"Duke Sauron stole my convention!!!" Topic

Duke Sauron stole my convention.

Well maybe not really, however, I thought I would draw peoples attention the fact that the “DUKE” is running a huge spectacle of a game in the lobby of the Lancaster Host hotel at Historicon. The problem for me is that it is a fantasy game, Lord of the Rings. For the largest Historical Miniature Gaming Society to feature a fantasy event to such an extent is very troubling to me. The stated goal of HMGS is to promote the historical aspect of our hobby, this event does not seem to fit into those guide lines. Now I know there has always been non-historical gaming at the conventions, infact I think that there is unofficial 10% quota on them, which I personally am against but that is neither here nor there. The real issue is a showcase game for the convention being a fantasy game. Now to compound that it smacks of the Old boy network. If the boys at Games Workshop had asked to run a huge fantasy game in the lobby of the hotel do we think the Board of Directors of HMGS east would have said, be our guest oh and make sure we can play too, I don’t see that happening, however, since it is the “DUKE” then it is somehow ok. I have seen many of the “DUKE’s” spectacles in the past, they are true events and really helps to promote the hobby but they have used historical figures and backgrounds.

So I would just like those of you who have a strong opinion one way or the other to contact the board and tell them how you feel.

William Keyser

Primus. The first fantasy games ever were published in the "Old Courier". I think there was a write-up of the Battle of the 5 Armies, or maybe Helm's Deep.

Secundus. Uncle Duke is unlikely to use GW's rules. More likely he will be using his own home rules.

Tertius. GW has alrady run games at Historicon. I have seen their terrain boards and games set up for Moria, weathertop, the Death of Boromir, etc. Oh, you mentioned that already. They are darn impressive looking games, and a credit to the hobby.

Finally, why are you upset about it? As a historical gamer, I am secure in the knowledge that elves and hobbits are not going to take over the convention. We won't get cooties from them.

This is why I left HMGS...POLITICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is a freaking hobby!!!

As a member of HMGS-East, I'm all for it! I understand that the organization (certain members?) wants to promote the hobby and make it grow, but this whole thing about "historicals only", and an "us against them" mentality really turns me off to HMGS and the whole hobby . My God, we're all grown men painting and playing with toy soldiers. When did the seriousness behind it all come into being? Is it due to a necessity for some grown men to rationalize to their families and themselves why they still play with toys? I'm bewildered. Why can't you just go to Historicon, find your happy place, and not worry about everyone else?

John one of the primary reasons that HMGS was begun is because they felt that they where getting the high hard one from the fantasy cons, Gen Con and origins. The beginnings of HMGS was due to the fact that the elves and hobbits where over running them. I am thoroughly inoculated from the cooties so that is not the issue, nor is the issue of the game itself as I stated in my message, it is that the premier historical convention will have as its most visible event a fantasy game. Now I play historical and fantasy and even some sci fi so the issue is not the game itself rather the fact that one of the good old boys can push this event through the board of directors of the largest historical gaming society on earth (of course I am just guessing about it being the largest) and even get a number of them to commit to gaming.

William

I'd be aghast if it were anything but LOTR. Tolkien's world is deeply meshed with the historical world of the Dark Ages, so superbly developed and internally consistent that it truly has a reality that extends beyond mere fantasy. And surely, Duke has done so many superb historical flagship games over the years that I believe he has earned the right to put on a LOTR game

Are not "historical" miniatures rules fantasy anyway? Substitute Longbowmen with Elves and Vikings with Dwarves and presto....a fantasy wargame from a historical rules set. What's the beef?

I made my first trip to HCon several years ago. I had heard so much about how great Duke's games were, and could not wait for the event.

It was the worst experience of my wargaming life - I was treated as nothing more than a large mute automaton. If troops were moved in such a way that was not scripted by Duke, they were obliterated. If troops took an action that was not scripted by Duke, they were obliterated. I left couple of guys in reserve, who I wanted ordered to look behind the advancing column for enemy troops. Evidently, Duke had planned a suprise ambush from behind, and my lookouts irritated him. He capriciously killed them off. And then launched the suprise attack from the rear a few turns later, so it would be a "true" suprise. My column was then massacred, as he had evidently intended all along.

