"15/18mm Blue Moon Ancient German Release" Topic

I think they would look great in big masses.

Just in time to have them still suck in FoG!

By the way, German research has indicated that this old idea about the appearance of ancient German warriors is more the exception than the rule. There was a very helpful little folio put out a few years ago by a German publisher -- in German but with lots of great plates. The actual look is vastly different from these models.

Care to expand on the differences?

…or provide a link to the book?

Damon.

Another great line.

Do these shields come attached or are they seperate?
-Paul

Just how big is the Blue Moon ancients range going to be? Are seeing the beginning of a full-fledged assault on the period?

I often wonder about these shields, which I get the impression were a Gallic design. Is there reason to believe Germans carried them as well?

The shields are separate and a variety come in the packs.

There maybe new research, but the wargame is use to seeing this type of figure. Until the new research catches on and changes the desire of gamer as well as how movies depict them, most will still stick to this style of figures.

Damn. Separate shields may very well be a deal killer for me.

Care to expand on the differences?

…or provide a link to the book?

Don't have the book with me at the mo but it was put out by the same people (a German publisher) who did one or two books on the Teutonic Order, really detailed stuff on appearance and organisation. I could look for it when home tonight (if I remember ) or perhaps someone else will chime in.

One thing I recall about the German warriors as depicted in the booklet was short pants combined IIRC with leggings of a very distinctive shape -- it appears that most depictions of Germans in Roman times were based on Gauls, or later German dress. I remember there being one or two other differences that really set them out from the typical wargaming models, all of which models to date seem to have been based on Phil Barker's considerably geriatric Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome.

I have seen this "look" depicted further back that the early 70's. "Geriatric"?

For myself seperate shields is a good thing as it will make these figs a little more useful for a variety of periods by giving them different shields. -Paul

No figures like these could be cast with the sheilds on in any scale.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Also, I have an actual photo of every German that lived in 56 BC and this is what they did actually looked like -- They all looked the exact same just like everyone at this very moment is dressed and looks the exact same in New York, London, Paris, LA, Etc. -- So we did get them right --- although I fear some of the figures hair and beards may be to long and on some of them way to short?
Don't ask to see the photo as I am forbidden to show it to anyone as spelled out by the actual owner who allowed me to use said photos for this project -- sorry.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Ha! Awesome.

And the figs look great. Thanks for producing them.

is it this serie you mean?
link

Separate shields are great! Saves me performing a few head-swaps to keep things fresh.

My compliments on the variation! And we need more axes, most just have swords and thrusting/throwing spears.

Blue Moon keeps the good stuff coming, and at an impressive pace.

While clothing or hairstyles, facial hair, etc can only be gleaned from written accounts or drawings which are rare or non-existent, things like shields, swords used can sometimes be determined by archaeological findings as the wood and metal used to make them sometimes survives.

That's why I was asking about the shields.

Regardless, they're great looking figures, no doubt.

I am pretty sure that the earliers Germans Sheilds were much like the Gauls.
Regards
Russ Dunaway

I thought pants were a Celtic thing. However, you could move more miniatures with a sale ad: Germans in pants half off!

Nurse Ratchett, Dunaway is off his meds again!

The shields are good as is,especially if the Germans are a group under heavy Celtic influence. If I recall correctly, the Germans further from Gaul would have had a shortage of metals and their shields would rarely have the butterfly-style iron boss, instead the shield would have a plain wooden spindle boss, a small wooden boss, or a round iron boss. I would think that most of the Germans fighting against Rome would initially be from the frontier region so might have Celtic-style shields.

In the case of clothing, Early German long trousers have been found preserved in a peat bog, so trousers are good. Again if memory serves, the Germans had more tightly-fitting trousers than the Celts, but info is really so sketchy it's hard to say 2000 years later. Caesar claimed only the upper classes had trousers and tunics while the commoners ran around naked except for cloaks, but he exaggerated often so who knows? By the 2nd Century AD at the latest the Germans appear fully clothed on Roman monuments.

What strikes me as odd here is that the recent release of the Warlords ancient germans, the much loved Foundry germans, and even the OG 25/28mm Germans --and in fact, every german range from this time period I have ever veiwed all generally look just like these and not a thing has ever been said along these lines?
Whatever -- I'm not saying -- I'm just saying ????
Regards
Russ Dunaway

It's just your turn?

link

9AD and legionaries in lorica segmentata no thanks…

The new figures look awesome, Russ! With the extensive cultural mingling and interaction among western Germans and Gauls that took place during the 1st century B.C., these are just as I would expect them to appear.

The earlier releases in the ancients line are excellent, and I will be placing an order for these very soon.

Cheers,
Scott

Russ--Valid point. As noted, it must be your turn. I'm no expert but they look like what I think they should look like.

and in fact, every german range from this time period I have ever veiwed all generally look just like these and not a thing has ever been said along these lines?

That's why old ideas about the appearance of ancient troops get perpetuated -- manufacturers copy the models in the market when making their own.

That explains why Sassanids so often look exactly the same -- Phil Barker showed the horseman from the Taqe Bostan relief in his book, that got copied, then other companies just copied existing models. Meanwhile virtually everyone who has reviewed Sassanid military history, both historians and gamers, has found that the Taqe Bostan depiction was more an anomaly at the end of the dynasty than a typical depiction. Same goes for Middle Period Byzantines, etc.

That just kept happening until gamers and historians made enough noise that the modelmakers listened, and now we have more accurate ranges of Sassanids, Byzantines, etc.

