"Flames of War - worth getting?" Topic

Hmm, sounds like real battle theory and tactics being used on a table top. Real oob's were used, including taking into account losses before the table top battle started. As the action was portraying the spear heads after they punched thru the initial lines. Very little divisional support was available.

You still haven't told us what area of ground was modeled on your 12'x6' table?

wwiiogre wrote re straw men:

I was actually referring to current rules systems used and supported by people frequenting this column and posting negative comments about FoW.

I know fine well what you were referring to. But your comment re "I am not a person that likes or has the time to look at three different charts, roll four different types of dice and then go back to four more charts to see what happened." is a straw man argument. Or can you name a set of rules that involves such an arcane procedure?

Intellectually Dishonest' to me is a person coming to a gaming community and asking a question about a certain game. But, he does not want an answer, he merely posed the question as an attempt to attack the game and its mechanics.
That same person later comes back and states that people that play FoW must be intellectually inferior and or have little experience with other rules systems.

I feel like I'm being subject to a personal attack. But I might be misreading what you're saying.

I'm going to give you three options here.

1) State publicly that's not me your talking about there re the "intellectually inferior" bit (you have accused me of being "intellectually dishonest" in the past).

2) Find a quote where I have said anything about people who play FoW being "intellectually inferior". (I don't recall saying anything about FoW fans having little experience with other (better?) rules systems either, but I can live with that)

3) Get reported to the management for a personal attack and hopefully spend some time in the Dawghouse.

In the end, FoW is a game. Since I own it, I can play it anyway I want. I have organized official FoW tournaments using the rules by rote. I don't generally play that way.

So what you are saying is you think FoW is a great game, but don't really play it?! You play your own variant. I remember Gary Gygax waxing lyrical many years ago about people who claimed to play D&D, but added their own rules or changed the official rules. His point was they don't really play D&D.

I think some people are just reading what they want to read. There's nothing insulting about saying that while a game may not be what you're into, but it's fine for others.

I regularly talk to people from the UK that are playing FoW. That play with a large group and that go to competitions and tournaments. Must be more than a handful of players in the UK playing the game.

Not neccessarily. You have to appreciate that the UK scene is quite different to the US one. There are still people playing 6th edition WRG ancients tournaments in the UK, but it is really a handfull of people. Because the UK is so compact you can get to all the tournaments for your particular set of rules, which means that the critical number of tournament players nationally needed to be able to run such competitions is much, much lower than for the US.

How many people were at the Metal Storm National Tournament in the US this year? How many copies of Metal Storm were sold in the US this year?

Which has got exactly what to do with anything? They are rubbish rules, because there is no US tournament? Oh come on! Given that Metal Storm has been out a few weeks and FoW for several years though that is hardly surprising! As for the number of copies sold in the US you would have to ask Roy, but he has sold quite a few I think.

Derek,

1. 1) State publicly that's not me your talking about there re the "intellectually inferior" bit (you have accused me of being "intellectually dishonest" in the past).

1. the answer:I never referred to you as intellectually inferior. In fact that quote was about the comments made about FoW only appealing to new and inexperienced players. As for Intellectually Dishonest, that is not an insult merely an observation of your debating style based on the Scale topic you posted and the responses you made to anyone that honestly tried to answer those questions.

2. 2) Find a quote where I have said anything about people who play FoW being "intellectually inferior". (I don't recall saying anything about FoW fans having little experience with other (better?) rules systems either, but I can live with that)

(the intellectually inferior statement has to do with comments that have since been deleted. They were insulting to me and anyone else that plays FoW) Which is funny since you already knew that specific post has been deleted.

3. 3) Get reported to the management for a personal attack and hopefully spend some time in the Dawghouse.

3. Answer: as for that threat. I find it incredibly funny considering the below post you made. If anyone needs to be reported for abusing this forum it would be you and your continued attack pieces poorly disguised as humor.

In this forum under the topic Rules Discussion you posted this:

Derek wrote:

'I've finall cracked how it works. With a bit of help from Lewis Carroll.

