.

They are who they are, and they have proven their character time and time again, over and over, year after year.

There's a lot of snide condescension and eyerolling here these days, particularly in regards to this issue, but I can't help but notice that the vast majority of it is coming from a combination of the usual gang of complainers, and users who've only wandered in from the cyber-cold relatively recently.

To the first part of the group just mentioned, there's nothing to be said- they're going to find *something* to grouse about, because it largely seems to be their primary reason for joining TMP, if not for existing, period.

To the second, all I ask is perhaps consider the number of long-term TMP users who have shown their support for Tony and Howard in this. Loyalty doesn't necessarily come easy here at TMP- we can be a divisive bunch, cantankerous and opinionated almost to a man. The fact that those who've been around Tony and Howard to longest are the ones most supportive of them, well, I think that speaks volumes more than the letters from either side of this dispute can hope to.

On that note, I feel I've said what I needed to say, and been true to myself.

I'll shut up now.

- Monk

It's pretty easy to rack up that kind of cost when you bring the molds into it. When I worked for Coca-Cola a single plastic shell mold was 100K. I have no idea what a mold for plastic figures may be, but I would guess that they are expensive. The 250K must have included mold making and injection.

I also find it odd that these men would air their grievances on this forum. Most people would rather this be kept private.

With regards to the company.
As some of you have stated, time will tell.

There's a lot of snide condescension and eyerolling here these days, particularly in regards to this issue, but I can't help but notice that the vast majority of it is coming from a combination of the usual gang of complainers, and users who've only wandered in from the cyber-cold relatively recently.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Knocking people as relative noobs who take a different pov on an issue is not exactly objective (neither is they are standup blokes so they must be the ones in the right). I do wonder too whether those long term users divide in their pov on which side of the pond they live (that snideness again!)– I don'tknow many British gamers who use WGF figures (perhaps any UK retailers could advise as to how WGF compared to WL, Victrix, Perrys, GB etc re sales)- their WSS figs were the only ones that interested me. Incidentally on the issue of costs – well perhaps it is possible to shell out so much – thats one reason why of course in the Uk so many companies use Renedra as there's no need with them to re-invent the wheel. Was it not mentioned somewhere in all this tangled web that someone implied to the original WGF that they should use Renedra or likely fail (obviously not by anyone linked to Renedra)

Hmmm…we know who wrote the Open Letter from Tony Reidy. So who wrote the Open Letter from Wai Kee Hui?

It was the Dukes, it was the Dukes.

I have only one comment as I do not care anything about one side or the other. I want to ask this ?

Jack and the other keep saying they were not paid for there wages? Why have you not made a claime with the state for unpaid wages?

Why would a Chinese tycoon worth $40 USD million waste his time trying to takeover a small U.S. company in a very small niche market?

It's impossible to tell whose fault the manufacturing/quality and customer service screw ups area, but the idea that they were part of a nefarious plan by a Chinese company to take over some obscure wargames soldier company seems fairly far fetched.

I think Bede19025 makes a huge point, Where not talking Facebook here? Where there is billions to be made in profits. I don't see anybody in this Industry sitting in the Forbes 500

Why would a Chinese tycoon worth $40.00 USD USD million waste his time trying to takeover a small U.S. company in a very small niche market?

--------------------------------------------------------------
Sapping and mining – remember all those Bond films with armies of Oriental henchmen hidden away. Large containers arriving from the Far East into a remote mid west warehouse -labelled plastic soldiers – oh really – probably building a huge laser array (from all those excess sprues) as we speak!

Why would a Chinese tycoon worth $40 USD USD million waste his time trying to takeover a small U.S. company in a very small niche market?

Jackpot!

Why would a Chinese tycoon worth $40.00 USD USD USD million waste his time trying to takeover a small U.S. company in a very small niche market?

Why would the adolescent son of another Chinese tycoon threaten a classmate in North America for receiving a $1 USD bag of chips that had lodged in a vending machine, and which a third classmate had obtained from the machine by buying the next bag on the coil? There can be all manner of reason, reasonable or not.

About the $250K debt, might some of it have been incurred had WF refused to pay for product that was defective?

Everyone comes out dirty in this. All that matters now is how the customers are served going forward.

"It is interesting that some of the early posters on this thread seemed to equate "professionally written" with "true". I have held several academic administrative posts, and the person I know who writes the most polished and professional-sounding missives on matters of department and college policy is also the biggest liar I know."

