"Judge Dredd Coming to Kickstarter September 13th" Topic

Maybe Mongoose would be a bigger company if they didn't keep discontinuing ranges wholesale.

Just saying……

Binky says "OINK"

Agreed Binky. After the SST second edition vaporware, Mongoose would be on the bottom of my list to support. Actually below the bottom.

That is a very nice looking model is that.

As a Babylon 5 ACTA and Drakh player I have a special hate for Mongoose.

That is one seriously good looking Lawmaster!!!

Must say I agree with the Mongoose distrust, they'll get no money from me ever again. OTOH, it's a big name project by an inexplicably popular company, so they don't need my backing, other people will throw more than enough money at them. Should be interesting to see if they can actually produce in a timely fashion – the local gaming crowd was debating what would happen to Kickstarter if there was a high-profile failure to deliver. If there's one company I'd expect to do so, it's Mongoose.

That is a very nice looking model is that.

Model of what? It looks like a preschooler sitting on his dad's motorcycle.

The Chief Lackey hit the nail on the head with

the local gaming crowd was debating what would happen to Kickstarter if there was a high-profile failure to deliver

I've had the exact same conversation with numerours others. What would happen?

I will go with Angel Barracks & Norrins however on the model itself! I've pined nostalgic for a really good Judge Dread mini games for ages only to be disapointed again and again.

Binky says "I am the Law!"

Whilst I too lament some of Mongoose's policies, it's worth remembering that the two high profile failures mentioned, SST and Babylon 5 were somewhat out of Mongoose's control.

SST was the victim of a long term license dispute with Mongoose caught in the middle.

Babylon 5 was a result of licensing from the parent company. I actually investigated with Warner Bros what licensing for it costs and you don't even want to know how much you have to pay out before you can even start.

That being said, Mongoose frequently don't help themselves, ACTA rulebook quality control being a great example.

I'm prepared to give Mongoose more money, but not for a whole game system. I'm also skeptical about the Kickstarter idea for them. This project sounds a little too close to them generating 'running costs' for an existing project, which is against Kickstarter's policy (as far as I'm aware).

I am still bitter about Battlefield Evolution getting the chop, Mongoose are dead to me!

that bike is way oversized. i'd love to see someone try to take a corner with that thing in real life

Great – another kickstarter! I'm sure real figures will be available for sale in no time!

i'd love to see someone try to take a corner with that thing in real life

Real life?
It is a fictional bike, from a fictional city, in a fictional world, it is not real….

…based on a COMIC BOOK! Sheesh.

That Lawmaster bike is beyond terrible. The Judge looks like a toddler sitting on a Harley-Davidson built with Meccano.

I would almost pay money for them NOT to make that model.

A Judge should look as if they are in charge(of everything):

This Mongoose thing fails to give me that impression. The sentence is….No Sale.

Should we set up an over/under poll on how close they come to their stated release date if they get funded?

A secondary on how long it takes for them to have to re-release to fix production issues?

Having said that, I very well may buy even an ugly Law Master or two to go with my Foundry Judge Dredd figs.

And lets remember, we DO get the rules for free at this point, that is mighty decent of them.

I'm willing to say that things happen and we should forgive.

But I don't buy the official stories, I was there, an everyday reader and contributor on their forums. I saw Matt write things and then the very next day claim the exact opposite, deleting threads that he had written earlier. Photo manipulation on the BFE model pictures, deleting posts that exposed his lies and all the while his fans complimenting his open and honest communication. The bad decisions, lousy quality control, lies and constantly changing stories got to be too much.
Yet, maybe he has changed. I don't know, I am willing to accept that he has if it's true.

The thing is, if you want to invest in this you have to ask yourself how much has changed. You have to look at the company's past and the continuing track record of lousy editing, no quality control and not any sense that he is interested in giving his customers value for their money.
You have to 'buy everything now' because who knows when a product line will just drop off. Mongoose isn't a company known for long term investment in their product lines, it's more of a factory that churns out licensed stuff to make a quick buck and then flip to the next thing.

You may be reading this and think I'm being unfair or jumping on the bandwagon. I just think people should be aware of what they are getting into. With so many miniatures companies giving great, good or even mediocre service to us, why invest in a company that has treated us poorly?