When I make a measurement playing Flames of War,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it represents just what distance I choose it to in real life, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make similar measurements on the table represent so many different distances in real life.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master – that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them – particularly artillery ranges, they're the proudest – movement rates you can do anything with, but not frontages – however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

End of Quote

---------------------

I am curious how that is actually appropriate in the topic of Rules Discussion. That is not a question per se, merely an attempt at a clever insult.

I feel that entire thread should be taken down and you should be warned for your constant pushing of the envelope. I could not find a single post in that thread where you showed intent to understand FoW scale. I answered your questions and you merely avoided them or cherry picked a line.

In FoW terms 1" = everything and nothing
In FoW terms 1 turn equals a second or infinity

In reality ranges are effective combat distances as compared to movement under fire. Turns are the amount of time it took for something decisive to happen. Move/fire/assault etc.

Simple, the hardest thing to do with rules.

You may report me at your leizure. It will be funny watching what happens. Similar to the way you stir up FoW discussion in the form of an attack. Merely to watch the pot boil.

Chris

Fred,

I have met Mr. Gygax and run a TSR tournament for DnD. He wrote the forward to a rules system for a friend of mine. That reference is silly.

If you use the base mechanics of a system, you are using the system. I roleplay once a week, we still call it DnD, even tho it is a hibred of many systems and even versions of the same system.

We use FoW mechanics, we use their lists and points system mostly, we generally do not use their mission system. That was truly setup for tournament play. WE use it during tournaments.

I know few people that do not tinker with rules, adding something that was missed, ignoring something that does not apply. Adjusting it for actual units owned or available to the players at the moment or proxying units when necessary.

In the end, whichever base mechanics you use that is the game you are playing.

Anyone that plays FoW would be able to join in the game we have planned in a few weeks and have no problems. All normal mission parameters might be changed or adjusted but the concepts will still be in use.

How to move, how to shoot, how to save, how to assault, etc. Is FoW. Those are the concepts that matter.

Bad weather rules have already been used in FoW tourneys that I know about, so nothing new from us.

As for my comment about Metal Storm it was to make a point.My apologies to Roy, as that was an unfair statement. The point being it is not really available to play on a large scale. Very similar to most of the rules systems discussed. I spent six months looking at every available table top WWII rules system.

The game I wanted to play needed to be accessible. Both to buy and to play. It needed to be played in a short time, but have the ability to expand to bigger games. It had to have models of the highest quality. The company needed to support the game and its customers. FoW was all that and more. They even allowed you to use other models than their own. Gave away tons of free stuff on their website.

After two years I can say I made the right decision. It is still stocked by all the Local Game stores that started it over two years ago. It is also now stocked by others as well. The player base has grown in this area and not dwindled. Exactly what I was looking for in a hobby.

I personally am disabled and playing a game for more than 4 hours is a struggle and usually ends up with me in bedrest for 24+ hours. So I get to play those big games less often than I would like. Most of my play time is devoted to teaching others the game. I have two regular opponents that will play small skirmish games with me periodically. 1-2 hours

Chris

I have met Mr. Gygax and run a TSR tournament for DnD. He wrote the forward to a rules system for a friend of mine. That reference is silly.

Well next time you see him, you can tell him. :-)

If you use the base mechanics of a system, you are using the system. I roleplay once a week, we still call it DnD, even tho it is a hibred of many systems and even versions of the same system.

Hmmmm! How much of a system can you change and still say you are you using that system? With D&D once you change the combat system and the magic rules (as was commonly done by tinkerers) how much of D&D are you actually playing?

I know few people that do not tinker with rules, adding something that was missed, ignoring something that does not apply. Adjusting it for actual units owned or available to the players at the moment or proxying units when necessary.<q/>

Most of that is not really tinkering though is it? Some of the tinkering I've encountered with FoW are such things as changing the combat system to use D10 or D20's, adding op fire rules etc. In a sense BF are doing the tinkering for you as each book has some new rules in it.

