"Mongoose Denies Link to Harassment Campaign" Topic

This is going to run and run methinks. It's a shame that big companies won't let people use the IP rights - especially for these smaller companies trying to meet a demand. Perhaps if the figures were not as accurate it might help - I mean GW have used Aliens sorry Genestealers for years, and we all know where the 'inspiration' came from (alongside most of their and other companies ranges). It seems bigger companies are not such easy targets for the IP lynch mob.I smell a rat in all this and wouldn't be surprised if someone soon brings out an 'official range' of these figures.
Quick, here they come with their torches,pitchforks and nooses, I'm off before I get hung,drawn and quartered! ;-)

The Email sounds more like its from some teenagers out to be spiteful as the wording is very junvinile,hope we get some resolution on this because it can be harmful to the hobby.

It certainly is not written in "Lawyer Speak", I would imagine that MJ are just waiting to see if anything official happens before resuming sales of their stuff.

I am sure that the IP holders of these products must be aware of them, it is not like they are selling them from the back of a van at a car-boot sale.

It is probably just that they are such small fish in a big ocean, as long as their are no official ranges I doubt if the IP owners are too worried.

I have to wonder if this is connected to the people who seemed to rather enjoy pointing fingers, making accusations, and snarking at the people who got upset here, all while carefully toeing the line to stay out of the dawghouse, here at TMP.

IP vigilantes.

What a stupid concept.

- Monk

One point there are no more apes with guns that graced our tables anymore ????? And if your going to come the big idiots all that you will do is make a LOT of wargamers and collectors very mad and its a small hobby, so in the end the truth will come out and loyalty to any company is not given out on a plate and once you lose your supporters you will NEVER get them back. And copy all the products and have the thought police get anyone or anything, and in the end they will come for you.

Tony

Shadow King:

Check out Graven Images from Monolith, they have "Apes with Guns".

Is Newline going to drag all producers of Halflings and Orcs to court too?

The people who been carrying out this harrasment don't seem to have targeted the companies that make miniatures that look somewhat like Starship Trooper and 2000 AD (i.e. the licenses that Mongoose actually hold), except coincidentally where those companies also make miniatures that look somewhat like SG1 miniatures. So it doesn't seem at all likely that Mongoose would be behind this.

It does seem that someone is trying to get a SG1 minis license. I wonder if they have a "younger brother"?

Anyway, I'm not really convinced by 'lawyers' sending dyslectic letters through e-mail!

Well written, black on white, delivered at the door would be more professional?

It would be slightly funny if Foundry got a letter about their "B Team" minis.

I think Mongoose are being linked to this because they did report a garage kit company making Starship Troopers CGI minis to Sony (who make the CGI cartoon). But, yeah, since they don't hold licences to SG1 or AvP (someone makes an SG1 RPG, and Treehouse-Kids, I think, make 54mm Aliens figures, so the licencesare already gone), it seems wierd to blame them.

It may be only a matter of time before the big companies tread on this. Small change to them it may be, but it also sets a precedent - one they may not wish to be set.

Personally I think the Egyptian ministry of Heritage (or whatever) should sue SG1 - just to complete the circle.

Maybe this old topic has clues.

The I.P. P.I.

I think that real lawyers often have a better grasp of spelling and grammar than the Yahoo posting mentioned, so I doubt this is a serious threat.

"it seems wierd to blame them.(Mongoose)"

No one is blaming them. Especially not the Yahoo Groups concerned.

No, Mongoose were asked if the emails and complaints came from them because the person sending the complaint emails to the Starship Troopers Gamers Yahoo site was pretending to be associated with them along with others "defending their IP rights" for them.

As Mongoose have said, there is no way as a reputable company they would have anything to do with this garbage.

Seems a lot of it is just pure malice from one or two idiots regarding the attacks on the groups themselves.

I'd have to agree that between the poor spelling and colloquial language ("bust them"?) either the exams for law school have plummeted or this is a group of people looking to shake a few trees, create some news on some modelling websites, etc.

If they were attorneys, they'd post their names and addresses, which would be readily verifiable. The attorney my office deals with has all that information with every email she sends. After all, it's against the law in the US to pose as an attorney and not be one.

