"Ratio of grays to butternuts?" Topic

I recently my first batch of Battle Honors Confederate infantry, and I'm preparing them for painting. (Well, I I'm doing as much I can before I have to paint.) I was wondering, what would be a reasonable ratio of grays to butternuts in a brigade? How many regiments would have butternut as opposed to gray? Thanks for the help!

Well, after looking through a few threads I answered my own question. I guess I'm going with all gray.

It varied a lot. The western armies, Army of Tennessee etc. probably had more butternut. Lee's ANV was getting imported gray uniforms almost until the very end. But the western troops sometimes got gray stuff from state depots and such. If you go to the Chickamauga battlefield center they'll show you AofT soldiers in light butternut -- more white than yellow -- and Longstreet's corps in the dark grey (almost blue)they were issued during the railroad trip from Va to Georgia.

I like to do different ideas for different divisions where I can. Most of Early's command is mixed, Longstreet Corps is in mostly gray (as in my heart they are more elite). I like a mix and with Old Glory I think they look better. As for historical ANV would be better uniformed.
VR
James Mattes

First of all, there is no way to know.

Uniform researchers in recent years have concluded that the Rebel army got grayer and more uniform as the war went on, contrary to Hollywood and popular belief, which gives the Confederates the Jed Clampert look (looking like Hillbillies).
A lot of factors are involved, especially time during the war. For instance, early-war armies would have more butternut-dyed uniforms from home. For instance, Lee's men were extraordinarily ragged during the Antiietam campaign.
Shoes were always the first thing to wear out. Distance from home was another factor; Texan's and Mississipians in Lee's army, for instance. probably looked poor until the government depot system began to supply uniforms regularly in 1864 & 1865.
North Carolinians always seemed to be well-supplied with state-provided garb. Their could be regional variations. I think the Army of Tennessee preferred piping and facings of blue or black.
Two other strange phenomenon: Confederates were not adverse, at times, to grabbing Union uniforms. The pants were a natural, but it could be extra dangerous to wear Union blue coats, but some did. Also, thanks to the effect of sunlight, not washing their clothes, and poor dyes, gray uniforms can become brownish, that is, butternut!
I have my own men in the mix used at Gettysburg. I strongly recommend basing your colors on the uniforms shown in Don Troiani prints. He does excellent research, and has published several collections of his art.

Here's a favorite anecdote:

During the march of the armies to Gettysburg, a pro-Confederate Pennsylvania woman went to the road to cheer the gray soldiers, many barefoot, marching North. Then she was horrified to see that they carried the Stars and Stripes.

They were Union soldiers covered with dust. There are several recorded instances of officers mistaking enemy troops for their own.
You know where this leads? We must paint all our figures in dusty shades!

Does anyone remember that episode from THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY?

There was the Rebel unit at Shiloh, Texans I think, who wore unbleached woolens, an off-white. A Union officer asked who were those fanatics who charged us in their grave clothes?

Thanks for the help guys. I'm still trying to decide which divison I'll start with. I've only got enough figures to make about 4 or 5 regiments, so I still have time to decide I guess.

"There was the Rebel unit at Shiloh, Texans I think, who wore unbleached woolens, an off-white. A Union officer asked who were those fanatics who charged us in their grave clothes?"

The version I heard was it was a Louisiana outfit in blue coats. They got tired of friendly fire and turned their coats inside out, showing the white lining and getting that remark. I don't recall is this was at Shiloh or the Seven days.

Dan's points are VERY good. Also remember that NC warehouses seemed to be well stocked and they refused to share the wealth with other states regardless of their needs. In Sherman's march north through the Carolinas, NC troops got brand new uniforms and great coats while the rest of Johnston's army had rags.

Thanks for the help guys! I'll be painting my Confederates in gray then, because I plan to try and build my army up to Longstreet's Corps.

doc mcb 11 Jan 2007 11:16 a.m. PST
Does anyone remember that episode from THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY?

*NJH: One of my favorite scenes – "God hates idiots." I really enjoy the "deadpan" face of the Union Cavalry Commander as he slowly knocks off the dust with his gauntlets.

Oh two points come to mind here as well. Remember that famous photo of the three confederate POWs after Gettysburg. None were in uniform.

Point two. By far my most favorite uniform is from a Cpt (forget the name) in 5th Tx Cav who wore Leopard skin chaps. I have got to paint one of those. I have a copy of the CDV in one of my collectors books. Will have to go find it tonight.

Too bad we can not post images to TMP…

VR
James Mattes

At least here is a link:

picture

I will look for the other image on line of the Texas Ranger.
VR
James Mattes

Found the image, It is Captain Samuel J. Richardson a Texas Cavalryman jaguar not leopard skin and it was overalls and Pistol holsters. It is from the Alexander Campbell collection in Libary of Congress USAHMI. I have it in a book by Guidon Press Photos of American Civil War Cavalry bu Andrews, Nelson, Brian Pohanka, and Roach Page 18.

VR
James Mattes

None were in uniform.

The chap in the middle is wearing a gray shell jacket and gray trousers.
The other two are in shirt sleeves, so it's hard to tell but it looks like the guy on the left has gray trousers and a gray jacket slung over his shoulder.

Regardless, research has shown Confederate units were far better supplied with uniforms than was thought in the past.

As far as butternut goes, I was under the impression Geoff Walden had shown most of the supposed "butternut" Columbus Depot jackets were originally gray.

Ben Tart's gray jean fairly quickly takes on a brownish hue, especially when caked in dust.

Here is a pic of the Texas cavalry chap. I had found a better one a long time back but can't seem to turn it up now. This one is kind of small

picture

Yes that is him! Wish I could find a larger one.
VR
James Mattes

Its out there somewhere, I ran across it a year or two ago online. Just haven't been able to relocate it.
That pic is also in Echoes Of Glory I seem to recall.

If anyone has a larger version of that image I would be indebted.

The unit at Shiloh was the 2nd Texas Infantry who later won much glory without victory at Corinth and Vicksburg. They were my first reenactment unit. After Vicksburg they were exchanged west of the Mississippi and garrisoned the Galveston area. Their CO Ashbel Smith founded the UT Medical school at Galveston.

Shag could be correct, but I was about to say it was the 18th LA at Shiloh. They were issued blue frock coats in New Orleans and turned them inside out, according to their surgeon.

Is it likely that CSA troops were better uniformed and equipped when they were defending closer to their supply depots in the South, but became very ragged and unkempt during a few of their famous offensives in the North that we know a lot about (Sharpsburg, Gettysburg,maybe KY late 1862?? They would have strained fragile CSA resupply efforts at long distance! Maybe this is a factor in the "Ragged Rebels" concept that could make both sides of the discussion have valid points!

Paint 'em the way you like.

Photo of that Texas cavalryman, Captain Samuel Richardson (3rd Texas?) is in Echoes of Glory (Conf) page 147.

James, you have inspired me to take up the challenge! I'll make a try at painting him (in 15mm).

Back on topic…I like to use the artwork of Troiani, Kunstler, and Rick Reeves as painting guides. I refrain from mixing butternuts & grays within the same unit. That is less likely to have occurred, regardless of what you might observe with many reenacting units, (and hence the movies!)

Larry GettysburgSoldiers.com

Larry put me down for one if you do him mounted!
VR
James Mattes

I knew it was in there somewhere Larry, sadly I lent my set out a few years ago and it never came home…

I'm trying to find out more about him…without much luck so far.

Could this be the same fellow? (near bottom of page:
RICHARDSON'S INDEPENDENT COMPANY OF TEXAS CAVALRY
Capt. Samuel Richardson cmdg

link

Larry