"New: Bolt Action Deutsche Afrika Korps Dice Bag" Topic

While a neat idea I personally would be uncomfortable caring a dice bag that displayed a swastika. Yes, I know it is historically accurate, but do you really want to have "that" conversation with someone who is either Jewish, or more likely is simply ignorant of history?

While it might be an opportunity to open a dialog I have noticed that some war gamers have a tendency to get defensive. Now some of you might say, "Well Kim, you have miniature tanks with the very same symbol on them, and what about your Confederate ACW miniatures that carry a Rebel flag?" All fair points and worthy of debate. However, I would state that miniatures clearly displayed either on the shelf or better yet the game table are not intrinsically going to be misinterpreted as avocation either of Hitler's Germany, or the attitudes of the antebellum South.

The dice bag on the other hand could be easily construed as a statement. Granted, it would be an incorrect correlation, but my experience has been that people oft times jump to inaccurate conclusions. It is always important to monitor one's intent versus impact. Apologies Paul, as I am sure this is not how you would prefer we discuss Warlord's merchandise. I will gladly buy the dice bag with the Desert Rats symbol. And I am an avid collector or Warlord product.

Respectfully,

Kim

I'm not carrying around a bag with a swastika on it either.

I think this is a mistake too.
Theres no reference to the Afrika corps or any other contextual thing other than 'Bolt Action', as whitemanticore stated most people will be ignorant of this name and assume its a reference to a more political viewpoint alongside other dodgy groups such as combat18 or the like.

I have to agree, the swastika on a dice bag is a bad idea.

I'm not particularly opinionated about symbols on miniatures and historical models, but this product seems unwise.

Anyone living in Germany is excluded from having one, right?

Love the product line but agree with the posts above. Could have left out the swastika and used the letters 'DAK' or a divisional symbol, etc.

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

Flames of War has been doing this for ages. Dice, patches – and most of their kit is SS…

Modellers do this as well. No big deal there, is there? Nope.

I have no problem with it, at all. It's a game, it's history. For me, that's it.

The swastika in the palm IS the DAK symbol, so it's 100% accurate.

I have the gray Balkenkreuz dice bag and it's the only one I think I will need. Since this IS the historical symbol I'm going with the theory of "Heritage not Hate".

I can't see why we need to get so verklempt over real historial symbols.

have to agree with most of the other posts here. It's one thing to have a historically accurate army when playing a game, but totally different carrying around a dice bag with a swastika, just feels wrong.

If I see someone carrying this in a game convention or elsewhere in France I'll probably call the police.

Can you imagine going through TSA with something like that. I fully appreciate spirit in which it is being marketed but it's pretty intense. If I recall most reenactments do not allow you to show up in a German uniform, you must dress there. I would see this along the same vein. If its in the duffle and only out at a Con or Game night i guess its ok but if you have it dangling from your backpack your asking for an uncomfortable situation with the unwashed masses. I administer a museum that has artifacts like these and we have to be very sensitive on how we represent "that symbol" Just my 2 cents.

Afternoon gents,

This was always going to be something of an emotive product but we would rather give our customers the options to buy the very items they have been asking us to produce than pretend these symbols didn't ever exist.

Is the swastika a symbol of a tyrannical regime that visited death upon millions be they armed or otherwise? Most certainly. However, we didn't receive the same reaction to the Soviet dice bag and I'm sure we all agree that the Soviet union had a similar record. Come to think of it the Romans weren't angels yet plenty of Roman re-enactors, etc. The Waffen-SS were fanatical and responsible for an atrocity or two yet they prove extremely popular subjects for wargames armies. Where do you draw the line? In the end that is up to each one of us to decide.,

Ultimately this comes down to you the customer and your own ideals. If you find the image less than savoury or distasteful then please don't buy it. For many, this is merely a symbol of the army they choose to wargame with and nothing more. For those players, we have produced this dice bag. It is not intended as a political statement but as a receptacle for your 6-sided gaming dice that follows the theme of the army of toy soldiers you choose to play with.

As this is only available via our webstore it will be up to the individual to decide whether they wish to add this to their wargaming collection or not. It won't sit on store shelves or be thrust upon the unwary at shows. Any questions of legality or morality falls firmly with the customer – we do not presume to tell anyone what they should or should not buy. We are aware that in Germany the Swastika is banned but, like our other dice bags, it will not be made available to retailers and therefore not pose a problem.

