"Paint Police Great Idea!" Topic

This subject was touched on sometime ago. My post back then was tongue in cheek. However I am for a minimum standard of painting at so as to avoid poor looking games that do nothing to enhance the hobby. I am not suggesting that we should all paint in the realms of the Dallymores of this world I just want to set some minimum standards on the undercoating paint lackies out there that should be playing board wargames. What do reckon these standards should be indeed if at should exist at all.
I have taken part in a few posts recently where it would seem there are wargamers out there seem to think its ok to field raw lead or undercoted models. I feel this is wrong.
Be Forthright.

I personally do not like to play using unpainted lead or undercoated figures. I prefer to field figures which I have painted, based and varnish protected, and I have in the past changed an army list to a less effective version because I haven't completed a unit in time for a game.

Having said that, I am perfectly happy to play against any army, whatever the state of completion, and I get just as much enjoyment out of it.

For me, painting is a part (a big part) of the hobby I enjoy; I recognise that it isn't the same for everyone. My (personally held and not ever stated to others when I play them) hope is that if opponents see a completed and decent looking force arrayed against them, they will feel a little bit of guilt at not having worked on their army and will get it coloured in. But if they don't, who am I to complain? I am very poor at producing scenery, always rely on club stuff and use felt shapes at home. We all have our weak points… :-)

Cheers,
Colin

You paint to the best of your abilities, but keep trying. I don't play games much but I am sure that raw metal figures would detract from the games.

They have to be painted to get on my table.

Tony

occultwars.com

What's done by consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes is their own business.

But, at least as far as I'm concerned, miniature wargaming should never be practiced in public using unpainted figures.

This has always been a touchy subject, as you don't want to intrude on anyone's pasttime. Some people paint, some people don't, but everyone has the right to enjoy what they want to.

On the other hand, if you are representing the miniature wargaming community (key word there, community) than it is good to put on your best face, and to have a painted army if that is what is required.

For battles and pick up games at your club or garage, or local gaming store? Well, that is up to you and your opponent.

There was a large miniature games company awhile back that did not allow unpainted models in some of its stores here in the states. That did not fly well with the customers, though the staff were always helpful in giving a painting lesson, some people just don't enjoy it or have enough talent to do it. They lifted that decision soon after, I think it turned alot of people off.

I suppose at the end of the day, it is really up to you you and your opponent, if you don't want to play against someone who does not have painted figures, offer to help your opponent paint. the worst thing you could do is help them out.

Adam
Not Half Bad! Studios

Ok I come from the bottom end of this side of the hobby.
That is the right colours on the right spots with flocked or sandy bases. That's the limit of my skills and with the deterioration of my eyes little chance of improvement.
Its been 29 years since I joined my first Wargames club and have collected played with Ancient, Colonial and Napoleonic armies. In that time I have never once seen anyone try to use unpainted or even partially painted figures.
I'd rather lend them some of my figures or reduce the size of the armies to avoid it. Just wouldn't feel like wargaming to have virgin lead on the table

Yeh, no unpainted figures on the tabletop. At least 3 colours each with highlights.

While we're at it, no bits of felt for terrain and lichen for trees … this is miniatures gaming, not felt gaming.

Another long neglected area are quality standards for rules. I mean we can't have unrealistic, poorly written rules sullying the perfection of our games.

But enough talk. What I want to know is where do I sign up as a Paint Police. And exactly what I will be empowered to do to the no-good scumbags I catch playing with unpainted lead.

Seriously, it is none of my or your business how someone else chooses to play with his miniatures far less "police" them.

Figures should be compared with contemporary photographs taken in identical light conditions and humidity. Any deviation in shade or density of shadow in folds of clothing should be punished by crushing the offending figures, and their owner if local laws permit.

I'd rather not play at all than use unpainted figures.

Nobody deliberately paints badly and some are better than others, so I will happily play with painted figures of any standard and am not a paint snob, although I like to think that I can turn out a nice looking figure.

If you're not going to paint, you might as well use counters.

However I am for a minimum standard of painting at so as to avoid poor looking games that do nothing to enhance the hobby. I . . . just want to set some minimum standards on the undercoating paint lackies out there that should be playing board wargames.

