"Mongoose Denies Link to Harassment Campaign" Topic

Landorl - no it hasn't. Still there, most recent message came through a minute ago. There was an administrative fubar in which a bunch of members got dropped but you can rejoin.

The "threat" to the discussion lists is totally empty. No IP laws give companies the right to stop people discussing a given subject (in the US the First Amendment is a factor for starters). If the group started hosting copyright material (videos of episodes, scripts, etc.) then Yahoo would probably close them down but otherwise it has nothing to fear.

IP issues aside, the hobby really doesn't need a juvenile IP lone ranger picking on companies he doesn't approve of. What next? What will this person start on when the SF Egyptians are all gone?

Sad turn of events, however you look at it.

In any case, reporting people to authorities for things like this is sad and disgusting.

I have to agree, having read the original email on several of the Yahoo groups, this is not an official statement. This is someone causing trouble, probably for the sheer hell of it and enjoying the thrill they are getting from all the attention that it is raising.

1. There is no real evidence that Mongoose is behind it. "I'm from Mongoose and I am because I say so" doesn't mean they are.

2. The language, syntax, content and method of delivery of the message almost certainly supports that. This is almost certainly not official. An official desist order would have come through official channels. Yahoo sites would have been shut down by a desist order on Yahoo, not by a (spam?) junk message.

I doubt that these 'people' have actually informed anyone. I'm moderately sure that the IP holders in question have a vague awareness of the products already and probably don't consider it a big enough issue to worry about - let's face it, in the global scheme of things wargaming is a very small market compared to the toy market.

That is not to say that they couldn't decide that they wanted to close down the market if they decided that it was an issue worth persuing. In the event of a desist order we would instantly do so for the line we hold - it's just not big or profitable enough to warrant either fighting or licencing. The IP protection comments above are all valid, and it's as wrong as taping off the radio or the TV - just cos we all do it (and will continue to do so) does'nt mean it's right.

So what can/do we do?
This is someone who is aware of Yahoo groups and the wargames market, one of our own. We have plenty of computer tech-heads in the industry who can follow IP trails (our own Bill included). If their email headers are on the Yahoo groups, let's all send them an email :-)

Or just ignore it.

You can legally tape off of TV or Radio... just don't sell the tapes :)

That doesn't fall under IP, thats covered with the Home Recording Act
here in the states.

--
Gregg
Strange Cargo Games
http://www.strangecargogames.com

10th Foot has it almost right when he says that, "some IP holders may not wish to see a product AT ALL if it is seen to have a negative impact on the brand. So perhaps the miniatures gaming hobby and all that suggests may not be something they want any part of."

My limited experience in this area is that the major players, like a Sony or MGM, demand a VERY high licensing fee for the rights to use their succesful properties. The barrier to entry is pretty high, since it would be very hard for someone to sell enough miniatures into our niche hobby to recoup the cost of the licensing fees. The studios are also more interested in licensing properties that can support their brands with co-marketing ties ins, promos, etc.

That means VOLUME, VOLUME, VOLUME, and integration into a company's marketing plans. Just look to GW's LOTR miniature game based upon the movies -- high volume (for our hobby) and supports the movies by marketing the LOTR brand into a potential movie-going demographic.

Where does it end? Lawyers can be like nukes -- use 'em, and we all lose. Anybody who is stupid enough to use lawsuits to get into a gaming space made popular by the likes of Eureka and others who have created and fostered "Ancient Sci-fi Egyptian" based gaming will probably fail.

What a lovely trend. Can we next expect to see someone push Paramount/Dreamworks to sue over any WWII figures that could be construed as having been based upon the movie Saving Private Ryan? Maybe Oliver Stone can urged by a fledgling minis company into defending his rights to "Alexander" by shutting down ancients minis that look like they could have been based upon his movie?? Has Warhammer Historical checked with the major movie houses to see if its new Old West rules might cross the line? Maybe Disney could be led into thinking that any or all of the Pirate figures on the market were derived from Pirates of the Carribean??