We fully appreciate that this will not be everyone's cup of tea, just as political correctness isn't pleasing for others. Please take this for what it is – a dice bag for playing games with model soldiers.

Cheers,

Paul
warlordgames.com

I gotta agree with Paul on this one. It's a bag. For dice. For a game. With toy soldiers.

We already went through this with the DAK dice before from Flames of War. If it doesn't sell, they probably won't make more, so if you don't like it, don't buy it. I personally wouldn't be comfortable toting it around, but I don't condemn the company for selling it.

"Is the swastika a symbol of a tyrannical regime that visited death upon millions be they armed or otherwise? Most certainly. However, we didn't receive the same reaction to the Soviet dice bag and I'm sure we all agree that the Soviet union had a similar record."

I don't agree with the similar record comment. The Stalinists were brutal but they did not primarily exterminate people because of what they were. I think racist genocide is a thing more horrible than anything else, which is why we hate the swastika so much.

Well here in the Beautiful Czech Republic I wouldn´t walk around with either one. The swastika is illegal and the hammer and sickle should be!

I am not a fan of dice bag but I feel that people are getting alittle too much into what is politically correct and what is not. The emblem shown is correct for the DAK. So why not allow those who want to purchase it do that? This reminds me of some plastic model companies who go through the effort to produce as accurate as possible a particular German WWII aircraft and and then do not give you a swastika for the tail of the aircraft because it might offend someone. If I am purchasing something I want it as historically accurate as possible and not what the politically correct want it to be.

"If I am purchasing something I want it as historically accurate as possible and not what the politically correct want it to be."

there is no such thing as a historically accurate dice bag!!!!!

Patrice, call the cops, really? If you don't like it don't buy it. It could be in bad taste but I can't stand thought police.

Any questions of legality or morality falls firmly with the customer

Of course not. Paul I don't blame you, but obviously the company is morally (and in some countries, legally) responsible for what it makes and sells.

People who see someone carrying this will think he likes the nazis. So knowing this, there's only two kinds of people who will buy it:
1) Teenagers who don't really understand what it means, but: Oooh, Panther tanks are so cool! They need to be educated, not encouraged.
2) Adults who know that people will think they are nazi-lovers, and have no problem with it. It means they are.

CommanderCarnage: I reacted strongly. I would probably talk first; then ask the convention organiser to kick the guy out. The cops have more important things to do. But yes, if the guy looks very proud to display this bag around for some time, the cops could be a last argument to stop him doing so.

Note to self: when thinking of going places, find out where Patrice is. Avoid that place. Enjoy life.

Police?!? What?!? I'm sure EVERYONE has something better to do than run around chasing people with dice bags. LOL!

I think the reaction to the swastika is greatly affected by where one lives. Those on the Continent, such as Patrice, have a much stronger aversion to it (and rightly so) than those, for example, in North America.
Here in Czech there is no toleration of the swastika, and pointing out its use on a dice bag is historically correct will get you nowhere.
But it does look nice though, I wish there were a swastika free version, regardless of its inaccuracy.

"there is no such thing as a historically accurate dice bag!!!!!"
Just want to make sure you realize I was referring to the aircraft and not the dice bag.

I don't see this as an issue to argue over as it's so subjective and as Paul states "emotive".

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

Wow, with all this negative waves over a DAK bag with the swastika on it, I guess I'll never get a black bag with it on it from Warlord games. I have no problem with the symbol, but I do understand why others might be offended by it. But it's not like I'm a Nazi or supporting it, I'm just playing a game.

I guess I'll have to wait until they make a Finnish bag and buy that one.

Since when is it merely "PC" to hate and fear the Swastika?

Did some 300,000 GI's die in the ETO just to feel good about themselves?

There is a difference between PC and sensitivity to the experiences and feelings of others.

Images, symbols, emblems can have universally understood meanings, and the choice of ignoring their effect on others does not speak well of one's own membership in human society.

Next church you enter, will you defer ing on the Altar because it would not be "PC," or because you know it would very definitely offend the deeply held feelings of others?

