"OMM: Pre-Fall In Rules & Book Blitz" Topic

Thats quite a price jump for DBA-I was expecting around $20 USD or so.I'll have to wait awhile,as I've got other projects ahead of it,and my cash is very limited. :(

They had to pay for that sweet cover art somehow.

Now, I think they are doing it just to me off.

How is it different? Is it written in English now?

(cheap shot, I know. I've very much enjoyed DBA over the years).

Ochoin that is funny.

The OMM site lists it as a hardback, may explain the expense of a set of "fast play" rules.

(I'm UK based so have provide figs for both side of the pond) If you take another well known ancients rule set (which IMHO is not any more complex) you'd be looking at spending around £30.00 GBP/$48 for the rulebook plus another £20.00 GBP/$32 per army list supplement book (each of which covers only a small period).

I guess it depends on your perspective but whilst the non-DBA set does have much "higher" production values what are you really getting for the extra bucks… a lot of fluff and gratuitous pictures of pretty toy soldiers..?

There are some aspects of DBx rules which I agree are somewhat, lets say, old fashioned eg. layout and style etc but surely the price of DBA 3 is actually pretty good value considering it is hardback, 144 pages and comes complete with army lists for the ENTIRE period and now with expanded background info? Just a shame about that cover art though…

Still not convinced at that kind of money!

Loved DBA back in the day and would like to play again but "production values" can only stretch the cost so far on what are deliberately written as the simplest of rules.

Army lists don't do it for me either, who cares if it covers the entire period, how many Armies are you actually going to play with, even at 12 stands per side?

I'll stick with the "old" version, don't want to redo my armies to fit the new rules.

I'll get it. I've played the new version and much prefer it. It will be good to have the new rules and lists all in one book.

Just to clear up some misinformation.

DBA 3.0 still has the about the same number of pages of rules as the old version. The number of words has increased, but not the page count. The writing style is still unmistakeably Phil's but has been edited to be more readable and straight forward. (Your mileage may vary on this…but we tried)

The increase in the page count to 144 pages is due to the inclusion of diagrams, an index, and the vast expansion of the army lists.

The number of lists has been increased. They now include a brief historical introduction, explanation of some element types, and a list of sources (both historical and fictional). The lists are now also more understandable for the new player.

The majority of older version armies can be used unchanged. Most armies will not have to be "redone". The major changes are the addition and expansion of the available options. Some armies that have changed will usually require only one or two new elements. Very few armies have undergone radical transformations.

For instance… My Anglo-Danes are usable without change.
My Pre-Feudal Scots required the change of one stand. My Poly Romans are usable unchanged. My Carthaginians required the change of 2? stands. My Burgundians were usable without change… but I have added 3 new stands of Mounted Longbowmen… a cool new troop type. They are optional in the list. One version of my Alex Macs required the change of one stand… another version was unchanged. My English HYW army is usable unchanged… though there are many optional versions of it… so I was almost guaranteed that one would fit. Most of my Late Medieval stuff was unchanged, though I plan to add more options.

I play about 32 different armies (5x 6 player campaigns… Punic, Fall of Rome,Dark Ages, Crusades, Death of the Middle Ages + a couple of others).

This is clearly Phil's "Magnum Opus". I think it quite worth the money.

Joe Collins

It's still 12 stands pretending to represent Ancient warfare.
I played it a few times way back before there were numbers and decimal points after the name. I thought it was a fine simple novelty that got taken over by the louts who deliberately misunderstand to win.

err… no it isn't just 12 stands.

There are both a "Big Battle Game" and a "Giant Battle" game rules included. Both can be used to refight historical battles. DBA 3 does a fine job at this. It does this so well in fact, that the play test team is designing a compatible product "Great Battles in History for DBA 3". This will be a free PDF download of historical scenarios for DBA 3.

The publication will be available sometime after Sue Barker's "Start Ancient Wargaming" is published. Sue's product is a starter guide for Ancient Wargaming using DBA 3.0.

Joe Collins

My take on DBA has always been that it is like a good bar burger. When you don't have the time, money or energy for the multi-course extravaganza, play DBA. Losing a 30 minute game doesn't smart nearly as much as losing a 5 hour game.

As for deliberate misunderstanding, don't play tournaments. In any rules.

I will also say that I was taken aback at first by the new price. But if the army lists will stand alone and not require looking at the DBM lists/WRG/whatever lists to fill them out that's all good. I also will say that I have a number of hard cover coffee table rule books that look lovely. I've either stopped playing them after a game or two or have never played them at all. They cost $40 USD to $50. USD I've been playing DBA one way or another since the 90's. That's more value per dollar than any other rules I've used since 1963.

I will agree with most of what Joe says above. Don't ignore the game because you're afraid of the army lists. The lists have been expanded to include many more options, but the core for a majority of the 600 Armies is still the same as those in the last version. However do note that a hardcover adds to the price, Is it a bonus? There are still no pictures even though there are diagrams so you're getting a $40 USD book including postage with no Eye candy just lots of nice lists.

I'm always amazed, I guess not amazed but intrigued, that people take any opportunity to badmouth the actual game of DBA. This is a thread about the release of the new book it's not about the content of the game, just the content and structure of the book.

Bob, it is kind of strange how WRG seems to illicit this kind of response. Maybe it's the $40 USD price tag for a 4 page set of rules.

I tried to like them when they first came out but the verbiage turned my brain into a cork screw. I tried to like every edition to no avail. My loss since the original concept is brilliant.

I have a similar relationship with DBA – I really WANT to like the game, and I keep coming back to it and hoping it will grow on me, but it never really seems to quite scratch the itch. Still, I'll be buying this version – from reading the drafts, it does seem significantly improved, and it will be worth it for the army lists even if nothing else.

Doug

I'm not sure why they felt the need to go hardbound. Competing with GW? Why bother? With the expanded size and more army lists I'd like to check it out. Right now my cash flow is really tight but Its definitely in my "buy" queue.

The idea of Phil & Sue 'competing' with GW is just laughable.

At the end of the day, PB is someone who has written some of the most influential sets of wargames rules over a 40 year period. DBA in my view was a masterpiece. And yes, he's a cantankerous old in his 80s, he writes a version of English that hasn't been taught in 60 years, but the very simplicity of DBA compared to what went before is amazing.

It is probably, outside the GW 'multiverse' one of; if not the most frequently played sets of wargames rules ever.

My first game of DBA is etched in my memory as the finest, most eloquent surrealistic wargaming experience in my many hours of moving lead and rolling cubed randomizers. It turned my wargaming experience (young at the time) upside down for it's design: simplicity while retaining depth.

I felt that holding the stapled paperback rules was a mild form of rebellion against the larger game companies. The army lists is a Baskin/Robbins of choices. With my undergraduate degree in ancient and medieval Asian history I think it sufficient and wonderful to read. Hell, I can just read the army lists and be happy!

That said: I look forward to seeing these new rules. I've been gone too long from OMM so I should grab my tea mug and pay Dennis a visit.

Time to dust off my Vikings and Germans….

Vikings play very differently under the new rules. Blades pursue. Our Viking/Saxon fights have been hum dingers.

Khurusu, please don't misunderstand. What I meant to say was along the lines of "why try to follow the crowd" with a hardback volume unless Phil is intending this to be his Magnum Opus. The appeal of DBA was its "counterculture" design ethic. Its a throwback to the "Stone Age" of gaming before glossy hardbacks and full color photo spread pages with rules all over them became the standard for a "good rules set"