The mini looks absolutely idiotic to me, but to each their own.

Doug

I bought into Battlefield Evolution in a big way (and I'm still collecting the minis for a song now – I just paid £2.00 GBP for a box set that cost £20.00 GBP when new – the joy of Ebay) but I am really confused by some of the ACTA and ST players bitching about Mongoose dropping the lines. Whilst they had the licenses they put out a phenomenal amount of product for those lines, and product that was good quality too. Look at the plastic SST bugs and troops, the metal figures, the supplements, or the dozens and dozens of ship models and race books for ACTA. They put out a monthly FREE magazine PDF supporting all their games.

Sure, their editing isn't great, they need to get someone to proofread their proof before they go to print and products tend to slip, but just in sheer volume of product, I think they can't be beaten. If the licenses had remained with them it was clear they had big plans for both ranges. I'm also glad they have the Traveller license now, so that they could bring back my favourite game ever – 2300AD (plus I got to playtest it and my names in the front!)

I think the problems they had with their BFE pre-paints were beyond their control and partly they had the wool pulled over their eyes. It was denied and then badly handled to start with (although I think they are no worse than any of the other pre-paints out there and MUCH better than some), but was recognised as an issue eventually. It was a pretty brave decision to can the whole line when it was clear that the quality couldn't be improved within the costs and time scales they expected.

G.

but just in sheer volume of product, I think they can't be beaten.

Neither can McDonald's…

And McDonalds is very successful. In fact every McDonalds franchisee is successful.

There's zero excuse for bad editing when you can hire gamers with English degrees for minimum wage.

But it's ridiculous to complain about lines being discontinued. That's how businesses make money – by coming out with new products. Buy it when it's available if you want it – but don't complain when its time has passed.

That's kinda what I was saying. Don't confuse quantity with quality. Stalin's views notwithstanding ;-)

Sorry Guys but as far as I'm aware Mongoose never took money without delivering the goods, so their track record is pretty good there.

If you want some JD figs this therefore seems a reasonable bet.

The problem with Mongoose is they have too many lines and drop headline games if the licence gets ready for renewal, or they suddenly think they can take on the world and over commit.

The release of Dredd 3D has nothing to do with this of course………….

Judge Dredd. He is…the person who can get your lawn quite flat with his mechanised garden roller…

The sentence is….No Sale.

LOLOL

Okay, I probably should not post this, but I am always willing to take my licks.

Some of the points being made here are wholly inaccurate and, fundamentally, this all boils down to one thing.

Babylon 5, Starship Troopers and Battlefield Evolution have both been mentioned. The simple fact is that we were unable to sustain either longer than we did because, and I apologise for the caps but I want to be absolutely clear in this, we DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY to continue them.

Ultimately, that is the only reason we have ever cancelled a line. We run them as long as we are able to, but when they reach break even point or loss, we have to let them go. Put another way, if we had continued with any of those games, we would have gone bust within months. They were _that_ expensive and any other company would have done the same thing. They would have to.

On the other hand, if you were (say) a Babylon 5 fan, what else would you have wanted us to do? Over a 6 year period we produced something like 40 books and 200 different miniatures. When we saw that another licence period (another three years) was not financially possible, we let you all know months before we pulled the plug, plus gave a discount (even on already discounted items like fleet sets) to ensure you could complete your collections.

The reason people play our games is because we do produce good, fun, solid games – and we can understand that people get passionate about them, and upset when they disappear. However, going as far as actually blaming us for their life span is not reasonable. There was just no money to sustain them.

On the other hand, we have been running with Traveller for more than five years now, and have just signed up for a five year continuance. Judge Dredd is a licence we have had for ten years and the current game is building on the work we did with Gangs of Mega-City One. Victory at Sea is still going, to the extent that we are bringing out a complete miniatures line with it. Lone Wolf is another long-runner.

Ultimately, you have to understand that we are a small company with little to no resources beyond the people who work here. We try to do as much as we can with very, very little. As someone else here said, we have never taken money and run with it without delivering a product.

Pick on us for a bad miniature or a wonky army list, by all means. We always look to improve. But not for the fact that products have natural life spans and that when they dip below breaking even, we cannot afford to sustain them.