Yes, the swastika on the palm tree design is "historically accurate." So why shouldn't some figure manufacturer produce an "historically accurate" set of Kluckers lynching a Black Man? Only because it's "not PC?"

I am appalled at those comments that the writer is "Okay with it," "not concerned," or that the responsibility for any reaction is entirely in the eye of the beholder.

When you watch the newsreel footage of the bulldozer pushing mounds of brutalized corpses at Belsen into a mass grave, do you find it "historically accurate," and that people who weep, and become ill, and even despair of the existence of a Merciful God, are just "overreacting?"

I'm afraid much of what Paul said is sheer sophistry. Yes, of course the symbols of Rome probably were seen by contemporaries as representing tyranny and mass murder (think of Jerusalem, if not a hundred other places). But, to paraphrase, we haven't been bothered much by the Roman Empire for a while.

Nazism, as symbolized by its use of the swastika, is still a living memory (and an ideal of too many), and one which civilization cannot afford to forget. That emblem has become irrevocably fused with the coldest, sheerest evil, and it cannot be rehabilitated.

And why even try?

Carry it on your person, emblazon it on your gaming gear at your own peril. You will be judged for showing it openly, as if proud to display it. I do not say that doing so means you ARE a Nazi, but try to explain the difference to someone who will think so. He may not be impressed by your interest in "historical accuracy."

For the record, I see not the slightest difference between the swastika or hammer and cycle. Their proponents will spend endless hours and ink citing the differences, but they are still standing on an Everest of murdered humanity, the victims of Nazism just as dead as those of Socialism.

Indeed, battle deaths aside, the Nazis in some 12 years willfully murdered something on the order of 12 millions, while Soviet style Socialism from Stalin, to Mao, to Kim Il Sung, to Pol Pot, et al, have some 100 millions to account for. But then, they've had decades more time to work.

In practical terms, I think a simple apology--"Okay, we goofed"--is in order, and then a new run of stocks with, as suggested, "DAK," bust of Rommel, or other image substituted.

Notice, I do NOT suggest going with the palm tree sans swastika. That's CHANGING history, something Socialists are very comfortable with, and none of us should be.

Finally, some twits are going to be moved to respond to this post with long lectures on how the Afrika Korps didn't perform atrocities, no SS, etc, operated in North Africa, Rommel's eventual turn against Hitler, etc. All true enough, but totally beside the point, so please don't bother.

TVAG

TVAG, pretty high talk. Do you game colonials? Does the murder perpetrated on the African continent cause you see the symbols of colonial empires in the same way. As I said before bad taste, yes. Calling the cops,kicking the guy out, lecturing everyone not as mortified as you, no.

Ah! So that's what the "stifle" button does. So much quieter and less holy in here now.

LOL.

Well, I picked mine up at Claymore and think its quite spiffy. I don't expect to explain to anyone that I'm not a Nazi. If they think I am because I have a dice bag, they can take a flying flump to themselves. It's of no concern to me what passes for an opinion among such morons.

Do you game colonials? Does the murder perpetrated on the African continent cause you see the symbols of colonial empires in the same way.

I'll admit to feeling a little disappointed in myself for owning a Force Publique contingent for Darkest Africa games. I doubt the average person would connect a yellow star on a blue field with souless evil, and I doubt that justifies collecting them in 28mm. I guess I have them for 'completeness' sake…

I guess this means we won't be seeing the SS Totenkopf dice bag.

StarfuryXL5

Do you really need the dice bag if you have the "world tour" T-shirt?

… besides I thought we all had to use the Crown Royal bag.

I think with the nature of historical wargaming this is always going to be an issue and not only regarding the symbols of Nazi Germany.

Whilst I do own the Battlefront markers for the DAK for "Flames of War" which I suppose I justify as being part of the game itself, I've always been uneasy about the patches that they supply for the army bags and I wouldn't purchase those.

It's a very individual thing where different people have different feeling about what level of depiction of these symbols is appropriate.

Probably the main issue for many is that the symbol on the dice bag is more in your face and noticeable than say on a game marker or die.

So whilst I wouldn't criticise someone else owning the bag it's something I wouldn't buy for myself.

To me and in this context it doesn't matter what military formations were fighting under that symbol or against it back then.

Because nowadays it exclusively stands for murder, destruction and even worse.

Not good.