Witt

I agree with the general feelings that this e-mail is not from a lawyer, and appears very juvenile in conveying it's message. I think this is honestly just a hoax or harassment and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Joe

Acidarchie

why would it have to be 'teenagers'
not all those under 20 are out to cause trouble and to be fair it would be a bit of aboring way to do it...seems more of an adult way to get kicks.

The sad news resulting from all this is that Eureka are apparently discontinuing their SF Egyptians and Apes with Guns and as Jon at GZG advised me on Saturday, GZG will no longer be able to produce them under licence in the UK...

Steve

ps. IIRC there was an April 1st sppof about military units and their IP/Copyright. Ironically I picked up a copy of the RAF magazine to find that the RAF have licensed themselves to prevent the production of unlicensed RAF merchandise - stop the world I want to get off...

The sudden gaps in the Eureka range are quite saddening :(

Including the 100 Club and stuff I had on pre-order :(

It is interesting that with over twenty posts so far, not one person has indicated that although the delivery and medium of the email was clearly not from a lawyer, that their message is correct.

IP is a serious issue. It carries large penalties. Why? Because companies and individuals have a right to protect their creations.

I ask you this, if you (through your hobby or business) created some huge money spinner, or even a little one, would you be happy for others to take advantage? And not taking advantage of it (through a current official range of figures) does not somehow make the IP public domain!

I acknowledge that you may not subscribe to the whole ownership/copyright/patent environment, or indeed capitalism for whatever reason, and you may choose to give your valuable product away. Your choice. The law is there to protect (or try to protect) those that do not wish to.

As for the RAF setting up licences, good for them. In these days where even the local school has to raise cash somehow, I understand this stance and endorse it.

I'm curious about the Apes with Guns. Is it that they look like the "Planet of the Apes" apes, or is the concept of modelling an ape with a gun, the problem?

Again I'd assume the problem with the SF Egyptians must be that the appear similar to those in a certain film and series?

As far as I am aware, Eureka have taken the sensible solution of temporarily suspending the production until such time as the matter is resolve. Hopefully this will all prove to be a spiteful hoax and normal service will be resumed as soon as posible.

However, we should also bear in mind that, just because we want the minis from certain films, this does not give manufacturers the right to produce them. The fact that the companies owning the copyright choose not to demand licences is at their discretion...

Bugger, my "WarSpanner" and "Fires of War" systems were gonna be million$$$ ideas...

"Bugger, my "WarSpanner" and "Fires of War" systems were gonna be million$$$ ideas..."

They still could be for the people sueing you... :)

Sorry to say it but we share a hobby where anything which works is fair game. Unless of course you have the clout of a GW, and even then one wonders why they have not cleaned up the mid-west piracy thing?

In our time we (Ainsty)have innovated, introducing a number of new products which met a gap in the market. I could list half a dozen of our ranges which have subsequently been copied when seen to be successful. In one case my personal view is that one of our ranges has flaws and these flaws have been copied! We see three ways of dealing with the problem (not going to list them) and have used all three.

We have a product which could be said to infringe the copyright of a media company. Before going into production we sought legal advice and have subsequently followed that advice. Interesting that all the makers of 'suspended' models don't seem to have covered their backs. Or, maybe the restrictions would prove to make the products no longer viable.

Cheers

Mike

"I'm curious about the Apes with Guns. Is it that they look like the "Planet of the Apes" apes, or is the concept of modelling an ape with a gun, the problem?"

An ape is not copyrighted, neither is a horse or a gun. However when you stand them together (horse optional) wearing a very similar pattern uniform to that used in a certain film they are undeniably a reproduction or intent to reproduce the imagery from the film.

The film is not factual (eg historical) therefore you cannot claim you are merely reproducing something that historically existed. By selling this product you are then making a financial gain from somebody else's image.

I think, if it was brought up in front of a court, you would have a hard time arguing that the Apes and Sci-Fi Egyptians were not copies of the images created for and seen in the film and series.

This is, of course, all theoretical, unless someone actually knows of an example where a film company hs actually prevented a miniatures manufacturer from producing an unlicensed mini...?

Has anyone thought to trace the E-mails back to the source? There is no such thing as anonymity on the internet. It should be easy to find a person and question them to see if they are legit or not and take action depending.