And just who would be the one to set the standards? And who would get to enforce them? And how would you enforce them?

I still have some figures I painted many years ago. They're truly horrible compared to the way I paint now but at the time I was quite proud of them. Should I have NOT played miniature wargames for all these years until I was able to paint to my current standard?

The whole idea is ludicrous. If you don't want to play with someone whose figures are not up to your arbitrary standards, that is certainly your choice. But don't assume that everyone, or even a majority, agrees. It is an individual decision.

personally painting is not one of my strong points and although it is not something i love/hate, it is more about the game for me. however, i would never consider playing with half or even unpainted figures mainly because of the stick i would get from those i play with!!) on the other hand there is nthing more relaxing than to sit down and paint of an evening. just my opinion…

I break this into two areas tournaments and general gaming. For tournaments all figures painted to this best standard of the players ability. For any other gaming as long as you have the proper figure use it. These people that say it has to be painted are just being uppity. It is a game it is meant to be played. Some where it all got lumped together and it became a hobby. It is wargaming not propainting. The gaming is what started this industry and some people forget that. Painters should just build and paint models and put them on display. My rant for the day. I have had several very good gamers quit gaming because of snobs like this and it does the industry no good when you stick your nose that high in the air.

We're currently playing a Warhammer Quest campaign where some of the figures aren't painted. We don't care. They will eventually get painted, but if you aren't playing because you don't have a lot of time to paint and can't field unpainted figures, why would you bother persevering? It can take a long time to paint an army and playing is often an important element to keeping the enthusiasm up.

I agree with rhacelt, tournaments fine, set some standards, but for general play, as long as painting progress is seen, then why should it matter.

I don't think Brushbeast is saying they have to be painted to a certain standard, but that maybe their should be a standard regarding a minimum number of colors or the completeness of the fig. When I was a kid and playing large fantsay battles back in the late 70's/early 80's the man running the games would not let anyone use unpainted lead. For most of the kids the paint jobs weren't that great, but they were painted (and the more you paint, the better you tend to get at it). I have a strong dislike for unpainted figs on the table, but I see it quite frequently with the 40K and FOW crowd (actually, I don't think I've seen anyone other than sci-fi, fantasy and FOW people play with unpainted or primed figs). I have recently witnesses FOW games in which the entire army was primed black and another player's entire army wasn't even primed at all. Just bare lead mounted on stands! To each his own, but when you are putting on games in public, I think it really detracts from the visual appeal of the game/hobby. Anyway, back to the question. I think one or two primary uniform colors (shirts and pants?) plus the flesh would just pass muster. And, for the record, as I have stated many times in the past, I really dislike painting and find it to be the least enjoyable part of the hobby.

spray paint is your friend!

Having said the above, let me contradict my own statement a little bit. I started "real wargaming" when I was 11 or 12 after my dad gave my older brother a set of Charles Grant's rules. My brother dutifully made an artillery bounce stick and a canister cone, we purchased multiple boxes of Airfix Naps and used them straight out of the box (as SYW troops). We played on a small dining room table. I started trying to paint them when I was 13 or so (and by the time I was 15 or 16 I wouldn't even consider taking my unpainted lead to the local store and try to play with it). Those formative gaming days with the Airfix figures have truely given me some of my finest wargaming memories. So, I guess standards depend as to age, time and place.

I totally disagree with Eccles. Sadly, far too many people do just as he suggests, and the hobby here has changed from miniatures to mainly boardgames because of the painting effort required and the poorer representation of scale. Additionally, IMHO, counters are better for anything operational level or higher. Unpainted lead is nowhere near as distracting..even humourous..as 4 28mm figs on a stand pretending to be a Regiment! Painting is one hobby, wargaming another. Some do both, some only one. I find poor rules or poor figs to men ratio far worse than unpainted lead. Who sets the standard, gamers or modellers? Why not let people just enjoy the hobby rather than get into a snit because your opponents 6mm troops don't have proper cuff detail and eye shading.

