"Lone Wolf Apologizes" Topic

So I clicked on this thinking that Lone Wolf had made a classy move and I could feel all warm and fuzzy about them again….

then I read it…

and read it again…

then closed the window…

Then reopened the window and reread it two or three more times. Is it just me or it this an "I'm sorry your so stupid" apology? Maybe its just me, if so please feel free to tell me. I just can't escape the feeling he should have just stopped after the first line.

It should be "…you're so stupid…" – before the grammar Nazis show up.

Otherwise, I don't understand the Sturm and Drang behind this story.

Gracias,

Glenn

While I don't follow the Privateer Press forums, I did read the TMP post a few days ago, with Lone Wolf's explanation of what happened & that it actually wasn't a Cease & Desist letter.

But even with reading Lone Wolf's letter, I'm confused to what they're actually apologizing for? Did their request get misunderstood & blown out of proportion?

LOL.

Dan

From the full post (I encourage everyone to read it):

Referring to roster construction tools generally as "army builders" is improper, and if we fail to speak up about it, our trademark could become generic.

Eh? It's absolutely a generic term. I have no sympathy for companies that trademark generic terms and they deserve all the public ill will that can be hurled their way when they try to enforce their ridiculous trademark. I only wish PP had ignored the C&D and let it go to court (if LWD wished to push the issue).

I also think a company making software for other companies game systems without licensing is living in a glass house.

I thought the same thing. They take a generic term, like army builder, and expect to have total control over it. It's like tying to trademark Orders of Battle or After Action Report. Duh! We've been using that term for decades in the hobby! (I've been following these discussions, shaking my head.)

Is the guy from Lone Wolf a moron or just plain ignorant? I feel the same way Paintbeast felt. This guy just needs to shut up, step away from any keyboard, and hope his sales don't plummet in the short term. Unfortunately, it's too late for that.

"Is the guy from Lone Wolf a moron or just plain ignorant?"

Well, sending a letter regarding a legal issue without running it past one's attorney probably demonstrates--something: I would not care to speculate what that might be.

Allen

The shame of it is that the guy puts out a good tool. He just has no sense. I'm done with his "Army Builder".

I already got ticked off at him once when he wouldn't replace the v2 CD that physically fractured becuase he'd moved on to v3. However, like I said it's a good tool and over time I my anger abated; I bought v3. The licensing scheme is hideous. This year I upgraded my computers to Windows 7. That wiped out my AB so I had to reinstall. Fortunately, I still had active licenses so I was able to activate the installations. Hoever, had they been expired, I would have had to re-purchase the software.

Now this latest thing. I'm letting my licenses expire. I'm done with Lone Wolf and their products. There's nothing they do that I can't do with a spreadsheet or a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet.

As I asked over on TGN, why did it take Lone Wolf a decade to decide to suddenly go on an "IP protection and education" binge?

I've seen the term "army builder" used many, many times over the years since Army Builder was released. Why did it take this long for them to come to the conclusion that their IP was being violated?

CPBelt – you do realise that "Orders of Battle and After Action Report " are trademarks of 20thmaine&co

:-)

From the full post (I encourage everyone to read it):

Referring to roster construction tools generally as "army builders" is improper, and if we fail to speak up about it, our trademark could become generic.

Eh? It's absolutely a generic term. I have no sympathy for companies that trademark generic terms and they deserve all the public ill will that can be hurled their way when they try to enforce their ridiculous trademark. I only wish PP had ignored the C&D and let it go to court (if LWD wished to push the issue).

Correctamundo!

Naming your army builder program "Army Builder" is like naming your new lawn mower line "Lawn Mower".

"Is the guy from Lone Wolf a moron or just plain ignorant?"

Yes, on both counts.

I was inspired by this to put up some notes on how I make army lists in spreadsheets:

rocketshipgames.com/blog/?p=256

Nothing earth shattering, but there may be a couple tips with formulas and so on that people who spend less time in Excel or clones may not think of.

Well, I've been a long-time user of Army Builder software. It makes building army rosters and tweaking them to fit certain points limits easy, and it saves me hours (and hours) of my valuable hobby time.

It's a solid product, and I like it.

That said, it seems to me that Lone Wolf is facing a lose-lose situation. The ill will they suffer as a result of attempts to enforce their trademark is probably worse than losing their trademark through dilution.

And here's the thing. I'm not a lawyer either. But wanting to know a bit more about the legal ramifications of this mess, I did about 5 minutes searching on the internet. Here's what I found:

The Fair Use defense may be asserted when

… the alleged infringer is using the mark to describe accurately an aspect of its products, …

And an example was given:

…although Maytag owns the trademark "Whisper Quiet", makers of other products may describe their goods as being "whisper quiet" so long as these competitors are not using the phrase as a trademark.

So, the law does recognize that "Whisper" and "Quiet" are just two words in the language. And if somebody else makes a gizmo that is quiet, they can certainly say their item is whisper quiet. They just can't do so as a trademark.

Seems to me that "Army" and "Builder" are just two more words. And if somebody else writes a program to build army rosters for, say, Warmachine, they could call it the Warmachine Army Builder if they wanted to.

And fans of the game could post questions like "Does anyone know a good army builder program for Warmachine?"

I can't imagine any lawsuit that Lone Wolf might file would stand up in court. But we won't find out until someone decides to stand their ground and it gets to court.