"An ape is not copyrighted, neither is a horse or a gun. However when you stand them together (horse optional) wearing a very similar pattern uniform to that used in a certain film they are undeniably a reproduction or intent to reproduce the imagery from the film."

An ape with a gun cannot be copyrighted. It would have to be an identical copy of the companies artwork/filmwork. I haven't seen the figure in question. Also, the star gate/wormhole idea cannot be copyrighted. Sorry, I'm sure about that. Unless of course Sci-Fi channel is gonna sue Carl Sagan and the makers of the movie Contact.

Now, those other star gate figures look like they are over the line. I think Fasa and Galoob fought this out in court. Google the case. It will give you a broader idea as to what you are allowed to do.

Enough comment has been made about the un-lawyerlike content of the e-mail that I don't have to add any more.

However, I have to agree 100% with 10thFoot and GeoffQRF about IP and copyright. If a TMP'er created a new genre or line of figures that was subsequently copied or counterfeited the howls of protest on this site would blow Bill out of his chair.

There seems to be a feeling that the "big guys" a) can afford to lose money where their property is concerned and b) should overlook such violations because our hobby is such a niche market. Little consideration is given to the efforts and income of the artists, sculptors, editors etc. just so long as cheap (i.e. nearly free) minis and games can be had, in the genres that we want.

We're a pretty petulant lot at times.

The badly written e-mails are in themselves really only an annoyance - the real worry is the fact that the people who have written these e-mails have been sending 'evidence' to MGM's (and maybe other) legal department. That's where the proper cease and desist orders are coming/will come from.

"An ape with a gun cannot be copyrighted. It would have to be an identical copy of the companies artwork/filmwork. I haven't seen the figure in question."

It doesn't need to be identical. It just needs to be close enough. I think in the past that some courts have applied a 'can a reasonable person mistake it for the real thing' type of criterion. All the IP holder needs is a reasonable chance of winning the case - they then issue a cease and desist order and the small company complies (or fights a costly court case).

"Also, the star gate/wormhole idea cannot be copyrighted. Sorry, I'm sure about that. Unless of course Sci-Fi channel is gonna sue Carl Sagan and the makers of the movie Contact."

Yes, but that's totally irrelevant. The infringements in questions are inspired by/copies of the actual costumes and props from the TV series. A square wormhole portal model wouldn't be a problem - a round one with chevrons, astronomical symbols and egyptian styling is.

It's those Greek lawyers again.

IP is not an all or nothing thing.
No one is copying films and selling dodgy DVDs, all they are doing is creating their own range of figures, casting them and selling them, ie. working for a living.
To call these people pirates or thieves is out of order.
To think that if I have some dumb and unoriginal idea; eg. remake a '70s TV show as a movie or dress up as ancient Egyptians (like the Bangles!), to then think that I own something, and can threaten others for infringing my rights, is ridiculous.
Big corporations (or small ones for that matter) who throw their weight around are bullies and should be treated as such (I am not refering to any particular company).

Mark

Mark's right. Doing apes or egyptians with guns or round warpgates shouldn't be a problem, unless you very closely copy someone elses version of this concept. IP is all very well, but it shouldn't get out of hand like it's now threatening to become. Also, I sometimes wonder at the level of support for big companies from gamers. There's no reason to cheer or justify their every move. What is good for big business is not always good for the hobby.

[to stay out of the dawghouse]

Can't be me, then. :)

MJ is "gonna get taken down soon"?? Methinks he sounds more like a wise guy-wannabe than a lawyer type.

Its a shaky business practice to generate products that 'skirt' along
existing IP - especially hollywood properties, withouth having
a lawyer ready to go OR an actual license to produce.

The emails don't seem to be legit, but the message is. If you
are going this for profit and you have even the potential to get
yourself in trouble, you need to audit your lines and thing REALLY
hard about what you are doing.

I spent the better part of the last two decades at places like Disney,
Lucasfilm, Paramount and other studios. They are serious about
this stuff. You don't hear about a lot of cases as many are
settled out of court with the losing violator basically buying what
reputation they coulod hold on to. You should see the legal hoops
we have to jump through just to have a chartacter drive a specific
brand/type of car!