Clearly we need to stop this too:

link

The Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol of slavery and hate and has no place on the wargames table.

Some people might find it offensive.

"The Confederate Battle Flag is a symbol of slavery and hate and has no place on the wargames table."

I think comparing the Swastika with the Confederate flag is unjust.

Yet if you think that the meaning of this flag is comparable with the meaning of the Swastika, then it should indeed be shunned.

Enjoy life.

Enjoy life with swastikas?

I don't see this as an issue to argue over as it's so subjective and as Paul states "emotive".

It's not emotive. It's about what we don't want to see in the hobby and in the world we live in. I am not arguing, I am protesting. A peaceful protest is legitimate.

I am sad to see a renowned company, which makes wonderful ranges of miniatures, doing something so unwise. What next? Bolt Action "historical" DAK T-shirts? Bolt Action Nazi flags to hang on the walls around the game table to "follow the theme of the army of toy soldiers"?

**sigh** Right.

It's about what we don't want to see in the hobby and in the world we live in

Well then. Lets start with those Assyrians. Mass murdering genocidal maniacs. Romans – Put an entire Cartahginian civilisation into the earth then salted it. Off the table with them. Celts – brain collecting, human sacrifices, wicker men? No, get them off the table too. The least said about the Huns and the Mongols the better, dont want to see that sort of thing in the hobby. No, no no. Absolutely no crusader armies, we all remember Acre and the Cathars. Looks like you will have to melt down your Wallachians, and probably your Turks as well, unless unforced slavery and castration on an industrial scale is your thing. NOTHING from the Thirty Years war – have you any idea what they got up to? Cromwell definately out, get him off the table. What? Confederates? Don't you dare. And if you think you are going to put on those colonials you should think again. And whooa Nelly, those Imperial Japanese should go back in the box.

No, wait, putting any of those on the table doesnt mean you identify with or endorse any of the nastiness that was perpetrated by their historical counterparts. yes, some people may still be offended by the fielding of, say, Crusaders. It takes all sorts to make a world. Doesnt make the guy with the Crusader army evil or even slightly misguided. It just means he likes horses, chainmail and walks in the sun.

I find it "wisible" that folk can tolerate the 1 figure represents 20 Vehicles depiction of the Das Reich Division on the table, but put a swastika on a bag and the world comes to an end. Is the rule "You can put the figures on the table, but if you show any iconography at all, we will automatically brand you a goose stepping monster who must obviously own or want to produce nazi bunting and a CD of "Adolfs Greatest Rally Speeches to Wargame To"?" How Kafkaesque. How absurd.

Its.a.dice.bag.

Down with this sort of thing!

(In fairness I should point out that I have no SS divisions, although I will confess to some Heer)

And here all along I thought the Confederate Battle Flag dealt with states right over the rights of the country. My mistake.
Patrice, so should we also eliminate Napoleonic figures from the gaming table because after all Napoleon tried to conquer the world and how many lives were lost while he tried to do that? Based on what you are saying isn't that despicable or was that just okay?

People seem to be picturing this as a 12" swastika on a backpack. Aren't these fairly small… closer to a swastika on the tail of a 1/32 airplane model?

I'm not sure these pose the statement some people are envisioning.

Side note:
Did anyone else buy the 21st Century Toys DAK Opel Blitz in Walmart? The palm tree logo had a hole in the middle.

Patrice – I forgot to stifle you yesterday. All fixed now!

"What we don't want to see…' : who is 'we' -?

You're obviously entitled to your opinion. Respectfully, avoid the sweeping statements as you're not speaking for anyone else.

Regards,

J. P. Kelly

who is 'we'

I think it can be easily interpreted that "we" in that sentence is trying to voice an opinion for the set of people upset by this, and for whom being 'emotive' does not suffice to end the discussion. Language is allowed to be slightly nebulous or we'd have no poems or disputed contracts. Nor poets, nor lawyers.

But are you really saying we dare not be prescriptivist about the casual adornment of Swastikas on non-historical items, but it's perfectly sensible to be prescriptivist about the use of implied case in sentence formulation?

Ah, the ORIGINAL Deutsche bag.

Darn that auto-correct!

Autos da fe: My answer was direct, based on the fact that Patrice quoted me.

Regards,

J. P. Kelly