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"'Hobbits' Declared a New Species!!!" Topic


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Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2007 5:42 a.m. PST

I guess it is official (for now):

link
technocrat.net/d/2007/1/29/13933
TMP link

Think of the Pulp, Prehistoric and other gaming possibilities . . .

link
link

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link

GrimeyGames30 Jan 2007 6:32 a.m. PST

Amazing. That was a pretty good article

Landorl30 Jan 2007 6:58 a.m. PST

Hmmmm… Maybe The Lord of The Rings isn't fiction after all…

Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2007 7:53 a.m. PST

Here is that LiveScience article.

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Hobbit Declared a New Species as Debate Continues
Ker Than
LiveScience Staff Writer
LiveScience.com
Mon Jan 29, 5:40 PM ET

New computerized casts of abnormally small Homo sapiens brains are reigniting the debate over the skeletal remains nicknamed "The Hobbit."

Ever since the 18,000-year-old remains of the three-foot-tall adult female hominid were unearthed in 2003 on the remote Indonesian island of Flores, scientists have argued whether the specimen was a human with an abnormally small head or represents a new species in the human family tree. The diminutive creature [image] had a brain approximately one-third the size of modern adult humans.

Some scientists named the specimen Homo floresiensis, a dwarfed offshoot of Homo erectus, a human ancestor that lived as far back as 1.8 million years ago.

Critics dismissed the remains as that of a human with a pathological condition called microcephalia, characterized by a small head, short stature and varying degrees of mental retardation.

A vote for "new species"

In the latest study, the evidence supports the claim of a new species. A team of scientists led by Dean Falk, a paleoneurologist at Florida State University, compared computer-generated three-dimensional reconstructions, called "endocasts," of brains from nine microcephalic modern humans with those of 10 normal modern-human brains [image].

"We asked, ‘Is there anything other than size of the brain that separates these two groups?'" Falk said.

According to the researchers, the answer is "yes." They found that two ratios, created using different skull measurements, could be used to accurately distinguish the normal humans from the microcephalics [image] nearly 100 percent of the time.

For example, dividing the distance from the front of the frontal lobe to the back of the occipital lobe of the brain by the front of the frontal lobe to the back of the cerebellum gives a ratio that reveals how much the cerebellum protrudes from the back of the brain.

"In microcephalics, the cerebellum tends to stick out farther back than in normal people," Falk told LiveScience. "We were able to quantify this with a ratio."

The other ratio quantified how wide the frontal lobes were for each skull and, according to the researchers, also could be used to distinguish normal humans from microcephalics.

Falk's team then applied this classification system to a virtual endocast of the skull of LB1. According to the researchers, LB1's features are closer to a normal human skull than to a microcephalic.

"We have answered the people who contend that the Hobbit is a microcephalic," Falk said.

As a control, the researchers also analyzed the skull of a human dwarf that, like LB1, also stood at about 3 feet tall. The technique correctly placed the dwarf skull in the same category as normal humans.

The team's findings are detailed in the Jan. 30 issue of the journal for the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Questions remain

While the new technique suggests LB1 was not a microcephalic, it does not rule out that it was not a Homo sapiens. As evidence of that, Falk points to what she says are several advanced features of LB1's brain that are unlike those of modern humans or any other known hominid species.

"What we have is a little tiny brain that has four features that you can see with your eyes that are advanced and distributed from front to middle to back," Falk said. "In other words, this thing appears to be globally rewired. Those are really advanced features. They're not like humans, they're not like anything."

Robert Martin, curator of Biological Anthropology at the Field Museum in Chicago, is not convinced by the new evidence.

One of his major criticisms has to do with the sample of microcephalic skulls the team used.

"They're being a bit naughty about this," Martin said in a telephone interview. "Four of the nine microcephalics were not adults."

Falk's team maintains their inclusion of young skulls is justified because microcephalics are generally believed to achieve maximum cranial capacity by around four years of age.

Martin, who criticized a similar comparison done by Falk's team in 2005 as flawed, again disagrees.

