"Warmachine & Hordes Price Increase [UK]" Topic

Price increase!?

:(

Sad, but not really surprising.

They already seemed pricey to begin with so I wasn't buying any of them new anyway.

Thank goodness my purchasing went only as far as the rulebook!

32 pounds are about 65 dollars, right?

Does that mean an American (our continent, people) price rise is coming, too?

I mean, the boxes went from 40-45 to 50 bucks almost a year ago (that nails the coffin for that silly "no price rise for 5 years" they put on the statement).

Are we going to see the boxes go to an overtly absurd and unreasonable price?

I mean, they are overpriced as they are now.

For some perspective, tin, which comprises 90+% of the content of pewter, is currently trading at approx $6.80/lb. Currently, tin is neither mined nor smelted in large scale in the US. Primary suppliers are Peru and China. Add in the markup to buy from the metal trader, as well as shipping costs. And this is just raw material.

What they said was "Most of the miniatures haven't seen a price increase in 5 years". Depending on what the work most means their statement is true though misleading.

I like the game but have been unable to get my fellow club members interested. Looks like it will be impossible now.

"work" was supposed to be "word".

"32 pounds are about 65 dollars, right?

Does that mean an American (our continent, people) price rise is coming, too?"
No. The US had their prices increased last year. Also, you can't simply compare prices like that across the atlantic. How much VAT do you pay, frex?

"I mean, the boxes went from 40-45 to 50 bucks almost a year ago (that nails the coffin for that silly "no price rise for 5 years" they put on the statement)."
That was in the US only, IIRC. The article speaks from a UK perspective, where the price on the early stuff hasn't changed since first release.

A ~10% price increase over 5 years does not seem unreasonable to me, considering the state of the economy, and I am once again astounded by the prevailing attitude of stinginess on this site. Am I the only guy here with a job and a hobby budget? Is everyone else painting their stuff so fast they need to hit the discount bin to keep up with the shopping?

Warmachine figures have always been pretty pricey compared to other miniature products. It is this high price point compared to many other companies that has stopped me buying their miniature products (despite owning their rpgs). I'd love to buy some of their figures, but at $10-12 AU each I'll pass and buy some Perry's instead (about $3 USD AU each). Many miniature companies use the increasing price of tin as an excuse to raise prices, but given the mark up is so high in the first place I find this hard to believe with some companies.

but then again you don't need many minis to make for a cracking game…

Once Warmachine added troopers, the price of the game really went up. The original box sets seemed like major bagains compared to what you have to pay now. IMO the game is going to be doomed if they keep raising the prices regardless of how much tin costs.

"Warmachine figures have always been pretty pricey compared to other miniature products."

Compared to which other miniature products? A quick looking-over of the wargamesworkshop site showed that PrivateerPress miniatures cost exactly the same as Games Workshop and Rackham miniatures, and slightly more than the, IMSO lower quality, Urban Mammoth and Wargods lines of miniatures. This is comparing no-frills basic pewter character models, BTW.

Comparisons with Perry's miniatures is not apples-to-apples. They're not even the same scale!

"IMO the game is going to be doomed if they keep raising the prices regardless of how much tin costs."
Doomed like Rackham's and GW's games? I think they can live with that.

I pay 15% IVA which is Spanish for VAT (in Mexico BESIDES customes), which is obvious you had no clue about, "frex". So stop shooting from the arse, will you?

Now, to add to your faulted math, starter boxes went from 40 dollars to 50. That's not "aprox. 10%" as you stated, it's 25% so preach or recovene me not until you have your math right.

When I compare prices, I know what I'm doing so move aside and stop acting like nothing but a fanboy with the money to spare. So, there, I'm done dealing with you, Temujin, dear "frex"

Now, to the rest of the participants here: The whole point o my statement is the price range for the product is way off the mark as people in the U.K. have to pay a really huge mark up (the equivalent of 15 bucks more) to have the things in the first place.

This is likely to hit them rather hard, in terms of sale beacuse we all know tin will never go back to the prices it had a year ago, and will only go up.

I guess the "we put more metal into it than anybody else" and "go play with something made out of plastic" bravado/slogans will have to change if they want to be on the par with their competition, or their customer base will drop even more rapidly.

Oh, and I forgot one thing: Temujin i have ajob that pays very well, I own my PR company.

I just not an idiot who gives away his money because he has a hobby budget.

