"Hitlerjugend Platoon Released for Flames Of War" Topic

10mm, I assume.

Or 6mm 😄

nasty, now you can play with kids as combatants. In history they were send into combat with their boyscout/Hilteryouth uniforms and just one panzerfaust or a weapon with 3 rounds of ammo just to gain the beloved Führer another day of his Götterdämmerung.

Do they have a special rule for limted ammo in flames of war?

@Shapurll: you do know, that scouting was forbidden by the Nazis?

So, being an active Scout leader, your "boyscout/Hitlerjugend" connection annoys me extremely.

So therefore by extending your thoughtline no drummer boy figures are allowed when wargaming other periods in history Shapurll? Yes I know they weren't armed, but they're still children and were still historically involved in battle.

I think this phase of the war was especially grim, but then you could probably say that about any conflict, especially where total war was involved.

I've seen quite a few volksturm and HY figures in 20mm so I can't really see what the criticism is here.

Are the models about a head shorter than the regular 15mm sculpts?

Historical accuratesse aside, this release is in very dubious taste…

How can it be in dubious taste?

It happened and it's part of history. If we ignore the more vulgar parts of history then we encourage history to repeat itself.

Maybe, but if you wish to be historically accurate when recreating WW2………

It's about time SOMEONE released these – it has been ignored for ages. We don't need to be PC even when talking about the 3rd Reich, do we?

Arent they a little short to be storm troopers…? wakka wakka

I don't see what is wrong with these figures since they portray something from history which actually happened,and at the end of the day they are only models. What I do find rather disturbing is living history re-enactment groups who have children dressing up as Hitler Youth at events such as War & Peace, whilst the majority of the German ranks seem to think that portaying the SS is cooler than being Heer regiments.However, as essayons says, how can you be PC when talking about the Nazis?

These are nice figures and there is nothing wrong with having them on the board. It is historical!

I would leave the table if they showed up. No game includes 100% of historical details. This is one that I pass on. Not interested in arguing about whether that's logical, just how it is.

Yes, they existed, yes, it's just toy soldiers, yes, it's historical.

But I'll politely tap out of any game involving child soldiers.

I don't know why people get so offended that someone else doesn't want to do something.

The reason people react strongly to other stating that they would not play on a table with these miniatures is because, as a society, we take any disdain for something that we personally are not offended by as an accusation of our intent.
I am sure there is no one here will be painting Hitler youth and gleefully giggling about how cool it will be when the Russians mow them down, But we have become so sensitive to all dissent because on other matter dissent is an accusation.
Just my take on the matter.

As an edit I also blame the internet.

A question for those who object to these figures: do you also object to modeling the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend on the game table?

I don't feel strongly about it one way or the other, I'm just curious. For what it's worth, I don't own any SS figures; all my WWII Germans are Heer troops. Feldgrau is easier to paint than pea dot camo!

link

The Germans did'nt have a monopoly on child soldiers unfortunately.

The question is not if child soldier is a bad thing.
Child soldiers are a bad thing.
The question is representing this aspect of war on the table.

I don't tend to put on scenarios with SS troops, but I've played them in ASL.

My thing is: There's no shortage of ww2 scenarios and units I'd rather play with, so why go out of my way to do these guys?

Others can do exactly as they please and all is well. My choices should not impact your choices in any way, shape or form.

Let me ask this:

How are these any different, aside from historical period, from any number of other examples of poorly armed people with little or no training being forced or coerced into military service all through history?

Do those who find this "offensive" or "distasteful" have the same reaction to the peasant levies that are so common in medieval and feudal armies? How about the "horde" units in ancient barbarian armies that are stated to be made up of "elderly, infirm, women, and children"? And then there are the "adolescent skirmishers" that feature in many ancient Celtic armies.

The ones made by Corvis Belli even look like little kids.

If you also find these other examples to be a distasteful subject for a wargaming army, then at least you're being consistent. But if not, then why?

And now the off topic stuff…

What I do find rather disturbing is living history re-enactment groups who have children dressing up as Hitler Youth at events such as War & Peace

Eh.
I see it as a way to get the family involved in the reenactment hobby. I have no kids, but the wife has shown up in the impression of a German DRK nurse before. I don't see that as any different.

whilst the majority of the German ranks seem to think that portaying the SS is cooler than being Heer regiments

It's far from being just the German side. It's the "Elite Unit Over-representation" phenomenon that is common throughout the reenacting hobby. There is also a very disproportionate amount of American Airborne (the numbers really spiked after Band of Brothers aired) and British Para units at most WW2 events as well. Other reenactment periods do it as well. There are far too many in, for example, American Civil War reenacting who choose to portray high profile or famous units like Hood's Texans or the Iron Brigade. People just tend to get drawn to the units they find interesting, at the expense of the more mundane and commonplace.

Me? I've portrayed both Heer and Waffen SS over the years.

I don't play pre-19th century barely at all, but I'd avoid child soldiers in third world armies and the likes.

Heck, I am trying to think of any games I've played that explicitly lets you field child soldiers.

Chain of Command doesn't list them. AK47 doesn't discuss it. Crossfire has no mention. Nuts doesn't have them. Troops, Weapons and Tactics does not.
I don't recall seeing HJ units in my old copy of Command Decision. They're not in Spearhead.
They're not mentioned anywhere in my battered copies of the WRG rules.

You can argue that any unit could be made of children, but then, presumably they'd be depicted in the illustrations or featured in scenarios, right?

