"Black Army Productions Launches Infernal Machines Range of 3D Printed 1:600 ACW Ironclads & 28mm Vehicles" Topic

I cannot reconcile the price you ask with the size of the product. I will not be buying these.

Sergeant Paper, I completely agree. I didn't want to be the first to say it. For white metal models like Thoroughbred produces, the prices are fine. For plastic renderings though, too high.

May I suggest that you add USS/CSS Diana, simply because I need one? And yes, lower the prices

Agree. Until the price comes down, they are a one off fad.

They also don't look that great. The Ozark and Red Rover models don't look anything like the real ships.

Prices are the same as Thoroughbred so why the complaint? You are paying for the work effort not the raw materials!

Thank you for the support, RM.

I'm sorry you feel they don't look that great, Coastal. I must have been looking at the wrong plans and photos of both ships when I sculpted them…

I mean, obviously for Red Rover…

Guess somebody faked that last photo, huh?

And the Ozark clearly doesn't match any historical image.

Look, I appreciate that different people interpret different pictures differently. We all see details that others miss. But in the case of the Red Rover, I'll defend her… with the exception of lack of flag staffs (Which nobody sculpts on as part of the main model), she's pretty much spot on. If you want them that badly, it's a pretty simple matter to drill into the top the ship and add them. I actively chose -not- to depict her 32 pound banded rifle on the bow. Want one? Thoroughbred sells guns, and they are quite nice. Please, consider him as a source.

As for Ozark, the only details I can see amiss are the rear machine house (which was described as both "one" structure and "two" as seen in the image ) and the awning mounted to the fore of the main deck house – which was added only after she received her additional armament later in 1864 and was not a part of the ship as commissioned. She was, after all, rebuilt no less than three times.

Price is what it is. I'm sorry that some of you feel it's too expensive, but it's still less expensive or equal to the equivalent in pewter and resin, and 3d printed plastic isn't exactly the cheapest production material. I make literally perhaps a dollar or two on these ships once they ship to you. You're also looking at mere pittance in terms of shipping, so that doesn't add considerably to price, either.

I don't mind criticism, gentlemen (and ladies) but please, let's keep it civil. It's not as if I threw a bunch of random shapes together and attempted to sell them to you.

- Alex

Incidentally, I'll certainly consider Diana:)

Alex … this is TMP so you will hear peoples views sometimes without any filters; I was always brought up to be polite and respectful in spite of my views. I wish you luck with your venture.

I think these look great and the price is reasonable and in the same league for the most part as Thoroughbred and Bay Area Yards. Besides, anyone who has dealt with Shapeways (an excellent service, by the way) knows that 3D printing is not cheap, yet offers a tremendous gateway for innovation. I like the idea of producing unusual or as yet unsculpted ships in addition to some of the old standbys. Best of luck with this endeavor.

I cant judge with accuracy because I dont have a physical model but based on the photos from the manufacturer I have to say these are no way comparable with either Thoroughbred or Bay Area Yards for detail. Alex, I appreciate printed 3d plastic isn't the cheapest material, but that raises the question why you are trying to use it? In my experience WSF\BSF doesn't hold detail that well.

Good luck, but I cant see the point of using an expensive manufacturing method to create an inferior model.

Your prices don't look out of line with others on Shapeways.

As for the sculpts, I am far from an expert on the subjects, but they seem reasonable. Red Rover certainly looks like the photos to me. And I shudder to think how a good model would be produced in 1:600 by conventional metal casting…

The price on the Red Rover is a bit sticker shock inducing for a 1:600, but how many would you need anyway?

I appreciate the fact that Black Army has put in a huge amount of work, helping to push the hobby into what will be the standard way of delivering miniatures a few years down the line. Quality will go up and price will go down because of efforts like this. It is really astonishing.

It is a shame that the kind of ordinary civility that gamers used to have can't be printed as well.

I you aren't giving them away in cereal boxes and eating all the costs there will be complainers about the cost. Heck, even if you were doing that they would complain that they don't like the cereal.

