"Vendel Miniatures Now Available in the Americas" Topic

Because Nazis refer to a specific organisation; whether another group which does not claim the label resembles the Nazis closely enough to be branded "Nazi" is a judgment.

The Nazi rule is a bit simpler than that -- it just says you can't call someone a Nazi. It doesn't say that you can't compare some group to the Nazis.

That carries with it a value judgment that Nazis are a hate group. And needless to say, that's a completely justified value judgement-- but it is a value judgement.

So in other words, one dawghouse offense is based on a value judgement, whereas another one is based on making value judgements!

The Nazi rule is more complicated--one can call Hitler a Nazi, but one can't call Margaret Thatcher (for instance) a Nazi.

So the line is first of all whether the person in question acknowledged being what is now considered an extremely pejorative thing. One can also argue about groups more than 10 years in past which did not claim to be Nazis, whether or not their ideology was close enough to the Nazis to include them in that label--like Mosley's BUFs.

What one cannot do, though, is label current (in the past 10 years) people or organisations Nazi who do not claim the title, because such a label presumes political analysis of the individual which cannot be supported without violation of TMP's ban on discussion of recent political events and issues.

"But whether this group is or isn't a "hate group" is a political and a value judgment."

Bill, please listen to the British TMPers instead of chucking them in the sin bin.

Hi Andy from SMPress,

None of this is your fault. You did not know and it does not reflect badly on you.

Cheers

Ace

Andy,
I think a lot of people would be relieved if you purchased the company and the molds. I, for one, would not hold the current situation against you.

But whether this group is or isn't a "hate group" is a political and a value judgment

Sorry Bill but this either shows a complete lack of knowledge about [admittedly UK based] politics or total naivety.

Actually this does raise a point. SMP Press Andy tried to do some due diligence on a company he wished to trade with, thinking that the prominent status this site enjoys in the wargaming community (as argued by many of us in the great wikipedia War of a couple of years back) would ensure that any niggles would show up here.

The deletion of the previous thread has effectively denied Andy an informed choice which, curiously enough, was behind my original question when I was considering Vendel minis at the time

I'm not going to hold anything against SMP Press for carrying Vendel figs. I'd like two of those Border Reiver March Warden sets please.

I want to thank everyone who replied here, and to me via PM's.

Mr. Hynd is on holiday this week. I have sent him an e-mail discussing this issue, and full disclosure, and making an offer to buy the company from him, Time will tell, but I don't think I will hear anything until next week, I am not positive when he will return, or if he has computer access wherever he is.

If he chooses to not sell, I will be trying to sell off what stock I have, and move on considering this a lesson learned. If he does sell, I will bring the molds over, and we will see what kind of business we can do with them. This will entail both the Historical and the fantasy ranges, as several people have asked me about the fantasy figures as well. I may keep the Vendel name, or I may roll them under Sgt Major miniatures, or come up with a new branding, haven't decided. Seems to me that the Vendel name carries enough baggage that any benefit of name recognition is really lost in the negative connotations.

I will keep people updated on how things go. I do wish that the old thread were still on TMP somewhere. I searched here on Vendel, and saw some posts about different lines that they do, size comparisons, and so on. I didn't see anything in the posts that would have lead me to understand any of the issues that I now face.

On a personal note, I really appreciate the notes I have received from many on this site, both public and private. You guys are class acts, not holding this against me. I really expected more people to send me hate mail over this mess…

Thanks
Andy

So to merely mention the name of a legal political organisation, and someones admitted affiliation to that same, legal, political organisation, is worthy of 10 days in the sin bin?

Continuing to debate an issue that the moderator has specified must adjourn to the Blue Fez is the actual problem here.

I'd buy the Vendel stuff if it was produced in the U.S. SMPress…buy the molds, cast the figs and sell 'em. Get the Elizabethan line, too.

Do you have the following in stock and/or can get them? Tried to purchase them through Vendel in the UK but they no longer ship to the US.. and your website doesn't list them…

1ea.- BR5 The Robson Family
1ea.- BR4 The Maxwell Family
1ea.- BR3 The Johnstone Family
1ea.- BR2 The Elliot Family
1ea.- BR1 The Armstrong Family
1ea.- BR6 The Charlton Family
1ea.- BR7 Reiver Raiders
1ea.- BR8 16 Sword & Bucklermen
1ea.- BR9 The Marchwardens Men
1ea.- R17 24 Man Caliver Unit
1ea.- Spears/Javelins 50mm
1ea.- Spears/Javelins (Planished) 50mm
1ea.- Javelin/Spear 40mm

thanks

Hope I don't get dawghoused like the rest of Texas for trying to stay "on-topic" <grin>

Bizzbum,

i sent you an e-mail. If you want to order online, try these two links. I do not yet have the Elizabethans on my website, but everything else should be there.

sgmm.biz/borderreivers.html
sgmm.biz/animalsweapons.html

TMP link

for those wishing to take it elsewhere.

I stopped buying British Petroleum gas. I don't go to Tom Cruise movies. I don't care what your product is, if I don't think the producer is ethical, I won't buy it.

In that case you must either live entirely off the grid and make pretty much everything yourself, or you're very careful about what you learn about corporations.
-Kle.

Exactly!

So if one finds that the maker of product is a dillhole, you should continue to buy that product even if non-dillhole options are available? I don't do a background check on everything I buy, but if a company/individual goes out of their way to prove how terrible they are, I won't continue doing business with them.