I generally agree with Calico Bill, especially the idea that painting and wargaming are different hobbies. As a wargamer, I don't buy into the idea that the pieces need to be painted. That is a painter's standard.

I tried for a while to paint minis for wargames but I cannot stick to a single period. So I ended up with lots of unpainted lead and no complete armies. I decided that it was a big waste of time because I don't like painting. Instead, I shifted my focus to playing. This included things like using 2mm and playing more boardgames.

I do like minis, though, as part of boardgames. Even unpainted, the 3D nature is more visually pleasing than counters. Think Risk, Memoir 44, Axis and Allies, etc.

You'll never find a shortage of volunteers to boss other people around.

What business is it of anyone else what MY figures look like?

I think unpainted or poorly painted figures on the war game table should be confiscated & given good homes.Let's do every thing we can to stamp out figure neglect & abuse.

I think Cheap Trick's Dream Police should be suitably modified and used as an anthem for this proposed organization.

It depends on what you value more – wargaming and playing games, or painting. I have very very limited time, and am not a fast(or particularly good) painter anyway – if I could find someone to game against, and the only figures I had were unpainted, I'd hope they wouldn't mind so long as we had a good game and fun. Like most people I do like to see a lovely table display with great scenery and painted minis. Sometimes the quality of the scenery is not very good – which distracts the eye more often IMHO more than a part painted/unpainted/badly painted set of figures. Both combined can look bad – but unless you are putting on a demonstration game – does it matter?

I never play with unpainted/poorly painted figs. Then again i wouldn't presume to tell anyone that his painting is not up to my standards, or that he cannot play until he has painted everything. That seems like a sure way to discorage a new player, and/or never get him to play a game again. Ultimately, that should be up to you.

Well I run an after school 'Warhammer' club for my 10 & 11 year old students – little do they know it is a thinly veiled plot to get them hooked on playing with armies of goblins and the like, only to slowly wean them off horrible fantasy tat and onto 'proper' wargames… HAHAHAHAHA…
My point is however – they are so eager to get their new shiny figures on the board that I really have to allow them to play with unpainted lead – I do however run an undercoating and base paint layer application session once a month in the hope that they will continue the good work at home and forward into their glorious and wonderful historical wargaming futures… Hussar…
Cheers,

Steve P

Im starting to think that the "Gaming with Unpainted Figures" topic might need its own board ;-)

"Knock Knock"

"Who's there?"

"Paint police.."

"Paint police wh.."

"SILENCE! VE WILL BE ASKING ZE QUESTIONS!"

Sorry, had too. too much sugar this morning. Back to my brushes.

I consider myself a good to very good painter but have no problems at all putting my figures on the table with what can only charitably be described as the not so well painted figures of a few of the regulars in our group. Same thing with terrain. We vary between exquisite sculpted terrain with quality buildings to felt almost everything. It just doesn't matter.

As long as the folks I'm with have done what works for them as a function of their skill, time and sometimes money, I'm fine.

Unpainted figures are a different matter. I won't have them in a game I'm running and don't really care to play games with large numbers of unpainted figures although the odd unpainted 'one of' can be tolerated in anything but naval. There is no excuse for unpainted figures in any post-1890 naval game.

"And just who would be the one to set the standards? And who would get to enforce them? And how would you enforce them?"

Well if the hobby attains an attitude through open minded discussion then pier group pressure should do the rest.

I suppose this will fail if at your group all you do is play with paint lackies, however I am in the earnest hope this is not the case and therefore these people can be persuaded to purchace painted stuff or knuckle under with a brush. Like I said I am not insisting on anything other than a basic paint and base job, whats so hard in that?

There's a simple solution to the whole thing: Alternate game nights. One night is for the unpainted group, the next for the painted group, and so on, with the odd night for mixing of the two. I wonder which group would be having the more fun…?

There is another thing that could be thrown into this discussion, that some companies are moving towards pre painted minis for some of their games, Mongoose and Rackham for two examples.

It will be a new ingredient in our collective stew, because there will be a third type of miniature now, the pre painted.

Wouldnt this solve the problem?

Just something to ponder.

It will be a new ingredient in our collective stew, because there will be a third type of miniature now, the pre painted.

