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"Battlefront Panther and Tiger" Topic

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2,349 hits since 18 May 2003
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quirkworthy19 May 2003 12:47 a.m. PST

Been looking at doing some WWII gaming again and had started collecting some 20s when I saw the 15s from Peter Pig and Battlefront. Bah! More temptation. Now I havenít invested that much in 20mm that I couldnít change tack, so I decided to do some research.

Basically, having surfed all over the net looking for pictures and review it seems like the consensus is that Battlefront vehicles are the best range in 15mil. However, looking at the photos on their site, it seems to me that their Tiger Is and Panthers just donít look right. Itís a real shame cos the bulk of their vehicles look pretty close.

Can anyone who actually has these models tell me how they compare with photos of the real thing? The main bits that look wrong to my eye are (on the Panther) the height of the upper chassis side Ė not the bit behind the running gear, and the height of the turret as a whole. Unfortunately, these bits being out of proportion make the whole thing look ďwrongĒ. Iím hoping that itís just the angle that the photos are taken from or other technical problem. However, itís hard to warrant changing to a scale where one of the most common MBTs donít look right.

wannabegeneral19 May 2003 1:44 a.m. PST

I've painted heaps of BF stuff (400+ vehicles) and none of it has appeared "wrong". And I do know that any models that are wrongly proportioned get remodelled pronto.

I have never painted either vehicle you mention but have seen them. They look ok to me.

Hope this helps.

Wargamer Blue19 May 2003 3:02 a.m. PST

I have a few Battlefront panthers. I love them but a few people I have gamed against believe they are slightly larger than they should be. I purchaed the panthers about four years ago so I don't know if they have been redone, but I still think they look great.

Matt Stevens19 May 2003 3:30 a.m. PST

I just spent 10 minutes trying to find an old thread about a year ago comparing the Battlefront Panther to another competitors. I can't find it, but I confess I enjoyed it at the time!

The query was from a similar question (not based on a Peter Pig comparison tho'), the conclusion was the BF Panther was right (give or take a mil or so) & the comparision model was squashed in size, probably from the metal casting process over time. (Its a technique used in spin casting to increase the 'life span' of molds. If you ever get a squashed looking part, thats the reason. Chalk up a benefit of resin over metal for hulls & turrets...) The competitors Panther did look a lot racier than ours, but ours was right. (Per Concord's book on the Panther). I must repeat that the original Panther query was not based on Peter Pig's. I haven't seen one of thier models myself.

Panthers are deceptively tall in reality.

Does any of the old lurkers on this board know if the manufacturer of the squashed racing Panther has replaced thier mold yet? Apparently it had been a known problem for three years, a year ago...


PS. I did find this thread which has a review-

quirkworthy19 May 2003 3:35 a.m. PST

My comments were based on photgraphs of real panthers, not on anyone else's model. I always refer back to photos of the real life equipment on any questions of accuracy.

As I said, it might be the angle the photos were taken from, but the Battlefront panther looks wrong. I don't suppose anyone has a photo of the model taken sirectly side on rather than the bird's eye view on the official site?

unknown member19 May 2003 4:12 a.m. PST

Go to the Yahoo group for Battlefront and pose your question there or do a search through the archives. I think this may have been addressed before. This board is monitored by the folks at Battlefront and they regularly respond to inquiries. Other list members will also likely be able to answer this question.


Blind Old Hag Fezian19 May 2003 10:02 a.m. PST

When I first bought the BF Panther I thought the same thing, it just looked too big. I usually don't fuss too much about the technical aspects of a WARGAMING model, if it looks like a Panther then it is okay for me. However the size of the BF Panther looked very odd. I couldn't figure out exactly why or where so I measured the model with a caliper and compared those measurements with blue print specs, wartime, and modern photos. While the overall height of the BF Panther is correct (within a millimeter IIRC) there is some discrepancy, either in the height of the road wheels/tracks, or in the hull itself, or both, I don't remember exactly. This is apparent when you place a 15mm foot fig next to the Panther and compare that to a WW2 photo, (and blue prints) you'll see that the model trooper doesn't size up right. Also, the length from the front of the tracks where it is tangent to the drive wheel and the back, where it is tangent to the rear most wheel was way too long by 3 or 4 millimeters. I asked the BF staff about the height discrepancy a while ago and was told that the person who sculpted the Panther model deliberately made the it a bit taller to account for infantry figures mounted on bases.

I don't buy that explanation because if it were true then you would expect other vehicles in the range to be consistantly taller. However other models in the BF range are nearly identical in length width and height to models by other manufacturers. For instance, the BF T/34s, KV-1, KV-2 are practically the same size (its hard to tell the difference in size, if any, from a few feet away) as the Old Glory models but the Panthers are obviously different. You can tell the difference in size from across the room. Now it may be that have older models from before they were re-sculpted if indeed the Panthers were re-sculpted.

I don't know how the BF Tigers match up with other manufacturers. I only have BF Tigers. After buying the completely mismatched BF and old Glory Panthers I learned my lesson.

I don't want to sound like I am trying to flame BF, cause i'm not. BF has great models, and their Panther is the best IMO. It is just that some models from BF or whatever company don't always match up well with models from other manufacturers. With certain models it is best to stick with one manufacturer.