Ordinarily I'm a big proponent of respecting other people's IP rights, but this twit needs a beating. Pretending to be a Mongoose employee is just not done, even in this era of sock puppetry.

Rich

"This is why you don't see cheesy Disney products."

10thFoot, did you REALLY just say that? I bring you: Pocahontas II: Journey To A New World, The Lion King 1 1/2, Cinderella II: Dreams Come True, OMFG The Hunchback Of Notre Dame II, etc...etc...etc...

You may have a point, but you're gonna have to pick another example.

[The Stargate Gamers Yahoo group is now gone. What a shame.]

Still looks like it's there to me:

groups.yahoo.com/group/Stargate_Gamers

DoctorX, - did you miss the previous discussion in this thread about fictional v. historical stuff? WW2, Alexander, and the Old West actually happened. They are fact. They cannot be copyrighted. Planet of the Apes and Stargate are fiction, they can be and have been.

Hundvig - looks to me by misrepresenting himself as a Mongoose Publications representative, the jerk has violated MP's IP.

To whoever it was that asked about whether a miniatures line has ever been blocked by a film company, the answer is yes. I can't remember which movie it was, but back in the '70's, Martian Metals advertised a new line based on it. The film company got an injunction within days of the ad appearing.

The unfortunate thing about Hollywood is that it just can't think in terms of hundreds or even thousands of dollars. It does not even impinge on the consciousness of the film company execs that they could be getting a small, but positive, income stream from a small-scale license for gaming figures.

rmaker-"To whoever it was that asked about whether a miniatures line has ever been blocked by a film company, the answer is yes. I can't remember which movie it was, but back in the '70's, Martian Metals advertised a new line based on it. The film company got an injunction within days of the ad appearing."

Are you thinking of Archive miniatures when they attempted to do star wars miniatures?

rmaker:

One issue with small licenses is that it costs more to write them than they're worth.

Say someone wants to do licensed Sky Captain minis. The studio asks for $250,000 (what they would consider small). Famous Miniatures Company counters with $5,000. The studio will point out that it will cost them upwards of $20,000 to review and approve the contract (and more - they also usually want to approve the creative for all products as well). All that time spent by lawyers, marketing execs, etc. is time and money.

I've been involved in many licensing deals with fast-food restaurants giving away toys, and those often run to seven figures for a 3 or 4 week license!

Centaur - no, that was another issue. I think, just maybe, that the film MM tried to copy was Ice Pirates, but I could be wrong. Something schlocky like that, though.

As a university professor, I constantly encounter juvenile writing. When my students complain about my writing assignment and my tough grading, I simply tell them that few people go very far in life without being able to write well.

I guess I should also say to my students that few people are able to pull off internet pranks without being able to write well. I don't think that anyone should take that email seriously, given that it reads as if written by a 12 year old.

Another theory, which may explain the juvenile writing:

A couple of months ago, a fanfilm maker got a nastygram from the (real) Stargate people for selling DVDs with his SG-1 fanfilms. The matter inexplicably turned into a flamewar between different camps of fanfilm people -- the more mature group saying that he knew he had crossed the line and put ALL fanfilm makers at risk, the less mature screaming bloody murder over his being "censored" or something like that.

Perhaps one of these... less mature fellows got his knickers sufficiently in a twist that he decided to go after EVERYONE and EVERYTHING that might be considered an homage to SG-1.

SaintRigger you are correct. A subpoena of documents from the ISP for the "e-enforcemet entity"(Eee!)would reveal EVERYTHING that Eee! has EVER sent or received.

EVERYTHING!

Every one of Eee's images, murmurs, sweet nothings, aspirations, EVERYTHING! Yes, the aggrieved parties' attoneys and/or law enforcement (real law enforcement - e.g. prosecutors) would be able to read every page of Eee!'s most private thoughts, wishes, internet romantic aspirations, commercial liaisons . . . just anything you can think of. All it takes is a valid, court ordered records subpoena.