Actually, the prices look fine for 1/600 ACW ironclads.

Throughbred CSS Jackson = $20.00 USD
Infernal Machines CSS Jackson = $13.00 USD

This is a perfect subject to do with 3D printing, lots of flat surfaces and angles.

Yes, the prices look perfectly reasonable for 1/600 scale, and the model detail isn't fantastic but it's probably about right for 3d printing. Plus you'll never ever see a lot of these ships in metal; too obscure. So Black Army I like the line and I appreciate what you're doing. I'll see about picking some up soon!

-Will

I'm rather surprised at the price complaints on these ships. Comparing them to 1/600 naval offerings from Thoroughbred or Bay Area Yards and the typical price for 3D printed miniatures from Shapeways, they seem very reasonable to me. After all, its not like you need more than one Ozark or Red Rover. Personally, I'm excited to see new offerings in the 1/600 ACW Naval genre and I'm going to have to order a set of these for my own collection.

I don't think the detail is too bad on those ships (the turrets with the awnings might be hard as heck to produce reliably in resin or metal) and I too think the prices are good. And even more, I am VERY pleased and impressed that ANY of the proceeds would go to charity, and especially happy it will benefit our veterans. Very noble. I do not own any of my own ironclads, but that alone has spurred me to purchase myself a hospital ship and to start collecting. (heck, I even have a set of "Game Of Admirals" ready and waiting for some river action)

Pushing the envelope is not a bad thing at all. Just check out the open frame spaceships Irrational Designs has done on Shapeways. Can't reproduce that effectively in conventional materials without them becoming tiny kits.

Carry on, Corvinus.

No offense but I do have the Throughbred ships and these in no way come anywhere close to them. That doesn't mean I don't wish you luck with them but I will not be purchasing any.

FWIW I think they are OK, I agree they don't stack up brilliantly against Toby's models from Thoroughbred but they look like they'd fit in with the Peter Pig models very well. The detail is a bit caricatured in the case of the Ozark in particular, the model would benefit from finer funnels and a more representative "hut" structure on the stern, but thats stuff that the keen modeller could replace themselves if they wanted.

I struggle with the Shapeways grainy texture look. Maybe I'll get over it. Thanks for making another option for us to choose from.

Hello all – I'd prepared a response last night, and the moment I tried to post, the membership system went down for the night (at least until 2am Pacific when I finally hit the hay)!

So first of all thank you to those who understand that the prices are what they are due to the medium involved and costs of production. I can definitely confirm that the profit margin is slim, particularly given the literally HUNDREDS of hours that my husband put into researching and creating these over the last few months. And as a couple folks have pointed out, you only need one of each ship!

Regarding the Shapeways/ 3D printed platform, as some have pointed out, there are some significant advantages over traditional sculpting methods.

First, yes, you can get a lot more detail on a single-piece 3D model than you can on a typical resin/metal model. 3D models don't have the same "undercut" issues as traditional casting. All but one of the "Infernal Machines" products are currently come in one piece. One has a stack that must be glued to the top. That's all!

Second, you can make changes to a model instantly. If you traditionally sculpt, mold, and cast 50 of a model, and you put it up for sale, and your customers say "hey that's great, but the stack is disproportionately large," you're pretty much stuck. You've paid for the mold, the casting, everything else. But with Shapeways, details like that can be altered quickly, with the very next print reflecting the change.

Finally, 3D models are nice and lightweight, which means cheaper shipping and easier transport – we've discovered that ours can be placed in a tray without as much risk of paint chipping if they bang against each other.

The graininess can be alleviated significantly by cleaning the models with Simple Green, and even more comes off if you use a standard jewelry cleaner. Corvinus learned this trick when buying WWI airplanes (to use with Aerodrome) from the extensive range currently available on Shapeways. Also we learned that the "Black Strong and Flexible" material is better than "White Strong and Flexible," due to the polishing that occurs with the addition of color.