The game I wanted to play needed to be accessible. Both to buy and to play. It needed to be played in a short time, but have the ability to expand to bigger games.<q/>

6 hour games would be considered marathons here. 2-3 hours tops for a typical club game.

It had to have models of the highest quality.

Not unique to FoW though. Lots of good quality 15mm WW2 stuff out there, which you can use for any rules set. You can even use the FoW basing for games like IABSM and Metal Storm if you want.

The company needed to support the game and its customers.

Are you referring to the rules or the models there? I play several different sets of rules and all of them have good online support. Roy, for all his faults, is very good at supporting Metal Storm.

FoW was all that and more. They even allowed you to use other models than their own.<q/>

Most companies do, or they don't have models to sell in the first place! It is only GW that do that.

Gave away tons of free stuff on their website.<q/>

Are you talking about free rules updates or free models? If it is the latter I've missed out there!

They have given out free rules, free cardboard cutouts, free army lists and on and on.

I have not tinkered with the dice or any of that. The base mechanics stay the same. TSR had many faults and alot of them were very basic. I do not use the hit point system DnD had and still uses to this day. It is silly in my opinion. But, its like flavors.

The FoW we play in this area is mechanically the same as the rules as written. We generally do not use the mission system, which are merely recommended ways to play the game. We generally do not use heroes either, as we do not find a place for them at the company level. We allowed them in the local tournament, yet nobody used them.

So I would say we play FoW+, you couldn't mistake it for any other game. But, we have added things where necessary to match up to historical battles and what if scenarios. BF does this all the time in their own writeups on the website.

I own models from many different mfgs and have no complaints about any of them. None of them have remained perfect, all have had missing parts, flash, wrong pieces, been mislabeled. I have never had a company refuse to fix what was wrong. Most of them have thrown in extra bits in the end.

Currently FoW works for my situation and I would recommend it to others. I also would ask them to watch it played, play in a demo, use proxy models first. Borrow books and read it, read the forum online, ask questions. Then after all of that, if you like it, then spend money on the game. I have loaned my own books and miniatures to new players for months at a time. Some have liked the game, others have walked. It really is a personal taste thing in the end.

Chris

wwiiogre wrote

In FoW terms 1" = everything and nothing
In FoW terms 1 turn equals a second or infinity

In another thread TMP link Dumpty said

When I make a measurement playing Flames of War,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it represents just what distance I choose it to in real life, neither more nor less.'

I knew the Humpty Dumpty analogy was spot on.

I'm glad I took a week of from TMP, as it's the usual suspects saying the usual things.

I'll answer just the one question, before I head back to lurking, as it's impossible to get a balanced opinion in edgeways on FOW here.

Delicious irony. A sweeping generalisation accusing people of making sweeping generalisations. Could you point out some specific examples?

Well, to start with there is your complete ignorance of the current rules system. You have read the forums (3 years and a complete edition ago) and read a playtest version of the V1 rules.
Yet you feel knowledgeable enough to comment on every single FOW thread, as well as start your own anti FOW threads. The game has changed markedly since V2, but you wouldn't know that.

If it's fine for you to make such sweeping generalisations about a system you would know virtually nothing about, then I can see no problem with myself making similar generalisations. Yet you seem to delight in point out my generalisations as somehow a problem, when you have made as many or more of your own.

In addition you chose single sentences out of a post to reply to, and ignore any reasoned arguments in the rest of the post.

WE KNOW YOU DON'T LIKE FLAMES OF WAR, there is really no need to continue telling us all about that dislike. Go play your preferred game(s), and contain your comments to systems you do play and understand.

Well bump it to the top why don't you?

wwiiogre…

only just read your comments re; Metal storm… no problem with them… MS are written more for 'oldie style wargamers' in so much as players have to find out about what troops are actually in a platoon and company in the various armies. They dont have and never will contain voluminous army lists or organisational lists, as that info is easily obtainable in books and even the internet.