Your "stinginess" is other people's "shopping smart", so hold back with your remarks or some may take offense.

"Am I the only guy here with a job and a hobby budget?"

Do you have a mortgage, home maintenance, car payments, kids? Do you even support yourself? Maybe you make more money than the rest of us.

Whatever your fortunate situation is, your statement is out of line.

Not really out of line.

the miniatures hobby is…a hobby. It's not a requirement for getting through life, it's not an inexpensive pastime.

It does come down to budgeting/saving/prioritizing.

Maybe it'll take a player 3 months instead of 1 week to save up for model(s), but it can be done.

I have all of the above, don't make a ton of money, yet find the cash for the hobby if I choose to. "Saving up for" seems to be a dirty little phrase in our hobby. It's the hobby of instant gratification and God forbid someone has to wait a few weeks to buy the shiny new toy they wanted.

I can't believe people get all up in arms when prices go up. The companies need to make money. Imports always cost more. I'm not really liking the fact that Hell Dorado starters cost upwards of $60+ dollars in the US, but it's the price they charge, so if I want to play I deal with it.

(eyeroll)

Overpriced is subjective, and based on the buyer's perceived value for the items.

I don't think WM or HORDES is overpriced as much as other figs I see on this site. Mostly it's UK/European company products that don't even get close to the quality of the PP minis, but people are willing to pay through the nose for because it fits niche X. That's fine, but throwing 'overpriced' at things is simply a relative statement based on one's own experiences.

"…so if I want to play I deal with it."

Yet, for every one who deals with it, there will likely be one who says, "this is too much, there are other products for the money." You may have plenty of discretionary income and a desire to play, but does that mean everyone in your gaming group does?

That's the danger, not that EVERYONE will be chased off, but that ENOUGH people will be chased off to make finding players difficult – and THAT is what can kill a game.

However, GW and Rackham have lasted long enough (the one through compulsive aggressive marketing and the other through the distinction of their sculpts and forming their own fringe of fans), so Privateer isn't necessarily doomed, but they will have to be sure that enough people still find them desirable.

"Overpriced is subjective, and based on the buyer's perceived value for the items."

The miniatures market is very dynamic, however. The Internet has allowed the relative success of a number of smaller operations – for example Hasslefree, Heresy, Freebooter, Wyrd, and others – that might have died unnoticed only fifteen years ago. In the mid to late 80's, many gamers may not have known that anyone besides GW and Ral Partha even existed. I didn't know anything about Grenadier until they folded and their products became collector's treasures, and I didn't even know that I owned a RAFM figure until someone pointed out that the Reaction Marines I had acquired in a trade were theirs.

The point is that with so many options, perceived value is affected. I may like the latest figure from one company, but if I'm on a budget, fifteen minutes of websearches will let me know of 20 other new releases to compete with my dollar, items I would never have even suspected existed if I had no Internet access. The new Viktoria, Bounty Hunter from Wyrd looks great, but by the time I get paid tomorrow, there will probably be another new figure to attract my attention and my meager budget. If a company like Privateer, as good as they are, becomes identified with price increases, whether or not exaggeration is involved, the impulse buyer may look elsewhere first and the dedicated player may wonder if perhaps another company may make suitable figures.

GW beats this rap only by their massive marketing towards the young and clueless, and Rackham's sculpts are still distinctive enough to make them instantly recognizable, but those things can change.

Thanks for summing up: "It's the hobby of instant gratification and God forbid someone has to wait a few weeks to buy the shiny new toy they wanted."

;)

You're right, there's 20 different directions people can spend their gaming dollars. it's up to the individual to decide how they want to. That's the razor's edge each company has to balance – staying in business/making money with keeping their customers happy. I don't envy them, especially when the internet can turn a warranted increase due to the cost of production increasing into a OH NOES, PP R TEH GOUGERS!

Pontifex wrote:

"GW beats this rap only by their massive marketing towards the young and clueless,"

Rather judgemental, don't you think? I am hardly a "clueless" consumer. I bought 2 squads of Elysian Drop Troops from Foregworld because I liked them. I knew they were upwards of $8-9 a model, but I had the extra money budgeted and I purchased the minis.

Not every hobbyist needs to be penurious in order to be considered a "savvy" consumer. In other words, don't look down on folks who are willing to pay more than you for a product.