Why would a court be willing to order such discovery? Well, several reasons. First, Eee! has not very tacitly accused a number of folks of IP infringement. If he cannot support this PUBLIC accusation, he is liable in some jurisdictions for defamation/libel. Also, he has threatened the commercial activities of various parties, and finally, through his ambiguous and vivid street language, has arguably threatened the persons of the targets of his accusations. The last bit moves the whole question from civil law into - yes, my favorite - CRIMINAL law!

Yes, I think that Eee! mat have crossed the line here, into cyberstalking, a newish area of law which varies widely in its recognition and interpretation, but then, in issueing threats over the internet, it goes to a lot of jurisdictions, eh? Just as secretly recording your conversations with another party is legal in some places, and criminal in others, Eee! would skate in many cases, and might be in violation of criminal statutes in other places. That is why a court could and might order the subpoena of Eee!'s ISP records.

Several caveats:

First, some of you point out that IP piracy is vile and retards the hobby and commerce in general. True. I agree, and knock off artists are rightly penalized for such activities. However, abusive threats to suppress similar but different concepts also has a negative impact on what is available, and at what prices. Besides being smarmy and nasty. I think unjustified accusations should be as vigorously punished as IP theft.

Second, I am not offering anyone legal advice, or purporting to practice law in this area. I am just expressing my own (informed) opinion on some of the possibilities in this, and similar incidents.

Third, before I get any patriotic, vitriolic, bombast about 4th or 5th Amendment rights, the alleged "right to privacy" or similar cartload of organic fertilizer, telling me that one cannot secure the totality of someone's internet records, just stop. I have secured such records and have read them. BTDT, to use the cliche'.

Fourth, I do not have a dog in the whole SG hunt. I do get exercised when people retreat wholesale from such ramshackle threats as seem to have been made in this matter.

rmaker, you are wrong when you say that "DoctorX, - did you miss the previous discussion in this thread about fictional v. historical stuff? WW2, Alexander, and the Old West actually happened. They are fact. They cannot be copyrighted."

AFAIK, if a product is sufficiently close to a branded property such that it can be construed as having been influenced by or based upon that property in any way, you can bet your sweet patootie that you could be pursued for copyright infringement. Even if the suit it failed, it would be very damaging to a small miniatures manufacturer.

All I'm saying, in an age of out of control litigation, is that it's not a stretch to think that even historically-based products could be targeted by the malicious-minded.

Given the case we're talking about here, where someone may be trying to influence a studio to screen off competition or cause harm via legal action, or the threat of legal action, it would be a serious thing for a company to get a letter from Dreamworks saying that "it has been brought to our attention that you are manufacturing and distributing product in violation of our rights to the brand 'Saving Private Ryan,' and we demand that you cease and desist all distribution of said product..."

More on these not being lawywers:

Lawyers do not send legal demands or summons via plain text email. Especially not with Yahoo. Anyone that's ever needed a lawyer can attest to how much paperwork and old-school "notarize and mail" there is. And that's how it should be IMO.

But no, a lawyer did not write the posted email, and I highly doubt any real lawyers are involved at all (save perhaps Mongoose's legal counsel.)

Well that got the TMP going at full steam, a lot of the points in these posts say what we all feel, good to see and it shows the feeling we have on certain issues. Big companys are like giants they need waking up do do some thing, we all get along with our hobby and are delighted when certain things turn up for us to use and enjoy, be they copyright or copies its our hobby.

Tony

"Lawyers do not send legal demands or summons via plain text email. Especially not with Yahoo"

But what about all the lawyers I get using Yahoo email addresses with millions of dollars in accounts in Nigerian banks and security companies... are you telling me they're not real too? :-(

Steve Pugh - Thanks for pointing that out. I just rejoined the group.