Sure you can say they are just toy soldiers so what's the harm. I agree. But at the same time they are historical figurines so it's nice to have them reflect current opinion on appearance, and when they do so they set your range out from other ranges.

Why should we automatically assume the "newest" so called thought is correct and then suggest everything else to that point is wrong?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

New ideas are published on a regular basis. While a few of them stand the test of time and permanently change our understanding of the historical and archaeological record, the vast majority do not. Knowledge is advanced only when new hypotheses are subjected to rigorous testing and review.

porfirio rubirosa – Could you please cite the specific source(s) for the new ideas you have mentioned, along with the evidence upon which their findings were based? I would like to review and test them for myself.

Many thanks,
Scott

New ideas are published on a regular basis. While a few of them stand the test of time and permanently change our understanding of the historical and archaeological record, the vast majority do not.

That might be true about science but rarely is about history.

Could you please cite the specific source(s) for the new ideas you have mentioned, along with the evidence upon which their findings were based? I would like to review and test them for myself.

Sure, here it is:

Das Heer des Arminius, Germanische Krieger zu beginn des 1. Nachchristlichen Jahrhunderts, authors Strassmeir/Gagelmann, publisher Zeughaus Verlag (2009). Test away!

Well --You make yours the way you want and I'll make mine the way I want -- thats fair enough I would think?
Regards
Russ Dunaway

Sure, here it is:

Das Heer des Arminius, Germanische Krieger zu beginn des 1. Nachchristlichen Jahrhunderts, authors Strassmeir/Gagelmann, publisher Zeughaus Verlag (2009). Test away!

Thanks for that. And now for a bit of preliminary analysis…

Here is the title on the Amazon.de web site:
link

At first glance, it appears to be a German Osprey-style book about the Cherusci and other tribes involved with the Teutoburger Wald ambush in AD 9. From the publisher description, it does sound rather interesting. From What I could glean online, Andreas Gagelmann appears to be an "independent academic" with interests in Roman military history and archaeology, Iron Age weapons, and ancient helmets.

Here is the cover illustration for the book:

This figure (Arminius?) wears a 'checked' cloak over a long-sleeved tunic and trousers, which appears to be quite consistent with the figures in the new Blue Moon line.

Here is a drawing of a "standard bearer of the Cherusci," also from the book:

This figure wears a fur cloak, a sleeveless tunic over a long-sleeved one, mid-calf breeches and wrapped leggings. To me, this looks like a cross between a 1st-century German and a 5th-century Frank. I would love to see the evidence for the breeches and leggings.

For comparison, here is a pic of a group of modern German reenactors dressed as ancient Germani:

Here are some historical reenactors dressed as Suebi:

And finally, here is a group of historical reenactors from South Carolina dressed as members of the Cherusci tribe:

Again, the clothing worn by the reenactors is quite consistent with that depicted in the new Blue Moon figures.

So bottom line… there is some possible variation in trousers vs. breeches with leggings, but even the cover image from the cited book depicts clothing that is consistent with the new Blue Moon figure line. In truth, I really can't see what the fuss is all about.

Cheers,
Scott

All that being said --I must admiit that I am just a guy that is really fond of pants ????
Regards
Russ Dunaway

A Lot of Gaul, I've provided the cite per your request, so I'd hope you would look at (and perhaps even read) the book. I hope you understand that the figure of the Romanised-German leader of the revolt on the cover of the book is not representative of the tribal warriors in the army.

Were you to look at the book, you'd see considerably different costume worn by the Krieger than that depicted on the cover, or by these models.

As to recreationists, well, the way these chaps dress is not really evidence of anything, I hope you realise.

porfirio rubirosa -

I may go out and purchase this rather expensive German Osprey-style book, or I may not. It all depends on whether I deem it to be worth the cost. You claim to be familiar with the book, so you can help me with my decision.

What do experts in the field think about the author's "vastly different" ideas and the accompanying illustrations? It looks like a hobby-related book rather than an academic publication. Has the author's work ever been subject to peer review at all?

I could only find two images from the book on the web. You say that they are "not representative" of the others. So, what do the other illustrations actually look like? Upon what evidence are they based? Can you provide some digital images of these "vastly different" illustrations?

Thus far, all you have managed to provide are some vague, unsubstantiated claims about how the author of this single, hobby-oriented, Osprey-type book depicts ancient German dress in a way that is "vastly different" from what everyone else understands to be the case, and that anything to the contrary – including the book author's own cover illustration – is either "not representative," or "not really evidence of anything." Sorry, but those statements on their own do not amount to evidence, either.

So, please do provide us with some details about the author's "vastly different" ideas and illustrations. And most importantly, please provide some actual, verifiable evidence that would clearly demonstrate why his ideas and illustrations are correct, and why everyone else's are wrong.

Meanwhile, I will be purchasing more of the Blue Moon ancient Germans. I already know that they are definitely worth the money!

Here is some visual evidence for the appearance of ancient German warriors from the 1st – 3rd century AD:

The Gemma Augustea (c. AD 10-20):

Relief from the Arch of Orange (c. AD 27):

Relief from the Column of Marcus Aurelius (c. AD 176-193):

Relief from the Portonaccio Sarcophagus (c. AD 190-200)

Relief from the Ludovisi Battle Sarcophagus (c. AD 250-260):

Reconstruction of clothing from the bog find at Thorsberg in Schleswig-Holstein (c. 1st – 3rd century AD):

link

I managed to find a third illustration online from Das Heer des Arminius, apparently also based on the Thorsberg bog find:

As with most of the others above, the clothing in this image appears to be pretty consistent with the new Blue Moon figures, at least to me.