I've worked loss prevention for over a decade, took Administration of Justice courses for my undergraduate degree minor for a year with actual veteran law enforcement and probation/parole professionals for my instructors at SJSU, was mentored by several veteran police officers including a watch commander and another who has recently retired from his last position as a special investigator to a deputy district attorney. I am a trained researcher, and am currently being schooled quite fiercely in advanced research methods and analysis, being well along in my current MS program.

I've seen so many equate "polished" and "articulate" and "nice" and "professional" with matters being true and correct and the other party just MUST be honest 'cause they seemed so nice and well-dressed and well-spoken, ad nauseum.

I've seen those same people say those very things while I was taking a report about the latest set of counterfeit $100 USD bills they just accepted into their till, or the latest entire row of clothing that the nice, well-dressed, professional person's partners just swept off the rack and out of the store, the jewelry that nice, well-dressed, professional-looking person just slight-of-handed right out from under their noses, the stolen credit cards the just passed, the phony contracts they just signed and paid for and nothing was ever delivered, ad endless nauseum.

Enough about my bona fides.

I've read of God-only-knows how many such cases across the country and beyond over the past 30+ years. They all have a common denominator, that the victims *assumed* that because the perp(s) presented themselves in so charming and professional a manner, that they just seemed sooo *nice* that it just never occurred to the victim(s) to stop and ask questions, they just *assumed* that everything was OK, that this person was precisely as they appeared.

Does this sound familiar to everyone?

"Facts… are difficult things!" said John Adams, and I have to agree with him. And empirical facts are not opinions. We are all entitled to our own opinions in this or in any other matter, but IMHO we are *never* entitled to our own facts.

Given the repeated attacks on this company when it first launched accusing them of "deplorable business practices" among other things without a shred of proof, the repeated bashing of it seemed every move they made under Tony Reidy's leadership or idea they floated by individuals who otherwise had essentially no basis for their criticisms save *opinions,* and the events that have followed since the take over by Wai Kee, Lonnie Mullins, and George Sivy, I for one simply cannot yet accept their side of events at face value.

Their claims simply do not match up with the facts or events that I have borne witness to on this and other fora including their own official website, Facebook page, and other official correspondence including this letter.

So if anyone here still thinks that because something sounds nice and professional that its content must therefore be the 100% unvarnished truth, I have some beachfront property in Utah for sale, and I promise y'all I'll give you a great price for the property, you betcha!

Leland R. Erickson

Hoping it all gets cleared up for the best of everyone. Although if I can give one shread of advice to the New WF owners.

"It would be advisable sirs, for you to keep a tight rein and sharp eye on Mr. Mullins, and the material that thinks is "witty and amusing" and has it published on gaming sites. His poor attempts at humor and bad timing and coorelation to things, doesn't make your company look favorable in the eyes of many. Might I suggest that you give him the "Before you send out anything, run it by ME for approval first." orders, that a lot of editors give their writers…

This will help avoid any future nastiness….

@Murphy: Great advice! I was thinking of making a similar suggestion.

Regarding "professionally written." I get paid to write. That includes writing marketing copy. While I personally never include falsehoods in my writing, I do accentuate the positive.

That and I have Photoshop and I'm not afraid to use it.

Wyatt

picture

Warning realistic language and cats.

"Why would a Chinese tycoon worth $40 USD USD million waste his time trying to takeover a small U.S. company in a very small niche market?"

An excellent question. How much does GW report in yearly profits? IIRC their plastic manufacturing is now all in China, isn't it?

Can anybody confirm this for me regarding GWs ops in the PRC?

*Perception* can have a great deal to do with people's decision making (even when the perception isn't backed up by the empirical facts).

If the people making the decisions were able and/or willing to dig just a little deeper into the matter before committing themselves to a course of action, they might spare themselves a great deal of otherwise avoidable grief and loss of revenue, sanity, and reputation.

Leland R. Erickson

"That and I have Photoshop and I'm not afraid to use it."

Yer a dangerous man, Wyatt…

Leland R. Erickson

"Now, Wyatt, about that picture of Ghadaffi in his tent and all those goats in veils and silk skirts…"

Given the repeated attacks on this company when it first launched accusing them of "deplorable business practices" among other things without a shred of proof, the repeated bashing of it seemed every move they made under Tony Reidy's leadership or idea they floated by individuals who otherwise had essentially no basis for their criticisms save *opinions,* and the events that have followed since the take over by Wai Kee, Lonnie Mullins, and George Sivy, I for one simply cannot yet accept their side of events at face value.