The millions in Nigerian banks are just as fake. I don't know what else to say. I agree that this individual is clearly not a lawyer, and I think most Hollywood studios would be unlikely to sue over this as the money isn't there. Also they don't have a competeing line of items they want to sell, which is the problem that FASA ran into with Harmony Gold and Galoob.

So while we're listing conspercy theories on this. This persons is basically blackmailing these companies with these threats. Can any one think of some one that has anything to benifit from the disconntinued production of these minies?

I'm not intending this to end as a flame, but could this be the behavior of an angery GW fan boy?

I go away for a day or so and I miss so much.

First off, that email is ridiculous, obviously some juvenile twit spouting off about things he knows nothing about. Is this the email that MJ received? If so why would they pull their products? I don't see where this individual (or individuals) is claiming to be a lawyer, or from mongoose, but even if they were making such a claim, no sane person should accept this at face value.

Before this farce surfaced we were posting questions to the Stargate gamers group, directed at MJ, trying to figure out what happened to their site when it was down for over a week. Debra responded to the group and let everyone know what was going on, and that "the suits got them". Then several days later this email appeared. Based on the time-line here it seems that some kid (yes I'm guessing it's a kid) read all of those posts and decided to mess with the moderator, and members (I received a similar email, regarding a message I posted to Steve at monolith). There was nothing in the Stargate group that would have justified it being shut down (and it hasn't been), as discussion is freedom of speech.

I emailed Bill (the editor) about the posts MJ, and Eureka had made (Eureka posted to the group announcing that they had pulled the Sci-Fi Egyptians) so that he could put on his journalist's hat and find out what was going on. IMHO, this email is just the result of some delinquent's sick sense of humor, and should be ignored.

Sargonarhes- I doubt that this is blackmail, since the whole rant is basically "neah neah, you did something wrong and we told on you, and we'll do it again". No where does the fool that penned this nonsense demand money (or even product) in exchange for silence.

and I don't think any of this would even come to the attention of a real fan boy, as they are usually obsessively focused on all things GW, to the point of ignoring most other games and companies.

"The millions in Nigerian banks are just as fake"

You're kidding! ;-)

"Can any one think of some one that has anything to benifit from the disconntinued production of these minies?"

Nope, sheer entertainment, like the kid who breaks the ball so no-one else can play with it.

The RUMOUR is that "a certain games company (no, they wont say who) is negotiating a Stargate licence and that the recent reporting on lookalike cottage industry product has been done to clear the way for this. There are also negotiations in progress for AvP, Terminator and Predator rights too... The company responsible seems to be employing one or more individuals who joined the groups to acquire info and run spoiling tactics on everyone else, including fan sites, fan fiction etc."

Personally, the longer this goes on, teh more it looks like someone's idea of a joke taken to an extreme

No, the Nigerian money is real. The minister assures me my share will be deposited in my bank account any day now. ;)

On the Stargate Yahoo group MJ miniatures said they received a four page legal document telling them to cease and desist. In another post they said they were seeking legal counsel. The whole thing is pretty sad in my opinion. Maybe someone will get the contract and we can have some miniatures.

Well - if they (MJ miniatures) received a four page legal document - then it should have the names of the law firm who sent it, their address, telephone number, where they are licensed to practice, and who they represent in the document. If it is anything official, they should seek legal counsel. As for the crap they are getting on email - ignore it. Email is prone to abuse. As for the alleged document, it should have come with a certified mail return receipt requested. Otherwise it too could be just another attempt by someone to scare off businesses from producing something that no one else is making. Including any IP holder.

Whether the e mail is correct or not or who did this was a real
lawyer working for MGM or just some juvenile causing havoc. Even if
any of the company's have infringed on the Stargate IP rights.
You have to admit that the figures that were released by MJ and
Eureka did have a very nice look to them.

If MGM could not see this as a potential wargame from the
license after a movie 10 years ago and 8 hit seasons of the
program (and spin off) then they should expect small companies
to take advantage and produce figures of the iconagraphy of the
series. If they can get DVD's, trading cards and comics done
and no wargame then someone made a large mistake a long time ago.