So if Duke is running a LOTR game at HCon, it will do more to kill fantasy gaming than it will to promote it. Don't worry about it.

WKeyser, I was there from the beginning, so I know all the arguments. To me it is like arguing about Unions. They were necessary in the 1920's but now... Just because something had to be done in 1982 doesn't mean we have to continue in our own separate ghettos.

I don't play in Duke's games because you have to commit 6 or 8 hours, and he's a bossy SOB. They are beautiful, though.

Bottom line is that I have no problem with a fantasy presence at HMGS events, even in the big hall. I would even argue that any wargame is a fantasy event. Changing history? French winning at Waterloo or Trafalgar? Late Romans versus Burgundians? GASLIGHT? VSF? Flintloque?

Oh Yeah... I forgot about GASLIGHT, Flintloque, VSF, not to mention a-historical matchups in DBx games.......the list could go on. I do not see anything wrong with allowing LOTR games, etc......

William Keyser does have a point - I can go to cons much closer to my house that are of the mixed variety - I go to Historicon to see the new toys and meet with the guys who wrote the rules I want to play (William wrote From Valmy to Waterloo by the way).

I have never gone to Gencon or Origins because they do not offer enough of what I will travel for. If Historicon stops being worth the trip it is really going to hurt historicals in general.

Is it worth it for Christopher Duffy to come if it turns into a fantasy con? Or guys with a day job taking vacation to run thier rule set there to promote it? Or would they be better off doing it closer to home? My favourite Napoleonic rule set was written in New Jersey and I live in Ontario, Canada - would I have ever met the author without a venue like this?

This is likely a tempest in a teacup and frankly Duke can have the stinky lobby (it reeks of the burgers in the concessions so I would never want to run anything there) but I don't this is a good start...

Hell let me show up so I can run games of Fairy Meat, Warmachine, Heavy Gear, and CAV! I remember when conventions were a great place to meet new people and enjoy gaming. The fact that it's a convention with a more historical slant is awesome, but I don't think they should limit themselves. If the LOTR game attracts new players to the "genre" of historical gaming - then more power to it - even if Duke uses GWs rules.

The gaming hobby is already fragile enough, why make it even weaker...

For starters let me say that my interests, in priority order, are historical (WWII and Ancients), science-fiction (GZG all the way), and fantasy (Wargods). My combined interest in SF and fantasy does not even come close to my historical interest. I only started playing SF and fantasy because the historical gamers were such purists -- wrong facing colors meant the regiment could be played in a particular battle.

Then, after my experience with GW -- must use their figures, cannot use any substitutes, must use their paints, must use their dice (just kidding about the latter two), I went back to historicals because I found historical gamers to be more experimental and open-minded than GW players.

IMO, therefore, this whole issue is just the flip side of the GW purist issue. I can support neither one. I do think that a convention sponsored by a historical group should allot most of its space, or give priority to, historical games. But I don't see any problem with including other genres (except maybe LARP -- no, definitely excluding LARP).

Would those that are opposed to fantasy games at Historicon also support a move to rid the convention of VSF, GASLIGHT, and other such games? Are we seeing a "fantasy" creep into historical games? What is, afterall, a game that pits British adventurers in the 1880's against dinosaurs in the Lost World? FANTASY. To carve out an exception for those games, to the exclusion of a particular rules set (i.e., Warhammer Fantasy Battle) or game type, seems rather ridiculous if not arbitrary.

I say it has to be either one way or the other. There can be no middle ground on this issue. Mr. Keyser has some very sound points. But to adopt his position means that all games at Historicon must be of historical value and content. This would definitely mean no GASLIGHT or LEONARDO PLUS (run by a friend).

Either Historicon must accept the inclusion of fantasy or science fiction games, or it must totally ban them altogether. It is not a matter of the Grand Duke Seigfried running a game based on fantasy. It is more a question of where we draw the dividing line.