Those people attacking Mongoose for dropping licences really do need to grow up. There is a very unfortunate minority in wargaming who think the only reason companies should exist is to provide them with toys irrespective of business reality and that any company who dares to make a commercial decision should be shunned and stigmatized for ever more.

As far as I can see Mongoose have played things straight all the way through. Whilst they had the licences they supported them and produced figures and materials to the absolute best of their ability but at some point they had to decide it was no longer commercially viable. To attack them for making that decision is just infantile since the alternative would be to build up losses that would eventually shut the company down – something that has happened to way too many wargames companies in the past.

People really do need to get some perspective.

People really do need to get some perspective.

I said nothing about their numerous dropped licenses. My dislike for the company stems from their dishonesty, their constant backpedaling on release dates, their spotty quality control on their figures, and their lack of proper editing on their printed books. All of those issues have recurred repeatedly since they launched back in the early days of the d20 OGL, and they continue to plague them to this day. Just look at the launch debacle on the ACTA Star Fleet line if you want an up to date example.

It's quite clear that they will never change while the current management is in place.

You know – here's a point in their favor, on the honesty front, though – even if they do eventually drop them when the sales slow down, at least they are bothering to get the licenses for the IP they utilize in the first place. They are certainly plenty of miniature businesses that just steal it instead.

Doug

this is probably going to be the first Kickstarter I would sign up for.

now lets talk about my need for a 28mm Land Raider model to play the cursed earth campaign I've wanted to do since I was a kid.

CLR: Well, the first thing I should make you aware of is the current management has only been in place for a little over two years – I have been around since the start and have been the Internet Face of the company, but I haven't always been running the show. Only had complete control since we left Rebellion in 2010.

Backpedalling of release dates… well, it is never intentional and sometimes things are just impossible to do on a projected timeline. Remember, we have very few resources and so just throwing money at a problem (which would have worked for both Star Fleet and second wave Noble Armada, for example – and the Manta Prowl Tank, for that matter) is just not an option. Stuff _does_ come out, just not always when we first say it will. However, this being of great concern to me, we are starting to announce products only when we actually have them in our hand, rather than following projected design times. We cannot do that all at once, which is one reason things have been a bit spotty this year but, during 2013, we should in a position to be able to start to cite not only release months, but release days.

As for editing, we dropped our last in-house editor earlier this year. Now, every word in every book goes under my nose before it gets released. Book releases will therefore be a little slower but, given I have a greater vested interest in getting them right than an editor, they will be better. And you will know _exactly_ who to complain to if they are not…

TauboyMike: Yeah, I was looking at that :) Big model. Easy to put together as a 3D construct, but expensive to prototype. If the KS goes really well, we can talk about putting that one in as a stretch goal maybe :)

Sorry, forgot to mention…

Elsyrsyn: You are absolutely right and, considering just how much some of these licences cost (don't mind saying, Starship Troopers had an upfront cost of $100,000 USD – before we did any sculpting or plastic modelling – and Babylon 5 was not exactly cheap), we do find it rather irksome. You never see it with RPGs, but this kind of copying (and a lot of it is not 'sailing close to the wind,' there are plenty of outright rip-offs) is rampant with miniatures.

You never see it with RPGs, but this kind of copying (and a lot of it is not 'sailing close to the wind,' there are plenty of outright rip-offs) is rampant with miniatures.

Indeed, I at first wondered how you did not get sued.
Then it became clear, you were doing it properly.

Now, every word in every book goes under my nose before it gets released. Book releases will therefore be a little slower but, given I have a greater vested interest in getting them right than an editor, they will be better.

Hubris…

You are going to be too close to it, read it too often and see what you want vice what is there, and you will fail as a result. That is about the worst solution to your problem you could have thought of.

If I was writing it, you would be right. As it stands, I am doing exactly what any other editor would be doing, just with a little more motivation. It still gets proofed by someone else.

Sorry Matt, I wish you well with the whole project, and maybe I should just shrug and let it move on, but its a quiet day in the office here so…….having read your post about the reasons for ending some games – BF EVO for example, while I appreciate you ran out of money, shouldn't that have been calculated into the project at the start? OK it's history, and maybe it should be left and we all move on, but I would love to know what happened, in the same way we like watching train wrecks

BF EVO for example, while I appreciate you ran out of money, shouldn't that have been calculated into the project at the start?