So TMP by deleting the previous thread on this individual's known political views has duped not only buyers of his company's products, but the present importer?

Sorry, but TMP has done a disservice to the hobby community.

Dan

Pathetic!

I don't think there's any blame on TMP for a 'disservice' to our community.

The thread was most likely nuked for violating specific forum rules, not some convoluted effort to deceive or dissemble.

It's quite a stretch to imply that kind of responsibility falls in Bill's lap.

Well, this does purport to be a news site, and it's hobby related.

Gosh.

Gazebo

Bit a stretch to call that kind of information "hobby news".

The notion that some harm, or 'disservice', was perpetrated because the Editor nuked a thread which violated specific policy is absurd.

Apparently, this indirectly related information is readily available elsewhere on the Net, and I don't think it's TMP's purview to investigate, catalog, or disseminate the political, religious, ethical, etc, positions of individuals in the industry.

Kyoteblue: are you trying to bump this to a third page?

dude…

Just my take on the whole thing…..

Andy, your response to this issue has been nothing short of exemplary. Thank you for taking the time to post on this thread. If you buy the Vendel range I will be happy to purchase figures, something which under the current ownership I will not do.

You can write off people for being upset at the current owner, and say that their politics should play no part in your purchase decision. Glad to see people happy to be compliant consumers without any ethics or moral compass. Yes it's your decision, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

You can write off people for being upset at the current owner, and say that their politics should play no part in your purchase decision. Glad to see people happy to be compliant consumers without any ethics or moral compass.

Male bovine droppings…

Yes it's your decision, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

You know what's a good idea? How about scaling back the attitude and not trying to inflame the situation. Does it make you feel better making uninformed generalizations about other people?

I would like to apologise to Andy for any worry that this thread has caused him, I will e-mail you later.

I would like to assure Andy and everyone else that I am not a Nazi or Fascist, as anyone who knows me will tell you, although there are those on this thread who will choose not to beleive me!

I am a traditionalist who does not believe in change unless it is beneficial.

It is easy to slander someone from the anonymity of a username but not one of you has e-mailed, phoned or spoke to me in person at Salute about this subject!

The only people who have mentioned it have, whilst not always agreeing with my views, supported my right to hold my own opinions.

Roland Hynd

Glad to see people happy to be compliant consumers without any ethics or moral compass.

no.

just not the same as your "compass".

I for one don't jump and scream "J'accuse" when some one else points and yells "WITCH"…"Heretic"…."Nazi"…..

those are inflammatory and provocative accusations, and a good number of people, like being hit with the physicians hammer just below the knee, respond in a reflexive manner.

Everyone knows the "correct" side to be vice Witches, Heretics or Nazis…so easy to claim the moral high ground. or is it so apparent?

As I said earlier, each of us decides on our own personal basis what we do and why. I've NOT bought stuff from a person I personally thought was a jerk. I did not NOT buy from him because he was of the Democratic, or Republican or Libertarian or Peoples or green party et al. I reject your assertion my reasoning is faulty.

Your claim that your position is holding the moral & ethical high ground is what is disturbing IMO.

We will have to agree to disagree

Andy,
I had been planning to get some of Vendel's fantasy packs, but after discovering the information on this thread, I feel I cannot buy them in good faith from the current owner. Thus, I will happily deal with you should you acquire the moulds; best of luck!

*sigh*

Getting back to toy soldiers…I asked Andy to get two March Warden sets for me. They're nice figs and I think the guys here will enjoy something different.

Very fair comments Stafford, and I had a plan in the future re some of your figures, but how do I know I amnot supporting an organisation … one who has posted me on "Red Watch" for my democratic activities?

Mr Hynd

It can be hard to judge the BNP on their own words, as their consitituion can only be downloaded with the express written permission of your Leader Nick Griffin.

As I understand it, however, your leader's word is law in the BNP, there is an advisory council, but your leader has the only voice.

I find this thread on an American forum highly amusing.

The BNP (while being right wing and radical by British standards) would sit somewhere between the Democrats and Republicans in the American landscape…

Fredd

There are elements of BNP policy that I think would be beyond the pale for mainstream Republicans and Democrats.

Hexxenhammer

but if a company/individual goes out of their way to prove how terrible they are, I won't continue doing business with them.

IIRC, the British firm, Vickers, had a problem with the sights on their artillery pieces, and purchased Zeiss sights through Holland for them. During wartime, they did business with an enemy firm. Too bad the British government of the time was not as high-minded and pure as you, eh?

Well, this does purport to be a news site, and it's hobby related.

And the site DOES HAVE rules and those rules were broken by all the dopes rabbitting on about politics when they knew, or should have known, that politics are verboten here.

I asked myself what would I do if it was one of the Perry twins and not Hynd.

After I answered that question I realized something

BravoX

If it had been then I would have saved myself a small fortune as I wouldn't have bought the LoTR range from GW

Not an iussue for me – if you like the figures buy them. Mr Hyde has done nothing illegal. The BNP is a legally recognised political body in the UK. He is entitled to be a member of it. You are entitled not to trade with him. But making it a big ethics issue is a step too far.

I disagree with the tory party and its policies, but I will not rant over them and cease to trade with members of it. If you choose to, is it right to make a big issue on TMP over it.

Bottom line – BNP is not illegal in the UK

Marc

It has been a close run thing for them though

link

So where in the UK can I buy Vendel figures from today? Anywhere? Or do I go to the US? And if so where?