Scott

Scott

"It's the hobby of instant gratification and God forbid someone has to wait a few weeks to buy the shiny new toy they wanted."
Bizarre that….
We must have the new shiny NOW, and cannot stand having to wait for it, or God forbid, save for it, but, once bought it dissappears into the stockpile for months, if not years.

Even if it does see immediate use, the contradiction remains:
Buy !NOW!, and then: cleanup and prep: minutes to hours (dependant on item), painting: hours to days(dependant on desire, skill and patience), and after that the model will be first used/deemed finished. Hardly "instant" is it…

But back to topic, it really isn't that bad: At least our response to PP announcing a price raise is still one of shock and surprise. As compared to GW, where the response is usually something along the lines of "Gee, have another six months passed already? Time sure does fly" or "Annual? The years do get shorter and shorter these days…"
;P

Bye, Modhail.
Honorary member of the 21st Volunteer Gougees. "caniculaque et queritor"

Ah, heck, I don't like the casting quality of their products anyway…

What gets me about threads on this site is the number of people who weigh in on topics who don't play the game/buy the minis, whatever. And of course, everyone knows what they're talking about here because it's their opinion, however well or ill informed it is, and a person's subjective opinion can't be wrong. And people don't even generalize from particulars here, which is – regardless of my opinions – an error. They particularize from the general. There is no snow because there is no snow in my town.

We need a forum where people can review the movies they haven't seen.

Welcome to the forum of "Doom and Gloom"

okeir, I play the damned game, so thanks for "generalizing" with you illustrious eye-opener.

Man… Throwing glass at rock houses…

I wasn't thinking of you particularly.

Though what you said was fairly pointless…lets see, you were saying that people in another country might get ed and not buy the minis and that you have money and that if someone here says something you don't like you might get upset. Is that about it?

And I don't believe that you know very much about "the damned game" at all, starting with the fact that there are three games, not one.

"Now, to add to your faulted math, starter boxes went from 40 dollars to 50. That's not "aprox. 10%" as you stated…"
I was talking about the price increases in the present announcement, not about something that happened a year ago on another continent.

"Now, to the rest of the participants here: The whole point o my statement is the price range for the product is way off the mark as people in the U.K."
And my point is that their price ranges are in line with their 2 largest competitors. PP has obviously decided not to compete on price, but quality, which I think is a smart move for a relatively new company trying to gain a share of an entrenched market. Getting into a price war with larger competitors is not smart.

"Do you have a mortgage, home maintenance, car payments, kids? Do you even support yourself? Maybe you make more money than the rest of us."
Aside from the kids, I have all those. I probably make more money than most of you, but I also pay 25% VAT on top of 51% income tax, so that doesn't say much about relative disposable income and buying power. It's very difficult to compare these things across borders.

I spend approx. 60-75$ on miniatures every month which is about the same as going to the gym for a month in these parts. This does not strike me as an outrageous amount. Compared to the money my friends and co-workers spend on their cars, scuba diving, skiing, rock climbing, golfing or horseback riding, this is pocket change. Heck, even the computer gamers spend more than that. The only hobby that seems cheaper to me is roleplaying, as those guys can get by with a few new books per year.

Mini-gaming is *not* an expensive hobby, all told. I can understand that a burger-flipping student may feel the sting when his favourite company increases the price by 10%, but to see financially succesful adults belly-aching about a few $$ just seems odd.

"your statement is out of line."
Good. Sometimes it's necessary to shake things up a bit.

Man, Okeir, you really can be dense.

I know they are three (even when the RPG is not 2minis intensive), I just play Warmachine and that should have been enough, but "hey!" be as "clever" with your comebacks as you want, my opinion is no good to you and you will try hard to make nothing of it by whatever means you see fit.

But of course, it's "my" faulted logic.

I swear you two guys make me feel like this is a playground discussion by the depth of your reasonings.

I don't like the casting quality of their products anyway

A puzzling statement, as I've never seen a piece from PP that obviously needed to go back in the melting pot. Some of their big multi-piece models have fit issues that may take work to resolve, and their design philosophy of "three pieces when one will do" can be a pain, but the actual casting is quite clean.

and slightly more than the, IMSO lower quality, Urban Mammoth and Wargods lines of miniatures.