Your Humble Servant,

John

LOTR is history. Written over 60 years ago it is the grand daddy of all elf,dwarf,ork based games, books and RPG's. It has been around longer than most of us. It was the first fantasy (non science fiction) literature I ever read over 30 years ago and it has spawned generations of imitations. The Duke's spectaculars always have an element of whimsy to them and if any non-historical theme could be pulled off by him at Historicon this would be it.

I do not believe this signals a trend because he gives a tip o' the hat to old JRR T. I am looking forward to seeing it up close for myself this July.

I only game historicals myself but I would enjoy this as I consider LOTR to have entered the realm of gaming history if not world history.

Let's all try and get along.

Carl V.

I am basically an historical gamer that has dabbled in science fiction and fantasy. I think the problem is not the LOTR game so much as the fact that a pompus ass such as Duke is representing the hobby. I met him a long time ago and that was enough for me to decide to ignore him for the rest of my life. Fantasy is part of the hobby, at one time it kept some manufatorers heads above water. If it does bring some new blood into the historical side thats good. If you don't like the game don't play it.

Tom

Live and let live. How can you begrudge a game to a man that has single-handedly invented both, Armory Paints and the d6 (truth...I heard him say it).

I'm sure the game will look wonderful, may even cause some that attend just to see it, to wander off and discover they like historical gaming as well!

The more the better....now where is Princess Ryan and her Space Marines....(big grin)....?

Oggie

I can see where it rubs folks wrong. On the other hand, I like historical fiction games. I rarely like to replay battles that have been fought - I like to write my own "history".

Having read a description of the Duke Extravaganza, I'd say the biggest problem is not that it's a fantasy game, but rather that it is primarily an invitation only event. He plans to use up essentially all of the prime real estate in the lobby to run a game that only the invited can get into. I don't want to go to Historicon to watch OTHER people play! Nor is the sheer majesty of layout any draw to me. If I want to just see really pretty tables, I'll buy a copy of Wargames Illustrated. Now if I had a chance to PLAY in a really pretty game or a grandiose spectacle, that'd be something different. If Duke wants to show off his terrain building skills and play a game with his old buddies, let him organize that some other place and give that space to games for gamers. I probably will not even be able to make it this year, and this event will certainly not encourage me to go out of my way to get there. I'll use my time to help local cons.

Brian

This really should have stayed on the relevant HMGS/GMSN Yahoo Group lists.

That being said, I'm a HMGS East member and have no problem with any miniatures game at a HMGS convention. The only gripe I've seen that I partially agree with is the invitational closed aspect of the game which flies in the face of previously encouraged policies.

Previous event hosting policy (page 8 of Historicon 2001 program as an example I have laying next to my computer) discourages forbiding players entrance to games and disallowing minors without prior approval of the convention commitee. Granted such approval is assumed in the LotR game but it smacks of elitism.

But complaining that someone is running a fantasy game at a convention that routinely has fantasy games, most played with historical miniatures, does look elitist. The people organizing this or any game put a lot of time, effort, and/or money into running a game. Why rain on their effort?

I don't see a problem with Duke's traveling carnival. The challenge to historical gamers is to do better. Our convention was last weekend, and, in my opinion, the best game aethetically was Steve Ward's gorgeous Helm's Deep. It won best of show for one our game periods, despite the fact that we are NHMGS.

This isn't the first time that non-historicals were featured at Enilade or Historicon. The conventions should promote historical miniatures, but should also challenge historical game hosts to their best efforts. While non-historicals shouldn't dominate conventions, it is way past time for we historical miniaturists to get over ourselves and bury the hatchet with the non-historical crowd. As convention director, we keep non-historicals to about 15% of our game totals, but we don't treat them like poor-relations, we don't stick them in a back corner, we don't shoehorn them into Sunday afternoon sessions when nobody can see or play the games. My job is to use our convention to promote and grow the hobby, and that game was swarmed with mostly adolescent game fanatics, including my son, who later went on to try some historical miniatures.

Just my opinion.

Kevin

Well, at least you guys get the option to have non-historical games. Our local HMGS chapter is the only one in the US (IIRC) that prohibits ANY fantasy OR sci-fi gaming (and is the worse for it). I know too many folks who have stopped going (and being members)due to that attitude.