Wouldnt this solve the problem?

I think it will for the most part…there will still be guys who will reflexivley shout But!!! YOU didn't paint them!!!

I enjoy painting so I do. For those who dont (or who dont have the time) I fail to see the problem with them using pre-paints.

Even if I would rather they hire me to paint their stuff ;-)

If you don't want to play with unfinished figures, fine. Play that way in your own sandbox. If someone else doesn't care, good. He can play with nekkid figures in his game.

What does it matter if you're getting in a good game? And whose damned business is it whether my figures are unpainted, half-painted, or museum quality?

I'll agree at conventions or demonstration games, for heaven's sake make 'em look good, since that'll lure in other gamers. But don't go spoiling someone else's fun if they don't want to (or can't afford to) take the time & effort to get their figures painted before using them for friendly games.

Anyone who would field unpainted armies is a cad and a bounder! They should be shunned by polite society.

I don't play with unpainted figures in the games I run. Neither does anyone else in the group I belong to.

If you wish to, be my guest.

As I said in previous like threads, unpainted figures on a gaming table are the devil's work…

Live and let live I say. I usually play with figures that are painted, but our club's figs are pretty basic. Still, when you field a couple thousand for a battle with geo-hex and decent trees, the end result looks pretty nice.

I'd never play with unpainted lead. 3 colors would be enough but it's all about the illusion for me.

Strive for perfection in your will, desire and application of your painting, if you fall short at least you tried.

Regards
Shane

I can't understand why someone would want to play with unpainted miniatures, however I'd respect their decision nonetheless. Heck, so long as we don't have to do the same…

… I think that maybe on of the tortures in hell, on your 30 minute break from floating down a river of molten lava, you are forced to play wargames with unpainted figures using crappy rules, and you always loose!!! >=)

Cheers
Patric

Nobody expects the paint police…suprise is our weapon, suprise and fear……and a huge collection of Ospreys as reference material….and the latest Vallejo catalogue….and…I'll come in again….

As a shiny-eyed youth playing Warhammer V2.0 in my bedromm (honestly, that's what I was doing..) bare metal was the order of the day with no problems. Now i feel that a quick paint-by-numbers just to hide all that silver makes for a nicer experience (although I bloody hate painting).
It's all Poly's fault…the reason he doesn't care what anyone thinks of his painting is because he enjoys it so much and because he's so damn good at it….
PS Kong rocked last night, roll-on episode 2….

I cant paint for toffee. E-Baying troops from accomplished painters is For The Win.

I do love the effect that nice scenery and well painted troops give, and I'm not averse to getting down to eye level whilst making dummdummderdum noises of drums.

I rarely roll to fire without a shout of "Front rank! Present!" and a suitable "Boom" as the D6 skitters accross the field. It all adds to the effect. (Slightly annoys people on the receiving end of a Stuka attack though)

Personally however the hobby is the tactics and the battle itself, and if I have to use squares of cornflake box card to represent my forces then i will.

One of my opponents feilded a regiment of Goblin Wolf Riders, but since they were raw metal, he just plonked the Slottabase's* on the table. No problems, It gave me a chance to fight a different type of enemy and IMO improved the game.

(TM..Copyright GW 1992 All Rights reserved, the use of the term slottabase here does not infringe any claims to ownership of any product name belonging to the company, yadda yadda)

What you do in the privacy of your own basement is your own affair. But what you do at a hobby shop or convention does reflect on the hobby as a whole, for good or ill.

I'd be too embarrassed to put spraypainted or unpainted figures on the table in public. I'm not advocating paint police, just the exercise of personal choice. I wouldn't choose to play a miniatures game with someone who thought a lump of bare metal or an empty base was an actual "miniature". I'd suggest we play chess or a board game instead. Those games can be challenging, enjoyable, and don't require painting. But they are a different hobby.

I am shocked that more people do not understand that unpainted miniatures in a public venue hurt the hobby. This is a hobby that encompasses collecting, painting and gaming. It is all part of miniature wargaming.

If you do not want to paint or pay for painted miniatures there are some wonderful boardgames that require none.

EE