So the rules may not attract the players who want everything done for them, all in a box so to speak. However the system and the game it produces is amazingly realistic in its outcomes. As far as sales, they have sold very well in the USA infact well over half go there Modern and WW2. The most astonishing thing is that I havnt had a single moan about the games they produced from any of the buyers.

But they will truck along picking up players and giving excellent games and value… If anything is good the word will slowly spread without the need for flash advertising. You really should try them you may be supprised.

Im having a rest from moderns and WW2 at the moment, painting my 6mm Napoleonics. In fact I will soon be offering a map campaign system for Horse and Musket period, I designed it oooow 20 odd years ago. Ive just re done it all in a nice booklet and drawn a new map and a website will be coming on line. Campaigns beat the hell out of one off battles for enjoyment and getting a feel for the grand strategy. It all adds to the jigsaw of wargaming.

OK, It's V-Day and we need to get this thread up and running again. It can overtake the GW Hatred thread. I'll start in a new direction on this one.

Flames of War, has it been a benefit or a curse to our hobby?

Discuss.

Both

I think this thread is petering out! All the action is on the why I hate Rapid Fire/Battlefront thread! :-)

No, it cannot peter out!

FOW is the greatest thing since sliced bread in miniatures
gaming!

No, it cannot peter out!

FOW is the greatest thing since sliced bread in miniatures
gaming!

It has brought in people who would have probably not played with toy soldiers.

The rules are not that complicated. Of course, I look at Advanced Squad Leader as the rules of complexity.

Discuss.

FOW is the greatest thing since sliced bread in miniatures
gaming

You use scliced bread in miniatures gaming?

The "sliced bread" remark is meant to be a deliberate exaggeration of things.

My remark was meant to be a joke.

Just wondering –

Has a FOW employee run off with Derek H's wife or killed Derek's pet or burned down his house or something?

To spend so much time dedicated to criticising a game of toy soldiers seems a bit strange – there has to be some reason.

I dont think he spends much time critiscising. he (AND OTHERS) just draw attention to the inherent flaws in their recent practices……And the rules. He is actually fairly even handed, just others think he is harsh. I think his fascination is whether a company can do so many retrograde steps in products and then market themselves out of it via the internet enviroment. All their gearing is via internet and local stockist shops

how far can they actually go?

They already market resin models at metal prices, changed the shape of their figures to be incompatable with others, restrict there own releases.

Could they switch to hard plastic figures?
Could they make full resin tanks a la retrograde trucks?

How many books will fans be willing to buy?
and What is the exact saturation level for pretty pictures?

And how far can they bend their game just to make sales?

All truly fascinating stuff.

And even thought i know they are doing some of the above, I'll still buy so much of their stuff because it is so often the best you can get.
It is just so much wargaming cocaine!

Has a FOW employee run off with Derek H's wife or killed Derek's pet or burned down his house or something?

To spend so much time dedicated to criticising a game of toy soldiers seems a bit strange – there has to be some reason.

It doesn't take much time at all.

As to the reasons. I got a shedload of personal abuse from a couple of out of control moderators on their forums in response to some quite reasonable criticisms of the change in style on some of their recent released miniatures. In particular the big heads. That got me a bit riled.

Posts were deleted, including the abusive postings from the so called moderators. Other people on the forums complained about the moderators' behavior and their posts got deleted as well.

I repeated said criticisms here on TMP and on my blog dmchodge.blogspot.com Search on my blog or here on TMP for the history, it's all public at my end.

About three weeks ago I got a "a pre-emptive banning" from the FoW forums because Dion, moderator in chief , didn't "want to waste mine or anybody else's time on our forum by having to inevitably deal with you".

I hadn't broken any of their forum rules – except the general one that allows them to ban anyone they like for anything they want.

In the process of trying to stop me posting there they've banned access to their forums from IP addresses at my work, a university with a wargames club, and also from Pipex UK, a big UK broadband supplier.

Meanwhile I'm still reading ,posting and criticizing on their forums through alternative networks and a new account (had to change my posting style a bit) and in an email exchange with Dion he has declared that "I will eventually find what you are posting under and ban that IP range as well."