--------------------------------------------------------------
whose side of events?. As a law enforcement professional I'd concur with your observations, but they could equally apply to both sides – I and my colleagues attend trials where there are no end of character witness coming in to say what a decent chap the defendant is and how he could never have done what he is accused of (nb for the avoidance of any doubt I am not accusing anyone in the whole affair of anything criminal!)
Leaving aside the irrelevancy to the debate of the ethnicity of the person who argued about a vending machine matter (like no rock stars etc kids etc expect to be bowed down to and given special treatment) – "About the $250K debt, might some of it have been incurred had WF refused to pay for product that was defective?" Well Mr Wai says that was what was owed – Mr Reidy says a huge sum was sent – its not clear if the overall bill was higher and that even after the huge amount $250K still remained that they didn't pay because of quality issues.

I think both Wargames Factory and Defiance Games have lost the plot. Neither side are doing themselves any favours by constantly bringing this up.
The only important thing is to concentrate on producing reasonable quality figures at a fair price and to keep them reliably available to buy.
So far neither company has produced anything new(i.e. not already partially made before the split).
Let both companies put their energy in producing something tangible and not in looking over each other shoulders and trying to stir things up for each other.
It's time to move on.

See what I missed by going out and working for a living?

I have met Howard. I have broken bread with Howard. I will go with what he said.

"whose side of events?. As a law enforcement professional I'd concur with your obervations but it could equally apply to both sides – I and my colleagues attend trials where there are no end of character witness coming in to say what a decent chap the defendant is and how he could never have done what he is accused of (nb for the avoidance of any doubt I am not accusing anyone in the whole affair of anything criminal!)"

Precisely my point. Would that others on this and other fora since the launch of WF under Tony Reidy and cadre and since had been so rational about matters…

"Leaving aside the irrelevancy to the debate of the ethnicity of the person who argued about a vending machine matter (like no rock stars etc kids etc expect to be bowed down to and given special treatment) –"

A complete non-sequitur. The ethnicity of one side or the other is not relevant here.

"About the $250K debt, might some of it have been incurred had WF refused to pay for product that was defective?" Well Mr Wai says that was what was owed – Mr Reidy says a huge sum was sent – its not clear if the overall bill was higher and that even after the huge amount $250K still remained that they didn't pay because of quality issues."

That's one for the lawyers. Personally, I see this letter as just one more attempt at deflection and face-saving by the current controlling parties in the wake of a string of continuing screw-ups and self-inflicted PR wounds worthy of the Keystone Kops led by Chief Inspector Basil Fawlty…

Leland R. Erickson

This is all rather silly and very dramatic in a teenage girl sorta way.

That's a lot of money. And personal reputations are worth even more. So it's not silly to be concerned. Ideally everyone would be totally unemotional and restrained in what they say -- but it probably IS silly to expect that of human beings.

Time perhaps for a poll asking how well the company, and/or the individuals come out of all this?

I'll still go on product myself, however dramatic the soap operatics become.

Interesting link about this worth checking out: link

I have only one comment as I do not care about one side or the other.
@CelticPagan. It is Mr. Hui, not Mr. Wai. Yes, Chinese have their last name, or shall I say surname, come first. However, you will find that most often or not, when writing in English, they will use English first & last name convention.

Poll, Poll, Poll!

Would any of you care to see the PDF file from the COO of Triangle? They have provided us (and Mr. Reidy) with a statement for monies owed to them since 2/24/09 to 9/30/10 (Wai Kee took over ownership in October of 2010 with Mr. Reidy managing WF until he was removed by Mr. Sivy at the end of December; Wai Kee has paid Triangle what WF owed from October 2010 until we transferred the inventory to Utah). Bill (the editor) has that statement from Wai Kee Hui as well, on Triangle letterhead, and signed by their COO. When and if he posts it, you will find the phone number to Triangle's office, if you care to confirm. One might wonder why Mr. Reidy failed to pay his original debts to Triangle—I certainly do. These monies are Mr. Reidy's responsibility not only because they were undisclosed at the time of the ownership transfer, but because at the time the debt accrued, Mr. Reidy was the shareholder in control of WF.

As a side note, I was not conspiring with nor working for the Chinese investor against WF nor did I forward Mr. Reidy's email to Wai Kee and George until AFTER Mr. Reidy was removed from a management role at WF. I forwarded it because I was asked by my new employer to forward any correspondence I had received from Mr. Reidy. I had, in fact, spoken to George Sivy a total of 3-times (and not at all to Wai Kee Hui) prior to the transition; once in Connecticut at a meeting where all of the WF staff save Tim Barry were in attendance and twice more to find out when I was going to get paid for my services as Sales Director since our checks were not coming in a timely manner. I was approached by Mr. Sivy and offered a position as the Sales Director for WF an hour after Mr. Reidy fired off his email to Howard, John, Tim and me telling us we were effectively out of jobs. Again, I did not forward that email until after Mr. Reidy had been fired; the deed was already done.