So I don't see why people get so bothered that I'd prefer not playing in such a scenario. Judging from the materials on my bookshelf, it's hardly a unique view.

and most of the lads that went into combat wore field uniforms…in fact, its been commented that they had to start making a child sized steel helmet.

Chain of Command doesn't list them. AK47 doesn't discuss it. Crossfire has no mention. Nuts doesn't have them. Troops, Weapons and Tactics does not.
I don't recall seeing HJ units in my old copy of Command Decision. They're not in Spearhead.
They're not mentioned anywhere in my battered copies of the WRG rules.

There are HJ units in Bolt Action's German army book and both the Disposable Heroes German army book and their Berlin campaign book. The former is arguably one of the most commonly played WW2 games today. So it's not just FoW.

So I don't see why people get so bothered that I'd prefer not playing in such a scenario.

I for one am not attacking you. Nor am I trying to change your mind on the issue. It's your call. I'm just curious about the mindset that finds such a subject objectionable and if it logically extends to other periods or if it's a purely NS Germany thing.

I refuse to play Imperial Japanese in WWII for the same reasons.

And Communists in Vietnam.

And Ambush Alley generally.

And… oh, you get the idea.

and most of the lads that went into combat wore field uniforms…in fact, its been commented that they had to start making a child sized steel helmet.

From photos I have seen very few HJ "troops" (for lack of a better word) seem to have been issued helmets. The same can be said of Volksturm units. The most common helmet seems to have been the various Luftshutze helmets. I've always liked the look of the "gladiator style" Luftshutze helmet. Battlefront should have kitted some of their HJ troops with that model of headgear.

link

There are blurred lines in war, for instance the formation in 1943 of the 12th SS Hitler Jugend which took HJ recruits born in 1926 as it's first draft. These troops were issued sweets instead of alcohol and tobacco according to the page source I just referred to. The picture shows them in training, and how young they were (17 y.o.). This unit fought in Normandy, Falaise and the Ardennes.I would have no worries depicting this unit if I was gaming these battles in the name of historical accuracy, as I'm sure most others feel likewise.
I'm sure most of us have now seen Fury on TV or in the cinema and it's depiction of HJ in combat.Whilst this was obviously included with the intention of probably shocking some unwitting viewers it was also historically accurate, and therefore in my view if companies wish to include HJ models in their manufacturing schedule and wargaming scenarios that is fine. It's just the modern interpretation of re-enactors I find slightly disturbing, but that's just my personal opinion.
IIRC correctly there was some fallout over some SS re-enactors at Salute a few years ago with several objections from those attending.I think attitudes over this side of the pond possibly vary with those in the States Martin H Wolverton. Re your note about people wanting to join units representing 'elite' formations, I only see two groups in the UK representing Fallschirmjager, and one of those is SS, which begs the question why would you feel the need in the first place to go that one step further and portray what was an already 'elite' force as one that needs the letters SS in front?

If something has happened on the battlefield why not wargame it? Young kids have been used as soldiers since wars began. If you find it morally wrong to game it then maybe you shouldn't be gaming at all. 4 men slowly burning to death in a tank or a 9th century peasant screaming as his guts uncoil round his feet are awful things, but people merrily game them. It's war, you can't pretend it's a nice thing on a gaming table.

If something has happened on the battlefield why not wargame it? Young kids have been used as soldiers since wars began. If you find it morally wrong to game it then maybe you shouldn't be gaming at all.

Maybe some people do not want to represent all historical aspects of war in a wargame. There are some pretty ugly examples to think of after all. Worse than child soldiers even.

Maybe some people have a right to think gaming these aspects is in bad taste. Maybe those people do not deny you your right to play child soldiers, concentration camps or whatever, but just disapprove of your choice.

Maybe, no, propably you should not suggest them leaving the wargame hobby, simply because they have other tastes than you.

Actually outside of a competition gaming mentality this sort of thing could throw up some interesting dilemmas from a re enacting or role playing perspective. For example Late War German commanders weren't fielding children or old men out of choice, they were literally all they had at their disposal. You could choose to fight a defensive game taking minimal risks, representing 'a father to his men' type commander. Ok you will probably 'lose' but maybe surviving long enough to be able to outlive the wars end could be considered a victory, given the right sort of rules.

As for getting coverage in other games, the Operation Bagration supplement for Rules of Engagement (Great Escape Games) mentions them as part of Volksturm section, and there is an explicit option provided to field Hitlerjugend tank hunter teams with panzerfausts. They are certainly not glorified in that book.

As for coverage of the topic in German media, there is the famous novel Die Brücke (1958), turned into a film the next year, which involves a bunch of hastily drafted 16 year olds defending a bridge against Americans in spring 1945.

Citizen Kenau,

You can't cherry pick my post to quote, the second half related to the first. I have no interest in gaming concentration camps or child nazis, because I don't game that period. What I said was that all war involves death, mutilation, pain, fear and other awful things. The way some people are going on about here is that their particular era/game is whiter than white and they have some sort of moral high ground for refusing to play certain aspects of war. Unfortunately wars involve horror at all levels.

You can choose to play them or not play them. Just don't take away my choice to choose because you feel it is inappropriate. This politically correct world we now live in is eliminating our choices.

From the perspective of tactics, the Americans found the Hitler Youth formations challenging at times.

People who find the subject distasteful are free not to add this to their games.

Ok…so if you find this offensive you are now too Politically Correct or you are taking away choices for those that want a true gaming experiance. Heck lets go the whole way now…lets add Einsatzgruppen to your nazi armies because they were such a important part of the master plan and all. They served so we need to honour their role. And unarmed civilians? Again because we would not want to be PC .