Is there a description of this game online somewhere? I didn't see it in the Historicon page.

andy

Every game I have ever played at Historicon (or Cold Wars fo that matter) was fantasy.

- Panzers invading New Jersey in 1946.
- Germans assaulting and winning the Battle of the Red October tank factory in Stalingrad.
- English Civil War battle where the Lord High Protector of England himself, Sir Oliver Cromwell gets his head taken off by a cannon. Long Live King Charles!
- The Duke of Burgundy actually beating the Swiss!
- Those pesky Chinese sinking the San Pueblo on the Yellow River (poor missionaries).
- Operation Market Garden successful and Monty a hero! Wow that really IS fantasy.

So anyway, what was the question?

Every game I have ever played at Historicon (or Cold Wars fo that matter) was fantasy.

- Panzers invading New Jersey in 1946.

- Germans assaulting and winning the Battle of the Red October tank factory in Stalingrad.

- English Civil War battle where the Lord High Protector of England himself, Sir Oliver Cromwell gets his head taken off by a cannon. Long Live King Charles!

- The Duke of Burgundy actually beating the Swiss!

- Those pesky Chinese sinking the San Pueblo on the Yellow River (poor missionaries).

- Operation Market Garden successful and Monty a hero! Wow that really IS fantasy.

So anyway, what was the question?

mea culpa - double post.
sry

1. The Duke is just another GM. His one game takes up one slot in the 10% category of allowed fantasy games. He certainly hasn't broken any rules.

2. He puts on great games. Some find them lots of fun and visually stunning. They are also large and end up being put in areas where they fit. These tend to be up front - so be it.

3. If you are really concerned I suggest you put on a better game. Good luck. I doubt you have the money, time inclination and skill to out "Duke" the master himself.

I for one have no problem with the Duke running a fantasy game. I think your rant is out of place and uncalled for. Your speculation on what the HMGS convention director (I am sure the BOARD doesn't get involved in the minutia of running the convention) would say about Games Workshop asking to set up a similar game is also out of place. Let them speak for themselves. If I were to speculate I would think they would be happy if Games Workshop put on a large spectacular game. They do publish some very popular historical rules, in case you haven't noticed yet.

You state: "I am thoroughly inoculated from the cooties so that is not the issue..." Are you mentally deficient? I question your rationality at its most fundamental level.

Of all the things to complain about at HMGS conventions, this is your big issue? This is the one you want to raise your flag against? I definitely don't agree with your priorities.

CorpCommander, uhhh, he was answering MY facetious cootie statement, so he is not mentally deficient. You should get a grip too. Your crack is uncalled for, and I don't even agree with him. I think his argument is nonsense too, but name-calling is gauche.

John the OFM

Egads!!! You mean 'Lord of the Rings' isn't true...say it ain't so!

Anyway, who really cares. I like SYW and Renaissance, if I went, I'm sure I could find plenty of great SYW and renaissance games that would not have been cancelled because of the 'Potty Time' games in front of the convention center [British 70's TV show - nothing to do with toileting].

And if you hadn't noticed probably the largest growing area in HISTORICAL gaming seems to be 1880's-1930's Pulp and Great Game stuff. Excitement, a dash of role playing, great miniatures and locales and most importantly the chance to have Sidney Greenstreet and Peter Lore in a game!

I used to race. What I noticed about all great racers was a desire to race ANYTHING wheeled or otherwise. We should be so lucky in our hobby. Good luck and success to all gamers, judges, and manufacturers that put a lot of effort into providing gamers with a great experience.

I luv it. Bring me another beer...

I'm with you Pigface! Pop me another cold one.

Here's a thought from someone who's never been to Historicon, but is it possible that the reason for having a big fantasy game in the lobby is because no one offered to run a non-fantasy game there? If they had a choice of having something or nothing, then of course they'd allow it! Rather than complain, how about offering to run something more historical next year? If the historical people don't like the fantasy games and stop going, and the fantasy players are there willing to run events, what do you think is going to happen in the future???