The flip side of this is that TMPs coverage of the email reads like
a shopping list for some lawyer that wants to go after IP violations
as this site is a google search engine nexus.

--
Gregg
Strange Cargo Games
http://www.strangecargogames.com

"You may want to warn your thief freinds that we all attend shows... especially in the U.K. so if they try to sell the ripoffs there...we'll buy and bust them..."

So, if I understand this right, in the end, whoever is responsible for this email is threatening these companies with commerce? What you do with the stuff after you buy it is your business...

Ha HA!

Now all those SG-ish minis are collectible. We're sitting on a Goldmine!

who says you can't turn Lead into Gold! err, (pewtery metal into gold)

But actually companies HAVE to defend their IP or they lose it. If A TV show could be shown to have heard about a knockoff and NOT gone after them, it limits their ability to take action in the future.

But speaking of Hollywood and IP, there seems ot be a amjor suit going on where some writer pitched and idea, and it got ripped off. But it seems the track of the idea is good enough that this may actually bring about some serious changes to the H Wood (standard) practive of stealing people's good ideas and crediting them to assistant producers.

Now to go fight some idiot who copied stuff out of one of my books and is posting on the web.....

“all they are doing is creating their own range of figures, casting them and selling them, ie. working for a living”

The problem comes in when they steal this idea from someone else who is trying to earn a living. Stealing an idea is still stealing. In the end you are a thief.

What is good for this hobby really doesn’t matter. Your opinion that protecting IP rights is going too far is great but worthless in court.

PJ

As for this emailed crap – no lawyer would send this, get real, the legal letter would have to be a registered piece of mail that had to be signed for and fully tracked so that it could hold up in court.

PJ

"...great but worthless in court."

I don't want to comment whether something is just a rip-off or simply 'based on'. The fact is IMHO that most miniature companies (except GW) can't afford lawyers, so if a big company threatens them they simply fold, irrespective of whether they are right or not.

On a similar note, most miniature companies are just too small to be taken seriously by a big company to even be considered for a license.

Frits

This is just a couple of asshats trying to stop other people from having fun. Real lawyers don't send letters like this through e-mail. People should start posting the IP addresses of yahoo group posters and e-mail headers, we'd track these idiots down really quick.

How expensive is getting the rights to produce miniatures of a specific show, such as stargate, star trek, ect?

I would think that the owners would want their ideas produced in miniature. More exposure. If I ever had an original idea (or thought, for that matter) I would let a miniature game manufacturer produce a game version of it pretty cheap.

Vespasian, I repeat my point. How can you justify earning a living from someone else's creation, and more importantly a creation that has gained great punblic awareness and acclaim?

Thank you StrangeCargo, I thought I was alone on a mad planet.

Heh, I figure that if the Big Wigs arent going to produce anything with their rights, anyone else should be able to as logn as it is unofficial and no actual copyrighted terms or names are used.

That e-mail was most definately NOT written by someone with a lawyer's degree or something... Waving threats around like that in public is childish, especially on a wargaming Yahoo group. Sounds to me more like some sort of defamation...

Arrrrrg, they can name their price and it comes from lengthy negotiantions and legal agreements. Sometimes it is reasonable, but we are usually talking thousands. This takes it outside of most companies' range, so they either opt out, or make them on the quiet. Of course many don't ask....

What is more important to the licence holder is that their product and brand is not diluted or compromised. This means that they should insist that products are made to a high standard, so as to preserve the integrity of the brand. This is why you don't see cheesy Disney products. They want anything with their name on it, or portraying their image, to be quality stuff. There are also pricing issues - too low a price is again a bad thing.

The logical extension of this is that some IP holders may not wish to see a product AT ALL if it is seen to have a negative impact on the brand. So perhaps the miniatures gaming hobby and all that suggests may not be something they want any part of.

Andy Cowell, this is not about fun it is about the above, and lost revenues.

The Stargate Gamers Yahoo group is now gone. What a shame.

Hello? People? Have you read the e-mail in question?

Nowhere does the author claim to be a laywer. He says that he's been reporting people _to_ MGM's lawyers.

This whole 'he doesn't sound like a lawyer' is a red herring. The actual lawyers will do whatever they do with the information provided by this nark.