Maybe it was, maybe not enough people bought the items to keep the range going.
Then when it was no longer available people said they WOULD have bought some.
Would have does not pay the bills though.

That is a possibility.
With Kickstarter however, people have to put their money where their mouth is.

Another possibility is a license agreement costing double to renew what it cost to start with.

Angel: You have the right of it. When you launch a new product line, especially one with large costs tied to it like a licensed product or one with pre-painted plastics, you take a risk – while you can make educated guesses, you cannot really know how many you are going to sell until things are on shop shelves. And, for the company, it is too late then if things go awry. That is what business is all about.

All you can really do is make something to the best of your abilities, with the resources available, and hope enough people agree with you that it is a good product to make that difference.

PilGrim, you ask a reasonable question. What it comes down to is looking at what a project is going to cost you and asking yourself if things go bad, will it bring down the whole company? If it is likely to then I, at least (others would do different) won't go for it. However, if it looks like a goer, you prep everything best you can, and see what happens.

Good when it goes right, can be hideous when it goes wrong.

The sculpting of the Judge looks fine. I do not like that bike. From the comic book perspective, it is out of scale with the driver. It makes the Judge look childlike.

Can't say that I've ever had any problems with Mongoose. I bought lots of Starship Troopers and thought the rules worked well. The sculpts were very good, especially the plastics.

As for this bike, I have to agree with the comments already made, it looks too big. The design looks fine, but the scale seems to be way out. I'll stick with my converted GW bikes for the moment, sorry.

Well seing as Matt was man enough to post on this, and I'm the idiot who started off this particular thread, I feel the need to say some more.

Firstly, Matt, I do accept your reasoning behind why things got canceled. If you're going to run yourself into the ground by continuing with a project it is best to just stop it before it goes any farther. Makes sence and I can totally see this as a viable option.

However, it does seem a bit odd that Mongoose has had to go down this road so many times before. So often that I can stir up a bunch of people with my somewhat snarky comment. Honest mistakes and all, but at this point it seems to streach credibility (sort of like Hamilton & Massa "coming together" so much in F-1 last season).

That all said, I do wish you success! Land Raider journy accross the Cursed Earth would be great to game. Just don't forget the seven P's.

Binky says "priorpropperplanningpreventspisspoorperformance"

Licensing rights is a very weird thing. If the item is recent it'll be astronomical. If it's older, it can sometimes go way down if you hit the right person.

One wonders if at some point it might actually make sesne to go back and ask the SST people how much?, seeing as no one else is buying the rights and they are just sitting there not bringing in any money. Although, I am sure all the lawyers will still insist that making SST underwear is worth a gazillion bucks!

Although to be honest, if I had $100,000 USD to spend in my mini company, I would darn sure invest the money in "Bugs! a new and exciting game of future combat!" instead. But then, every lauighed at my Roman Zombies…

As to kickstarter- there have been a number of projects that have not panned out, and people are starting to get a tad worried about the idea. If you hit your goal, get the money, and just do nothing (or claim you tried and failed) no one's going to come after you. I think eventually we will see Kickstarter HAVE to have some official policy that if the project does not happen within X amount of time – they will fund the legal challenge.

Hi Binky, thanks for coming back to me.

I get the Hamilton and Massa thing (good race yesterday, if you are a Hamilton fan), but I put it to you (!) that this is not the case.

We have been going for more than 11 years now, and we have been talking about, what, three games – two of which were licensed and thus have their own factors, the other pre-painted and eye-wateringly expensive in itself.

Weigh against that, Victory at Sea is still going on (and about to get its own range of minis), Judge Dredd is really a continuation of Gangs of MC-1 (in fact, we have had the JD licence for about ten years now), Traveller we took a 10 year licence on and have every intention of continuing it after that point. Even when RQ had a wobble, we found another way to carry on producing and supporting it.

We do have long-running games in our catalogue though, I grant you, it has been the really high profile ones that may have grabbed your attention in the minis market.

That said, we have modified our approach. We have a very different agreement with 2000AD than we did with, say Warner Brothers, and Victory at Sea is, of course, owned by us completely so there is no heavy licence payments. 'Big' licences are still possible, but we will approach them in a different way with no presumption (and creating no expectation) that they will always be there.