Duke has run some really nice historical extravaganzas in the past---wish he'd stick to them. I'm not totally opposed to fantasy or sci-fi games at HMGS events, but I'm not really comfortable with Duke's format or location or it being a featured event at a historical convention.

All has to do with history as someone said. HMGS was formed cause way back in the dark ages (early '80s) the fantasy & sci-fi wing pretty much pushed hisoricals out of conventions (I can remember being relegated to dark corners at Origins and Pacificon---it was not fun). You can still see some of that at Origins, despite Pete Panzeri's heroic efforts.

Nothing wrong with some fantasy or sci-fi---I recognize their ability to draw the younger crowd and perhaps move them over from the dark side :). Now that I think of it, that's probably a good idea. Just wish they would take Duke's microphone away and make him shout like the rest of us.

Duke Suron, sounds like an 80's glam singer. The idea of a wargaming celebrety is faintly disturbing. Do geekazoids hit their knees and holler "we are not worthy" when he passes?

Seriously now boys does it matter what type of toy soldiers are being used?

Duke Suron too funny
what would u call the band?
Duke Suron and the Nerd Herd would be my say

I don't like it at all. What will HMGS do next? Move a con to Timonium???

I don't have any problem with fantasy/sci-fi games at a historical convention. I think it's pretty stupid for the organizers to run a fantasy game as the biggest, most obvious game in their con, though.

I agree to the game under two conditions: the players get funny hats and I can watch them from the bar.

sscott, that reminds me of one convention where they tried to combine game, miniatures and sci-fi into one. We watched the various particpants (ok fuzzy headed mutants) in a sci-fi costume contest from the bar after a hard day of gaming. We couldn't stop laughing for hours.

I have to admit I'm torn about this... On one hand I feel kind of snobby and think: "I really don't want Historicon to be swarming with screaming 12-year-olds and turned into yet another Fantasy Con... I like it just as it is, with fat, stinky old guys..."

On the other hand, I can't imagine how you'd regulate and thus prohibit any GM from running a fantasy game. If Pete Frechtling wanted to run his always-popular "Leonardo" games with the flying machines and exploding motorcycles in 15th-century Italy... Would he be cast off to Fantasy Land?

sam

And people wonder why we have problems with our publc image.

To thse that oppose the idea, consider the following:

1. Being an invitational, you don't have to play

2. Be careful, if you do walk by you might pick up a terrain idea or two.

3. Both Duke and Frank have been around to hear all of these arguements before. Did it stop them?

4. ITS ONE game at ONE CON.

5. There is no 5

Let 'em in! Let's play...it's a game afterall. It's all a bit of fantasy no matter how one looks at it.

Geez, another tempest in a p-pot.

Frankly, I don't see that gaming the battles of Middle-Earth is any weirder that Hittites vs.Conquistadors or
Woodland Indians vs.Muscovites.

And it's Duke, he was wargaming when most of us were in diapers at best. He runs spectacular games that he has been hauling out east for God knows how many Historicons let alone all the other conventions he has run games at.

The game will look fantastic, people will have fun playing it and passers-by will be impressed and maybe, just maybe, like to get involved in the hobby that inspired such an event.

I'd also like to ask this question; Do you folks think we can afford all these different schisms in our little hobby?

Historicals vs.fantasy, board gamers vs.miniatures gamers,
GW vs.everyone else etc.etc.etc. You'd think we were a religion or sumtin'.

I just hope someone takes a lot of pictures.

Have a good one folks,

Pat

I think it is up to the convention director/event coordinators to decide if an event should be allowed at a convention. They can ask the members for their opinions, but the final decision rest with the director/coordinator.

As Kevin Smyth mentioned, for our Enfilade! convention we often have fantasy and sci-fi games, but they never dominate the convention.

I do think that having a few non-historical events can bring in new gamers and having historical events around the non-historicals may get them interested in historical games.

I don't understand how people can get their undies in a bunch over a LOTR wargame at Historicon. It wouldn't be the first LOTR game played there, it wouldn't be the first fantasy game played there either. If we as gamers and HMGS members want to play strictly "historical" games then lets do away with the DBx tournaments pitting Romans against Crusaders, get rid of any hypothetical scenarios, and we can all sit around refighting Gettysburg and Kursk over and over 'till we're blue in the face.