Opinions vary, obviously. I'll take the Croc Sebeki over those aberrant smoothskins PP sells as "Gatormen" any day of the week. I buy the PP lines I do mostly because I'm playing the game, and the urge to sell them off again should the game fade is strong enough for me to consider. I need no such excuse to buy the Wargods minis, have many of them, and will likely never sell them. Void, by comparison, was hit-or-miss; Urban War/Metropolis has also been hit-or-miss. In both cases it's usually been subject matter, however, not sculpting quality (with a few exceptions) that kept me from buying something.

Jeez, Javier googled "Warmachine". Congratulations.

The guy who wrote this:

"I don't like the casting quality of their products anyway"

started the thread for God's sake! This is exactly what I'm saying, with so many people here talking about things they have absolutely no knowledge of or interest in. No one who has personally examined, modeled, or painted – or even played with decently modeled/painted – PP models could have a reasonable problem with the casting, but, hey, it's a subjectively expressed opinion, so what are you goin' to do?

I'm going to start a thread about the price of warrior miniatures. I've never seem one in person, I have no intention of ever buying one, heck I don't even give a damn whether they are cheap as chips or dear as diamonds. I've got something to say.

No one who has personally examined, modeled, or painted – or even played with decently modeled/painted – PP models could have a reasonable problem with the casting, but, hey, it's a subjectively expressed opinion, so what are you goin' to do?

Wrong, wrong, and wrong some more. I've got plenty of their minis, and I've assembled quite a few more as paid projects for other people, and they have some real problems. Their large models are often horrifically difficult to assemble, and claiming they're for "experienced modellers" is a lousy excuse for gaps as wide as my finger. That's bad work at the factory, and lousy quality control to boot. Further, many of their models are cast in two or three times as many pieces as really needed, which makes them fragile, fiddly to put together, and more expensive than they need to be. They're not alone in that (die, Rackham, die) but they could learn some lessons from the competition. In particular, Reaper's moldmaking department puts them to shame when it comes to figuring out how to minimize the number of fragments a green needs to be sectioned into.

So, yeah, despite your strident claims to the contrary, some of us who do play the game and build the minis have real issues with some of their work. The gaps on a Titan Gladiator and those assinine seperate spines on the Warpwolves aren't subjective at all.

That's not what he meant by "casting". And you're confusing design with casting. And just because you say something thrice doesn't make it true…have you no Carroll?

If you design is faulted, the casting will show it…

If a model has huge gaps on it, the casting is flawed because it supposed to FIT exactly. But I will concede a bit on that one. Maybe the cast piece is crisp, with little flash and good detail… Still it is not cast to fit where it need to.

That does talk about the moulder's, sculptor's and caster's skills, if you ask any of us who been here for more than 10 years straight.

And, just for the record, I had a few models being "less than good" in the Khador and Cryx arena, example at hand: Khador Doomreavers. what a pain to file the shoulder joints to a perfect semi-spherical form and then take out the excess metal from the arm's inner joints for two unit boxes. That's right 12 different figures from 2 different sources with this same problem, you ask me: THAT'S bad casting.

I have the Skorne Titans. The casting is excellent. The design requires that gaps be filled with putty/greenstuff.

I don't have the Doomreavers. It sounds again like a design issue as opposed to casting, but even then you can't generalize from one or two particulars. I'm not saying PP is perfect. I'm saying that there is a strong tendency here on TMP for people to talk about things they know nothing about. Mark Twain called it corn pone.

In this instance I know its happening because I know a fair bit about these miniatures because I have so many of them in my possession, i.e. 1000+ point armies of Khador, Cryx, Menoth, Skorne and Everblight. I also have a full army of proxied Circle from Primal with some from Evolution…the only PP Circle mini I have is the Extreme Warp Wolf. Why? I love the rules for Circle and will play them with my friends but I'll never buy the official minis, because I don't like the style of the miniatures. Their casting is fine though.

The other thing is you have to stop trying to pull rank. It adds nothing to your points. You don't actually win an argument by being an older, richer man, well, not unless you're a right-winger from South America or something like that but, leaving that aside, you don't have any idea how long anyone has been here. Why do you think I haven't been here for over ten years?

Because, for the most part, you read like a someone just barely out of his pre-teens who just loves ing. Here and on the PM.

That gave me a clue about you.

I see that you've gone full ad hominem.

And what is the PM? I expect it's some kind of chatroom where you pretend to be a pre-teen.