Matt Stevens19 May 2003 1:28 p.m. PST

The height of tracks on all the Battlefront models is being increased by a mil or so (to take into account figure basing) as the model is revisited by Evan, our sculptor. Its an improvement (in our view at least!) we started on about a year or so ago to endeavour to ensure the height of the tank matched the height of the troops standing beside it.

Regards the Russian range, we haven't visited those models to make the changes yet, hence your observation.

Cheers! Matt Battlefront

Mako1319 May 2003 2:44 p.m. PST

The Old Glory panthers are squashed, but look okay from above, as long as they aren't placed alongside the BF ones.

Quality Castings also makes nice panthers. Comparable in quality to BF, but without the zimmerit detailing.

The Peter Pig ones are beautiful, IMHO, but are very pricy double that of their competitors on the U.S. side of the "pond". Also, no zimmerit coating, last time I checked. Their treads are the best in the business; most authentic of all the manufacturers, and the gun barrel is sufficiently large in diameter to be intimidating to opponents. ALL MANUFACTURERS SHOULD TAKE NOTE, AND ASPIRE TO THIS LEVEL OF DETAIL IN THEIR VEHICLES IN MY OPINION, SINCE IT DOES ADD SIGNIFICANTLY TO THE OVERALL IMPRESSION OF THE MODEL.

Many of the other manufacturers tread widths are too narrow, and the tread detail is impressionistic at best - actually quite poor overall in many cases, in relation to the rest of the vehicle. Peter Pig actually models the tread imprint extremely well.

Also, many of the manufacturers make gun barrels that are too thin, in my opinion. They appear to be smaller than scale, than in true diameter. I assume that the model maker may be scaling these down to the shell diameter, and forgetting to double this approximately, to account for the metal gunbarrel casing.

Overall, for price and quality, if I had to choose a tank with zimmerit, I would choose the BF ones. Supposedly, they are redoing some of their vehicles, but I have yet to see a new panther, so I can't comment. They also were supposed to have redone their tigers to fix the problems I listed above, but haven't seen these either. Still not sure how you tell when you are purchasing the latest model releases available for sale, but maybe Matt of BF can comment. I usually have to order via mail, since my retailer has a very limited selection of the BF vehicles, so this would also present a problem when trying to obtain the new releases.

unknown member19 May 2003 7:41 p.m. PST

quirkworthy, I have the new BF Panthers & Tiger 1's, right in front of me, actually. Your observation is correct, they are on the tall side, as are the Panzer III's.

It's really up to what you can tolerate. In a game, it won't matter. You should have many other things to worry about. The BF tanks, in spite of their size, are gosh darn nice.

Regarding the Tigers, here's how they compare. PP & OG are very similar in dimension, and are the closest to the real thing. PP is obviously 'state of the art' in detail & sculpting. QC's Tiger 1 is lower than the previous two, but can be raised to resemble the PP & OG (by lowering the treads). The BF is slightly higher & narrower than the previous three, but the detail & sculpting is excellent nonetheless.

If I were to just sit & stare at them, there's no doubt I would only have the PP Panther & Tiger. Howerver, in a game, the BF should not be overlooked. They add a nice variety to your force.

And to supplement Mako13, PP Panthers do have Zimmerit, both normal & with foliage cammo added. Excellent.

And I always say...don't compare the manufacturers, compare the models. All the lines have some real oddballs.

mrpicky200319 May 2003 11:57 p.m. PST

Sorry if this seems a bit obvious, but how about finding the true dimensions from the original vehicle specs, converting them to 15mm scale and checking the measurements of the models?

quirkworthy20 May 2003 12:51 a.m. PST

Hmmm,lots to ponder there.

Personally I'm not desperately fussed about the price. I'd rather pay a little more and have a better model. When I play a game I'd rather be thinking "wow these are great models" than "I saved a few pennies, so I supppose they'll do".

I think DrBig1 has the right idea. Pick the best ones from each of the available ranges. Unfortunately there isn't always consistency between manufacturers (despite claiming to be the same scale) so this is a bit tricky. I suppose what I really need is a site that compares them so I can tell what goes together. Anyone have any suggestions?

And with regards to zimmerit, I'd always prefer to have models without as adding it is a piece of cake compared to removing it. Only about half of the Panther Gs had zimmerit applied, and that was in a variety of patterns. Making one model with one pattern leaves little room for choice.

Hyposocial20 May 2003 7:16 a.m. PST

Why do you guys only care about Nazi war machines? Freakin Naziophiles!

unknown member20 May 2003 9:00 a.m. PST

Hey Hypo, look at who's reading a 'Panther/Tiger' thread!
HAH! Gotcha! You closet Nazi!

unknown member20 May 2003 9:45 a.m. PST

quirkworthy, what's your email. I can take some pics & send them to you.

Hyposocial20 May 2003 10:04 a.m. PST

BIGONE, you missed. your logic is flawed just like the furer's was...Come on, where else can I troll Nazis? Got YOU.

unknown member20 May 2003 12:26 p.m. PST

Hypo, I am flopping in the bottom of your boat.

Hyposocial20 May 2003 2:47 p.m. PST

Heil Hitler

Cameron21 May 2003 10:29 a.m. PST

All I have to say is this - first of all, the detail in the thread is amazing and one of the big reasons I visit The Miniatures Page.

Second - you guys shut up, paint your tanks, and game!!! (I mean that in a funny, good-natured way.) :)

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