My loyalty, first and foremost, is to my family; I need to provide for my wife and 3-year-old son. Mr. Sivy's generous offer to once again don my sales mantle after effectively being let go by Mr. Reidy in an email was happily and gratefully accepted. I had considered the people I worked with at Wargames Factory to be friends and fought to have them kept on until their false allegations hit the forums.

And here I must offer an apology—it was at this point that I allowed my frustration and anger to spill through a few of my public postings, which I should not have done. Suffice to say that once the "Open Letter" and the vitriol that followed went viral, things got scary for my wife and son. Misinformed fans of Mr. Reidy went so far as to email death threats to me and my family --which in hindsight were probably ramblings of internet trolls made from the safety of their computer screens--but at the height of absurdity it is sometimes difficult to see that clearly. Even now, on the Defiance Games web site this was posted by Uhtred: "You know the 'No Russian' mission on Modern Warfare 2? Would it be too far to suggest we do that at WF?" Which appears to advocate a civilian massacre of current WF management and staff.

The team I now work with has turned out to be much better friends in my opinion and I look forward to working with them making miniatures for you for many, many years.

Lonnie Mullins
Sales Director and Product Manager
Wargames Factory

Sigh….

Well, when this all happened I chose to give Lonnie Mullins and Wargames factory the benefit of the doubt. If Wargames factory kept making figures I wanted to buy I didn't care about the drama, the details were none of my business.
Then, I opened a line of comunication with Mr Mullins who I had corosponded with. What replies I got were kinda rude and standoffish when he did respond. That, along with his passive, aggressive and rather unprofessional behavior on face book made me realize that Wargames Factory is being run badly.
I have the decided that the only way that I will ever consider giving Wargames Factory my business is if they pay Tony, Howard and the others the back pay that is owed them, and, that Triangle gets paid thier owed money. Until then I'll be giving another company my money.

"Misinformed fans of Mr. Reidy went so far as to email death threats to me and my family --which in hindsight were probably ramblings of internet trolls made from the safety of their computer screens--but at the height of absurdity it is sometimes difficult to see that clearly. "

And did you duly report these threats to your local law enforcement agency? If you have not, then I for one urge you to do so.

Such are neither excusable nor should they be ignored in these uncertain times, Mr. Mullins, "trolls" or no "trolls."

Leland R. Erickson

Whatever, the die is cast. When will see Defiance Games products?

Now I have heard it all death threats? massacres? cats and dogs living together mass hysteria!

Jeez what a clusterf$^%…

Cool. I found out some nifty info on Wai Kee Hui. Here is his company's website: link

It reminded me of my good friend Gary who started his own plastic molding company back in the 1990s. He was working on a single product to use in swimming pools. He had a couple minor products, but everything went into just one product. He pumped well over $250,000 into it, all his life savings, retirement, 'stocks' from his few employees, and a silent partner. Sadly, his debts became too great. His silent partner called in the chips and he lost the company without ever getting the main product made. Ruined his health while trying to save to business. His wife left him a couple years later. He never saw the errors of his ways, though we all saw the writing on the wall long before the demise. Really sad. We all were such good friends that our son called him "Uncle Gary". Odd how I hadn't thought about that in years until looking at the Addison website, thinking of my grandfather's tool & die company (which my two cousins ran into the ground via debt) and then Gary.

I would assume WF was a new venture for Addison? A way to expand into learning about injection molds (or whatever it is). They learn by doing projects for a small-time operation like WF, work out the kinks, and chalk it all up to R&D, before expanding big time in the real plastics market they want to enter. It makes perfect sense and good business. WF fronts the money for their R&D, while Addison might turn a profit. I doubt profit from WF was even considered, considering the R&D angle.

So how close am I to the truth of the arrangement?

BTW Wai also works with Bid Network as an investor looking to couple with entrepreneurs in plastics in China. Here is one of his investments: link It looks like it went under?

(Well, this killed an evening for me!)

The first thing an attorney will tell a client: "Keep your mouth shut!".

That may shed light on who is lawya'd up and who is not in this case (those that are lawya'd up tend to be the less reputable party, IMO)