The Chinese government can't manage this sort of ban, what hope does Battlefront have?

You've got to laugh really.

As somebody posted on the FoW forums today

I think that the censorship on this site is becoming excessive. Posts where people just express a strongly negative view about some aspect of BF, their products or direction are getting deleted by Mods who think that only the company view should be allowed. People fought and died for freedom of speech.

Meanwhile I'm still reading ,posting and criticizing on their forums through alternative networks and a new account (had to change my posting style a bit) and in an email exchange with Dion he has declared that "I will eventually find what you are posting under and ban that IP range as well."

Lol! I wonder if we could get them to ban the entire range of UK network providers!? :-)

Wading in after reading through the whole thread (whoa!).. Not going to offer opinion, just some fact about where I am (SF Bay Area).

1. Of the two major hobby shop I regular frequent (D&J Hobby & GameKastle), FoW has MAJOR presence. In D&J, FoW is the only historicals carried in large dose. GameKastle happens to be a major FoW hub so it's even more pronounced.

2. D&J folks told me that starting from about last year, FoW have outsold 40k in that store. Only game that gets played more often in there is the Wotc Star Wars collectible miniature game.

3. I just went to one of the local convention last weekend (Shield Conference in Oakland). Of all the WW2 games I surveyed, I'd say about 50% are FoW (which are represented by the FoW tourney), and the other 50% made up of BKC, SL in miniature, and one set written by the convention organizer. (Note this is a "hardcore gamer convention" so the young-uns are probably under-represented.

4. Looking at the shelves of GameKastle (who has the more eclectic collection compare to D&J), there are about 4 shelves of FoW, two shelves of Artizan/other 28mm WW2. Only other historicals stocked at all is cowboys (Gamekastle also has an active contingent of Western Gunfight rules from Warhammer historical).

In these parts FoW is clearly the dominate set of rules. IMO the only thing that COULD give it a run for the $$$ is if the Warhammer Historical's long rumored WW2 skirmish rules ever hit the street (and I suspect that would be a skirmish set and not a direct competitor to FoW).

Exactly how many rule books did you mention?

Lots of people buy their figures, although a significant number of people have recently been bombed out of them since the style change. Dont mistake sales of vehicles with fow…it isnt necessarily what their product is bought for. It isn't LOTR. You can use battlefront products with any rule set. From what i can see, there are stockists in the UK who dont bother with the rule books.

Two things that advertising agencies know about men… firstly they are attracted by glitzy packaging and will buy because of it. Secondly once they have spent they will never admit what they have bought is rubbish. Cars are the front runner in these stakes. Dape a car in blonds put a top notch sterio in it and sales soar but few men will admit their new car is an absolute nail. Its advertising fact.

I've bought loads of things that are rubbish and always tell everyone!

I bought a PDA Phone from T-Mobile which is the single most rubbish purchase I have ever bought.
I bought a Ford Puma once and the build quality and issues I had were so bad I have vowed never to purchase another Ford in my entire life
I have bought loads of Rules that are rubbish. I don't like Rapid Fire, (I prefer FOW in theory though I have never played a game yet). I really hate CHIPCO Fantasy 3.0 rules they are the most badly laid out, rubbish rules on this or several other planets.

There admitted to all those naff purchases I made. Does that mean I am no longer a "real man"?

Just to add slightly to the FOW controvosy. I have bought the rules and they look really good. I am going to try a game real soon. I wanted to rebase my large 20mm armies for FOW and went on the FOW forum for advice. When I explained that I wanted to use 20mm!!!!! and NOT battlefront miniatures the advice given was along the lines of go kill yourself loser and never darken our doors again.

I have asked for one or two pieces of advice since but always pretended I have a 15mm army, when in reality I am building a 20mm Pacific war Japanese army. If anyone else is interested in FOW for the pacific campaigns check out a really friendly yahoo group called FOW Pacific war. Although they are mostly 15mm players they don't mind my 20mm perversion, which I find very refreshing.

Andy