I'm not going to slam Lone Wolf, and say I will never use their product again. I will. I like it. But it seems their unfortunate choice of a generic term to be their trademark is going to haunt them.

Naming your army builder program "Army Builder" is like naming your new lawn mower line "Lawn Mower".

Hexxenhammer wins the prize for nailing the sentiment.

Just a question, but was the term 'Army Builder' in common usage BEFORE Lone Wolf released their product?

If it was and they copyrighted something already in usage, I have little sympathy for them.

However, if it was there software that made the term one which we all use, then it seems they have a very valid point.

Personally, I've always enjoyed the pencil and paper approach, so I don't know much about the history of army building software.

Joe5mc…yes it was…i remember being school computing, and we bodged an army builder together on a BBC Micro using a crude database(by todays standards)…that was 20 years ago.
We called it Army Builder Database, and used it to knock out rogue trader lists. Then GW produced a version 10 odd years ago…we all called that the GW army Builder.

I have countless army building spreadsheets, from years ago, going back to the 90's.

If any one from lone wolf reads this, please insert "ibodger" as appropriate.
Oh, and if anyone from lone wolf does read this: Hi, act like a d*ck and you'll get treated like one.

Lone Wolf wrote .there were instances where our trademark was used in a generic manner on Privateer's forum, such as "I'm looking for an army builder to do X". These posts represent an improper use of our trademark, but they are not an infringement.'

If they gave the two words initial capital letters perhaps it would be using a trade mark but in lower case, juxtaposed, of a phrase used for many years in a wargaming context. It all seems rather Stalinist. (Is Stalinist someone's trademark- oops sorry)

Allen is completely correct. This is absolutely why business owners should retain and use an attorney for this, and other issues. All too easy to make a fool of yourself if you don't.

If it was and they copyrighted something already in usage, I have little sympathy for them.

You can't copyright a title, can you?

I believe Lone Wolf as no grounds on this, as the name of their product is a purely functional name. Now, if they had called it ArmyBuilder (all one word) and forums were using THAT term without permission, it would be different…

I was going to look into the program and perhaps purchase it. Now I won't bother. Robert

Isn't the trade marked page 'The Miniatures Page' a functional name as well? I remember when I found this page before the dawn of time and thinking the title was generic. As a matter of fact, my friends and I often referred to other websites and catalog pages as 'the miniatures page.'

Just to be clear. The dispute is about Lone Wolf Development's trademark, not copyright. Trademarks and copyrights are completely different things as are patents.

A trademark lays claim to a name of a products so that others may not confuse the public by offering products using the same name.

That Lone Wolf Development has done exactly this is not in dispute. Niether is their right to enforce their trademark.

What is in question is the propriety of claiming a generic, commmon term as a trademark and ten attempting to enforce it. That the trademark was granted demonstrates only that the office responsible for doing so had little knowledge of the hobby (and probably didn't care).

This sort of moronic behavior occurs all the time. Just ask Palladium about "Nightspawn," or the band "Zombie Riot" about Rob Zombie's C&D notice.

Unfortunately, most of these people who are "simply protecting their IP" count on the chilling effects of their C&D notices to do the job without ever having to go to court – and that's just what happens. When faced with potential litigation, the prospect of spending $$$ to defy a challenge often outweighs the desire to defend one's position. It's usually easier and more cost effective to just back down.

Even more unfortunate is the fact that we live in a society where what is legal/illegal often has little or no correlation to what is right/wrong, especially in IP law. (And there are plenty of people willing to exploit that fact.)

Ridiculous! Had they named it "Exercitus Constructum", then they would have a case. As is, pretty light on a true claim. In addition, by referencing everyone elses games in his product, he is actually diluting their products; not vice versa.

Furthermore, let's think about this. He calls his company "Lone Wolf." I don't know about you, but that is THE most creative name ever. Or not…

Then, he calls his product Army Builder. That is a totally generic name and I recall when it came out that there were already some "free" army builders as java applets.

Finally, my bias as a lawyer, you don't go off half-cocked without talking these thingsover with your attorney or you end up looking like a jerk, or worse, an idiot.

I won't be buying version 3, but maybe Privateer Press will come out with their own "army builder". Sue me. Go on, sue me.

Actually, there's a very nice FREE Warmachine/Hordes collection tracker/army builder called Tabletop Commander that is available. I don't know if it's been updated for Prime Mk. II yet. Being free, probably not. But it nicely lets you track what models you have, whether they're painted or not, and lets you build lists based on ownership or painting state. Very useful.

I wasn't trying to make more work for poor Rob at Lone Wolf, but I probably should point out that on the Rackham forums, I downloaded a free program called Army Builder AT-43.

If anyone from Lone Wolf reads this, then I guess they better send off another letter, or risk losing their trademark to the masses.

Just to answer the Editor's question, they can Trademark a name. That said, they only get the damages if they can show that the term is not already in use when marked by the target of the suit.

The last thing I'd listen to is unsolicited advice from "a lawyer." Lawyers are for sale. That's their entire reason for existence.

But topics like this are great, because you can certainly tell who the dip* are.

Dungeons and Dragons may not words that are used very frequently by most people, but they are entirely descriptive of a generic fantasy setting.

So why don't you just try using those and seeing how far you get?