As to concerns regarding criticisms on the page, etc. I agree that it's important to be able to take constructive critiques by TMP members. However, I believe Corvinus' response to Coastal2's comment was entirely appropriate. Saying "I think the stack on this one looks a bit large in proportion to the ship" or the like is constructive criticism, but saying dismissively, without explanation or reference to source material, that these "don't look anything like the real ships," is neither constructive nor civil, and Corvinus' response was firm and to the point, but not uncivil.

As I mentioned, Corvinus spent hundreds of hours researching not only the plans and schematics for these ships, but also period descriptions, illustrations, and in some cases photographs, of the finished ships. Surprisingly, in quite a few cases, the completed ship looked very different from the plans, due to local resources and preferences, political maneuvering, etc. So in those cases there would be at least two possible ways to approach sculpting the ship!

Also – so you can see some finished and painted examples, here are the ships in the range I currently have decent photos of (I plan to take more in the next week or so and will share those here as well):

CSS Mississippi, render and two different paint schemes:

The CSS 1861:

Black Army's CSS Chicora approaching Thoroughbred's USS New Ironsides at the Battle of Fort Sumter (and yes, Corvinus is working on custom 3D printed bases for the ships):

They certainly appear to paint up okay.

Yes, I've found even the plain WSF stuff paints up just fine to tabletop standard. The ships look like they come out looking more than adequate for my purposes. Thanks for the pictures!

-Will

To say the detail is a bit caricatured is a bit of an understatement. Having built models for museum clients of ACW ships, I well appreciate the difficulties with regards to research (which is why I haven't attempted an Ozark; at the time I was asked, there just wasn't enough information to accurately attempt it). That said, these may well work as game pieces for some, but they would never past muster on my table (or that of anyone I know of).

Sorry to strike a nerve, but if you're going to market something, then expect to get all opinions/reviews, good and bad.

Will:

Strongly recommend the BSF option if you have the extra buck (it makes me no more money).I've found, with a couple notable exceptions, that BSF comes out smoother, with far less grainy appearance, and is quite easy to paint. This is partly due tot he material, and partly because the material is placed in the polisher prior to the models being shipped (despite Shapeways descriptions.) You're essentially getting the benefit of polished plastic without paying the higher markup. The only exception I've found is something I've currently got in prototype (CSS Tuscaloosa). For some reason, her ventilator funnels do -not- like BSF and don't appear to print correctly.I'm going to tweak the model a bit more, but, were I to offer it now, I'd say that WSF is the better option for that -specific- ship.

I am of mixed opinion about BSF for Missouri as well. She's a fairly basic shape, and the BSF polishers really grind down some of the finer detail (such as the gun hatches). They are visible, but were I do do it again for myself, I might consider trying WSF just to see if I get a little more detail at the price of grainy texture.

As a general hint to everyone, a cheap jewelry cleaner (sonic cleaner… we used much larger versions in the Archaeology Lab to clean artifacts) filled with cold water and on occasion a touch of simple green, run for a couple 4-5 minute sessions, really helps to smooth down the grainy texture of some of the worst offenders.It's also a great tool, incidentally, for stripping the paint off of 3D Printed Plastics.

Another simple tip? Spray down models printed in WSF with matte sealer. It can do wonderful things for creating a smooth surface to work on, but it may not be as useful for highly detailed surfaces (such as turrets, or the wood planking on 1861's deck, for example.)

One thing I can't recommend is the "3D Plastic Surfacer" material offered by Reynolds. Not sure what they're currently calling it, but ostensibly, it creates a smooth shell on the outside of a 3D model printed in standard WSF Plastic. This makes for better painting, and casting, but and it does work. However, the chemicals are incredibly noxious, very dangerous, and quite a pain to work with. Not worth the extra pain, in my humble opinion.

i think they look good and the price seems reasonable to me!

Yes, these are not "museum quality" pieces, but I don't think they are intended to be that. They are intended to be pieces for ironclad games. And they are at a good price point for what you get. $100 USD will get you more than enough to game many engagements. They fill that niche for the wargamer who would like to get stuff on the table and may not have the time to dedicate on the modeling aspect of the hobby.