"What we're saying is LB1 was definitely an adult. If LB1 was a microcephalic, he was one with a mild condition who managed to survive into adulthood," he said. "So the proper comparison is with microcephalics with a mild condition who were adults."

"I don't have any problems with having new hominid species," Martin added. "I just don't think this is one of them."

Another expert in the field, Bernard Wood of George Washington University, spoke in favor of Falk's research.

"Dean Falk and her colleagues have injected some much needed scientific rigor into the debate about the brain of Homo floresiensis," Wood said. "The show that the microencephaly 'explanation' for its size and morphology is untenable. I hope we can now get down to the important task of trying to understand the biology of H. floresiensis without the distraction of non-existent pathology."

Goldwyrm30 Jan 2007 8:42 a.m. PST

But what did they taste like?

Broadsword30 Jan 2007 8:53 a.m. PST

Like chicken?

Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2007 8:56 a.m. PST

Maybe like "short pork"?

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advocate Supporting Member of TMP30 Jan 2007 9:03 a.m. PST

Are Foundry hobbits and Copplestone hobbits the same species?

Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2007 9:19 a.m. PST

LOL.

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Napoleon III30 Jan 2007 11:16 a.m. PST

Hmmm…

"Falk points to what she says are several advanced features of LB1's brain that are unlike those of modern humans or any other known hominid species.

"What we have is a little tiny brain that has four features that you can see with your eyes that are advanced and distributed from front to middle to back," Falk said. "In other words, this thing appears to be globally rewired. Those are really advanced features. They're not like humans, they're not like anything." "

Maybe they weren't "hobbits", maybe they weren't a new species (too few in total?) or simply microcephalics (too many in one "community"?).

Maybe they are the remains of a crew of alien "grays" that crashed here c.18,000 years ago, and were stranded until, eventually, they all died here?? Whose to say "grays" have only been coming here recently??

I like it… evil grin

Woodland30 Jan 2007 11:50 a.m. PST

AARGH! BUGGED AGAIN!

===Maybe The Lord of The Rings isn't fiction after all…===

I have a rubbish book about UFOs saying that they come from the hollow centre of the Earth. On the back cover it says: "Did Tolkien's Middle Earth have a factual basis?" D'oh!

===or simply microcephalics===

The new story is that that is absolutely not the case. Though, of course, there may be another return shot from the pro-microcephalic school.

===Maybe they are the remains of a crew of alien "grays" that crashed here c.18,000 years ago,===

Similar concept to Elfquest, except that they were little elves not greys. Certainly could make a game out of it.

Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2007 11:53 a.m. PST

Napoleon,

You might be right about the Aliens.

These used to be Foundry Pygmies. But, with a little green Alien DNA (Green-Stuff), the metamorphosis was complete:

link
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That poor Copplestone caveman never knew what hit him!

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Cacique Caribe30 Jan 2007 12:02 p.m. PST

There sure was a definite line between the two camps (pro and against microcephaly) the first time the topic was brought up here:

TMP link

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PS. At least I think that was the first time Floresiensis was brought to our attention.

bsrlee31 Jan 2007 6:41 a.m. PST

I've seen the original excavatio photos & spoken to some of the excavators. I note that 'Martin'- if quoted correctly – is ignorant of even the gender of LB1, so I wouldn't put too much credence in his comments.

The 'Microcephalic' camp seems to be being supplied with 'information' and organized by the same bozo who tried to destroy the original material – he smashed most of the large bones and contaminated other with organics so they could not be used for DNA & c14 testing.

Luckily all the major bones that were damaged had been extensively computer scanned & he didn't know about it untill he stuck his foot in it, but there are still a fair number of academics who are supporting him, possibly because there is no chance of getting their names up in lights otherwise.

Cacique Caribe31 Jan 2007 6:58 a.m. PST

Though this won't change the facts (when they are all in that is) and the final determination, I hope they are a new species and that it broadens our understanding of early humans as a whole.