The loss of these figures has definetly annoyed a lot of people (me included).
I for one has been trying to build a army for 40k and have been purchasing
troops from both companies to build units (very resonably) and they do look great.
These ranges have got me both back into painting and wargaming after a 4 year
break while at uni.

Hopefully eureka and MJ will be back in production soon and we
can get building great armys.

Thanks

Darryl

PS Sorry for the length this was my first ever post to this great website

and for those too lazy to visit monolith designs site i bring you apes with guns.........

picture

"On the Stargate Yahoo group MJ miniatures said they received a four page legal document telling them to cease and desist. In another post they said they were seeking legal counsel."

Well that certainly doesn't sound like this email, a four page legal document sounds more official, and likely to have originated with actual lawyers. Again, I think that this twit was following the posts on the Stargate group, and decided to play some sick game.

If these people were actually doing as they said, sending copies of actual products to Stargate's lawyers, then both MJ and monolith should compare notes and figure out which customers that they have in common, who have purchased "Stargate" products.

I'd like to see all of the emails and related headers. If this is indeed a harassment campaign I'm assuming there are many emails and I'd be able to track the person down. The email I received was very mild compared to this one, and appeared to originate from a closed, or nonexistent Yahoo account.

As for getting a subpoena for this persons account, good luck. Based on this email there is no cause. Unless the sender makes false statements i.e. "I am from Mongoose", or actual threats "I will hurt you", or "I intend to do you harm", it's unlikely that such a thing would occur.

As for slander/libel, I can't remember which refers to written statements, the comapnies in question would have a very hard time arguing that, especially as Debra from MJ, and Eureka had both previously posted that there were issues.

Impudent bragging that one has "narced" on another is just that, impudent but not illegal. Again, if the other emails contain such language I'd love to track this person down, if only to have their ISP cancel their service. Then they can explain that to mom and dad.

theramin- Thanks for the link, are those the same minis eureka was selling? Now I see why those minis got yanked as well.

Darhou, you lose 10 points for playing the old "Reluctant Megacorp" card. Because a company chooses not to, or inexplicably fails to spot the massive wargaming industry, doesn't give you or anyone else the right to make a little money out of their idea. Sheesh!

Tolkein's Estate didn't get a film made for many years, apart from the animated Bakshi unfinished piece. Do you think Peter Jackson could say, mmm, they haven't seen this big opportunity. I'll make it for myself!

No. Get the net!

I can't wait until someone far smarter than I figures out the stupid little twit behind this and exposes him on TMP and other groups. I'll wager it's someone who has posted here at one time or another. It's only a matter of time.

Comedy

You cant be sued for makeing a likeness if it is for comedy purposes.

Call the figs 'Starbowl' figs

Have them flushed through a giant dunny to strange and amusing adventures on uncharted planets.

Equip a few figs with one of those suction cups on a stick and call it their interdemensional key to the starbowl system. (have it so it can be clipped off by 'purists')

Then sit back and laugh at the empty threats.

You can copy it if your taking the out of it.

Now I have solved the entire issue for all time, send me SG figs as a sign of your eternal gratitude and allow me to sail off into the sunset.

Some speculation: the SG-1 folks are not entirely ignorant of the power of gamer money. AEG is currently producing an SG-1 RPG, so I think it's reasonable to assume that somebody's got plans for some official SG-1 minis. Whether we'll actually see them is another question.

Personally, I thought it was only a matter of time before we started seeing the lawyers come out on this one.

Scurvy --

You remind me of how my friends used to refer to the Time Tunnel: the Time Toilet.

At least one can be fairly certain AEG won't be coming out with miniatures. They've been down that road before.

Allen

Scurvy

I am lucky I wasn't taking a swig of soda when I read that.

Allen --

I, too, would be surprised if AEG does the minis. But that doesn't mean that somebody didn't say in a meeting somewhere, "Y'know, D&D has minis. An RPG should have minis."