I've played board wargames, RPG's, and miniature games from almost every time period and genre during my "career" as a gamer I know that a broad variety of topics is the best way to get a large turn-out. Something for everyone so to speak. If one is concerned about being "taken over" by fantasy gamers, then perhaps HMGS East can limit the number of time slots (a percentage perhaps?) allotted to those games. I don't think we're at that point yet, and any such action would require VERY clear definitions of what constitutes "fantasy games". A solution most of us would not want, I think.

Having been involved in gaming and re-enactment for more years than I care to count, I find the thing that sours people most with a club, convention, or group is politics. When we spend more time discussing who should and shouldn't be allowed to play with us than we do playing, we as a hobby have lost our way.

So don't sweat the LOTR game! Maybe someone who would not otherwise attend will show up to see it and stay to shop and look at what else goes on. Maybe, upon seeing the close packed ranks of Wellington's army or Tigers on the Russian steppe they will want to join in. Whether or not they do join in at that point depends entirely on whether they are made to feel welcome or turned away for not being the "right sort" to enter the ranks of grown men who play with toy soldiers.

Food for thought, I hope

When I saw the poll about this, I thought it was interesting, but this post kind of frosted me.

Duke decided that he wanted to do a Lord of the Rings Extravaganza. He offered to put it on as a large display game. If HMGS East had told him that they didn't want to have a fantasy game he would have taken it to GENCON. So HMGS East made the final decision about that!

No good ol boy decision there.

Frankly, Lord of the Rings is considered a "classic" both as a novel and in gaming terms. Most of the figures that Duke will be using were sculpted by him 20-30 years ago, from illustrations of the races that were made in consultation with Tolkien.

Maybe you don't agree that a fantasy game should be at Historicon, but I can't think of anyone else in the country that will be putting on a game with 4-5000 figures and the sheer amount of terrain he will be using.

By the way the rules are being written by Duke & Frank Chadwick. This project has been something that Duke has wanted to do for 20-30 years and I defy anyone here to put in the amount of work that he has to get this game together!

Most of Duke's games are extravaganzas with scripted results. No surprise there. In the past he has indeed micromanaged players, but if you have played in any of his games recently, you would know that he has become much more player friendly.

I am not an HMGS member. I play sci fi, victorian sci fi, and historical games. Elves and orcs and dragons are not my gaming thing although I do read fantasy. I have read these arguements for years and see no purpose in beating the dead horse. I have one question though which I would like answered.

I thought the idea of a historic based convention was in part to attract more gamers to historical wargames thus increasing the historical player base and the demand for historical miniatures. Was/Is this the premise for Historicon?

Actually this issue has made me soooo angry. If some one could pay my way so I could goto Historicon so I could give everyone a piece of my mind on this fantasy-invite only game. lol

So he has a big game, so what. It really comes down to is this? Is he following the hmgs rules? If so then he can play LOTR. If not just goto officers and make sure the rules are followed. Your lucky, down where I live all the cons folded, fantasy and gaming. we have just one minor game con left. Most of the cons did not go away, because of lack of interest; but because someone did not care to put up with the hassles of running a con. remember that when you attack the officers running hmgs.

For Tod Creasey...

You may want to start checking out Origins again - they offer a really good variety of historicals now. I'm running a 15mm Civil War South Mountain game this year. While still heavily focused on fantasy, Pete Panzeri and the good folks at HMGS-Great Lakes have done a very nice job in rebuilding the historicals section of this convention.

Scott

I don't care to play in Duke's games but they are beautiful & he uses an area that normally isn't used for games. The figures are part of gaming history. I have some that I painted for my wife years ago using Duke's "stain-painting" technique. I have never cared for any fantasy except LOTR. All other attempts pale beside it.As long as historical games aren't being pushed out then more power to Duke & his LOTR game. I do like the funny hats & drinking beer in the bar suggestion.

I don't know... I suspect that this Duke chappy isn't even a real nobleman.