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Cacique Caribe31 Jan 2007 7:04 a.m. PST

I still think that any major remains should be thoroughly scanned and resin cast, and that copies of the pieces should be sent to major institutions to assemble and to attempt tissue/muscle reconstruction models. Then, and only then, they should compare their results and findings.

However, since the motivations are usually not the advancement of science but, instead, the advancement of individual careers and procurement of grants, I suspect this will never happen.

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Cacique Caribe31 Jan 2007 8:01 p.m. PST

Just in, about the dig sites . . .

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--------------------------

Cavern may hold answers to hobbits riddle
By Leigh Dayton
January 30, 2007 07:30am

THE chance discovery of an enormous chamber beneath the Indonesian cave where hobbit-like creatures were discovered promises to settle the debate about who – or what – the tiny creatures were.

Scientists are confident the mystery will be solved if they can extract DNA from hobbit remains they expect to find among the rubble of 32,000- to 80,000-year-old bones and stone tools littering the cavern floor.

"Well, well, well, well, well; this will settle the matter," said Colin Groves, a physical anthropologist at the Australian National University in Canberra.

He said obtaining a CSI-style DNA-profile of the 1m-tall creatures – named Homo floresiensis – would prove conclusively if they were members of a new human species, as their discoverers claimed, or deformed modern people, as alleged by sceptics.

The original hobbit remains, found four years ago, have so far failed to yield any DNA.

The Australian learned of the new chamber and its DNA potential yesterday, just as international scientists reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science that they had compared a series of normal and abnormal human skulls with that of the hobbit and found that the hobbit was not an abnormal modern human.

The unexpected discovery of a chamber in the Flores island cave was made last year by an Australian-Indonesian team – led by ANU paleoclimatologist Mike Gagan – while they were investigating ancient climates.

An expert caver assisting in sample retrieval abseiled down a 23m-long sinkhole, inaccessible to the original team, at the back of Liang Bua Cave and found the chamber.

"I'd be very surprised if hobbits didn't fall down there," said archeologist Mike Morwood, co-leader of the team that discovered the hobbits.

"If they get (uncontaminated) bone and DNA out of there, it would be mind-boggling," said Professor Morwood, of Wollongong University.

According to Dr Gagan, they found bones of numerous species, from stegodons and giant rats to pigs and primates. Many showed evidence of butchery.

"The bones are also in pristine condition," he said.

Dr Gagan said he and his Indonesian colleagues surveyed just the top 5cm of a 5m-deep layer of mud in the 430sq m cavern. "Imagine what's below," he said. "It might have been a split-level home for hobbits."

Dr Gagan's team will return to the cave in June, with additional members, including Alan Cooper, an expert in ancient DNA with Adelaide University, and CSIRO mammalogist Ken Aplin. Professor Morwood's group will also return to Liang Bua this year, after previously being denied access by Indonesian officials.

Both groups will continue to collaborate with the Indonesian National Research Centre for Archaeology. Dr Gagan's group is also working with the Indonesian Institute of Sciences.

link

aka001set01 Feb 2007 6:14 p.m. PST

I agree it would be nice if it broadened our understanding of early humans.

Didn't they interview the little people who currently live there now too?

Cacique Caribe03 Feb 2007 10:34 p.m. PST

I think they were interviewed, since they claim that a small primate still inhabits their island:

TMP link

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Cacique Caribe25 Mar 2007 8:46 p.m. PST

It will be very hard for the microcephalic theory proponents to explain how a group of similar beings ended up in the cave.

A single individual was plausible. A colony of microcephalics, not very likely. Study of the other remains might blow that theory out of the water.

I can't wait to see what they discover in the other caves.

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Cacique Caribe18 Apr 2007 4:38 a.m. PST

Latest . . .

link

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Cacique Caribe02 May 2007 9:53 a.m. PST

Now there's a push to create the area around the first cave a World Heritage Site:

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Cacique Caribe24 Sep 2007 8:24 p.m. PST

Some of you might find this interesting . . .

link

Too many pieces of evidence from the 9 specimens found show that it was not simply a diseased member of the Sapiens family.

Man, I'm so glad I made my Floresiensis more ape-looking:

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