Given that Reaper is producing the L5R minis, it's possible that AEG and/or SciFi are thinking of bringing in a minis manufacturer as a partner.

But again, I'm just speculating. (And with the barest of facts.)

Now, I have read about historic minis not falling under this thread, but, a Alexander mini that looks like Collin Farrell is not going to get you problems? or like Brad Pitt as Aquiles?

It is only reasonable for those mini companies who have received the "fake" legal threats to act with caution.
They are themselves in the business of making a profit even if they are gamers themselves and they would be foolish in the extreme to continue to merrily produce figures when there is a possibility that they will be simply lining the pockets of their own and a studios lawyers.
I have no particular interest in this particular range but I have an interest in companies like Eureka staying in business so that they can continue to produce the figures I am very interested in.
The bottom line in this situation is how much money is actually at stake.

How much money will the owners of the Stargate "rights" stand to make from an officially sanctioned range with the quality controls in place to protect their brand. My suggestion would be for Eureka (et. al ) to use this as an opportunity to negotiate rights to make official figures. Any licensing fee would need to reflect the potential profits to be made- there is no point in demanding millions when demand is likely to be relatively limited. The potential target market for the burger related kids products is huge when compared to a much more specific sci-fi figure range so of course the licencing fees are that much grater. It might even be possible to get the owner to assist with set up costs for such a range or to pay a small up front fee and a bigger percentage of any profits.
Even better it might be possible for some of the very talented sculptors to design completly new figures for the range which then appear in the tv show- I,m no expert on IP but a brand new figure/planet never featured in a Stargate episode cant be subject to the same restrictions can it?
So Nic at Eureka... get on that phone and use this opportunity

"Now, I have read about historic minis not falling under this thread, but, a Alexander mini that looks like Collin Farrell is not going to get you problems? or like Brad Pitt as Aquiles?"

What I understand is that you cannot use the likeness of an actor without permission. So, if you made a mini that looked enough like Brad Pitt to be recognizable as him, you'd be legally in the wrong.

This is why you don't see cheesy Disney products.
What about all those crappy toys you get from MacDonalds Happy Meals? ;-)

Darhou - glad you made your first post and welcome.

blimey, my first post at the start of this thread came true(this will run and run), which means I was right about something - I think I'd better go and lie down in a dark room now....

"if you made a mini that looked enough like Brad Pitt to be recognizable as him, you'd be legally in the wrong."

So if Hollywood ever finds a short action hero with hands as big as his head, we're all screwed.

I heard the New York Stock Exchange plummetted today over this...

"I heard the New York Stock Exchange plummetted today over this..."

Actually, it's been down since soldat was delayed.

Kidding BME, just kidding!

Quote
"So if Hollywood ever finds a short action hero with hands as big as his head, we're all screwed"

Do you mean Bruce Willis? ;)

I was thinking Robert Conrad, so the IP has already lapsed for lack of enforcement!

No no no. The emails about offshore accounts and winning a million dollars are real. Just like the ones that want to sell you completely legal drugs and software.

Sorry, I mean D r uG Z and S_of7 Wa REzs CHEP!

rmaker-"To whoever it was that asked about whether a miniatures line has ever been blocked by a film company, the answer is yes. I can't remember which movie it was, but back in the '70's, Martian Metals advertised a new line based on it. The film company got an injunction within days of the ad appearing."

I don’t remember that, but I do recall that MM had a Dragonslayer line in production. When the movie Dragonslayer was about to come out, they discovered that this little minis company had the rights to the name. I recall that they had to pay a licensing fee to MM in order to use that name. A rare case of the little guy benefiting from the huge guy.

10thFoot - Didn't Disney come rather unstuck onthe IP thing when they tried to stop the Shrek people (can't remember which studio it is) using various fairy story characters (Snow White, Pinochio etc). It was something to do with the characters having existed well before Disney made their movies, and no doubt the drawing in Shrek have very subtle differences, or its because its all comedy stuff like Scurvy said.