"Are you offended by the Swastika?" Topic

As I understand it, the original banning of the swastica and other Nazi "regalia" in Germany and possibly elsewhere had little to do with the risk of giving offence, and everything to do with the risk of the bastards setting up shop again if they were given half a chance.

What country was not affected by World War 2. That war and its consequences have had an impact on every country. Maybe the original writer meant his country was not invaded by the NAZI or their War Government Jap allies. I am not offended by their symbols used in a historical context, just as I do not object to States Rights/slavery state flags with my ACW units, or the use of the Union Jack even though it was flown by troops who exterminated the Tasmanians, shot up innocent Irish foot ball fans or massacred Indians in a market place, etc. I only object to the use of those symbols to glorify the values of those who used them at the time.

Matsuru Sami Kaze

===A symbol whose ideology ruined empires, resulted in the extermination or death of 30-40 million people, mutilation and rape of millions more, upon whose deminse then sank the world into a forty year cold war, resulted in billions upon useless billions in military budgets, and ushered in the horror of an atomic age…is that symbol "offensive?"

Nah.===

The Rising Sun emblem? BTW, what is a deminse? Is that like a machine that reconstitutes meat after it has been through a mincer?

Cheers,

Pro…

I'm no nazi apologist, but I really don't see the point of trying to deny that some things occurred in the past, or that certain symbols were created to help support an ideology. Not seeing, or knowing about it, and trying to pretend it doesn't exist, or didn't exist plays right into the hands of those lunatics like the current leader of Iran. Better to let the symbols be shown, and to educate people as to what they meant, who supported them, why they are bad, and what occurred historically without trying to white-wash the past.

I too am offended by the historical revisionists, and politically correct types who try to eliminate it, and/or substitute a non-historical balkan cross in its place.

Next will be the elimination of the South's Civil War flags (this is already occurring in many states), and then proceeding with other issues, like no rising sun's for the Japanese, etc.

Pretty soon, there will be a law against wargaming, or depicting anything relating to military history by the pacifist types. No doubt, that has already been tried in some countries.

I am from India; I became familiar with the Swastika long before I knew that it was used by the Nazis. Several of my neighbours used to have painted versions in their houses, as did many temples.

As a symbol it doesn't offend me in the least. As a icon of Nazism, it certainly does.

I read up a bit about this on the Internet and found that the 45th Infantry Division of the United States Army used a yellow swastika on a red background as a unit symbol for a while! (1930s; it was switched to a thunderbird later)

link

Why was the swastica acceptable (except in Germany ) in the post war years up until the 1970'80's but latterly people who had no contact with the war are being offended? I find this political sensitivity bizzar.In General our Tommy or Yank who nearly got his head blown of by the B**&&^&s was not offended in 1955.This I reckon was probebly because the war made hime realise there were more important things in life to get into a sweat over.

I'm not offended because everytime I see it I am reminded that it is the symbol of a defeated nation that let itself be governed by incompetent, evil, buffoons. In addition, it reminds of the millions of people who suffered at their hands and should not be forgotten, and of the millions of people who covered themselves in glory defeating it like my grandfather who fought in North Africa and my grandmother who made tank shells.

"f I'm not wrong, its still in use in Europe as well, on Finnish air force planes."

Nope, we switched to blue&white roundel after the war.

link

The Hakenkreuz is not only Eastern. It can be found on many illustrations in pre christian Western Europe. The Wikings, for instance, use it to symbolize the suns path through the year. Hece it is known as "Sonnenrad" or sun wheel. The Kelts also made extensive use of it.

Except for the Thorrs hammer, which, incidentaly is synomonous, therefore interchangable with, the Sonnenrad, it is the most important symbol to our religion.

THAT is why we get seriously ed off when the place gets full of muslim/christian/jewish desert nomads, having wars over OUR lands, and then banning OUR symbols because of it.

Oh, and a bit of modern history to it.

The Hakenkreuz, along with other nazi symbols were banned in Germany in 1965. After there was a parade of ex SS men, where they flew their regimental banners.

In Berlin and other lands, Hamburg, Nordrhein-Westfallen for instance, the WWI naval battle ensign, and the black white red with the iron cross in the middle, are also banned. Because of the neo nazi s.

I don't know where this strange fantasy has come from that the swastika was 'acceptable' after the war until decreed abhorrant by the PC police in the last decade.

The swastika and other items of nazi regalia (helmets, eagles, uniform jackets, jackboots etc) was adopted by Hells Angels in the 60s and punks in the 70s precisely because they were completely offensive to all sundry, rather than indicating any adherence to Nazi philosophy.
The dialogue in e.g. 'The Wild Angels' indicates what WW2 veterans actually though of Angels riding around California sporting nazi emblems, similarly in e.g. 'Englands Dreaming' by Jon Savage the reaction of joe public to punks wearing swastika T-shirts etc is fairly accurately documented (ranging from terror and incredulity to physical assault).

Somewhat bizarely the rise of neo-fascism in the last 30 years hasn't seen the widespread adoption of the swastika by my neo-nazi groups, instead they seem to prefer to make up their own geometric red/white/black symbols, although I know that e.g. the US Nazi Party likes to stick to the tried and tested symbols.

I know that in the boardgame market, a lot of the elimination is to make the product saleable in Germany; probably the same with the model makers.

A more viable question might be "does Germany still need those laws?"

"Martin Rapier
Somewhat bizarely the rise of neo-fascism in the last 30 years hasn't seen the widespread adoption of the swastika by my neo-nazi groups,"

Well in mainland Europe, that is because it was, in most countrys, banned just in time.

" Secret Identity
I know that in the boardgame market, a lot of the elimination is to make the product saleable in Germany; probably the same with the model makers."

I once, in the late 70's wrote to matchbox or Airfix (One had them one didn't), about this. That WAS the reason they gave. So they did not need two production lines for countrys that allowed it and those that didn't.

"A more viable question might be "does Germany still need those laws?"

A more viable question is, given the bashing about neo nazi groups in the world press that we get allready, how much of a field day do you think they would have if these groups were to start flying the Hakenkreuz as well?

"Martin Rapier
Somewhat bizarely th…."

There is also the fact that the neo nazi groups in Europe, are trying to distance themselves from the Hitler past, as well.

Many groups DO still have all the Hakenkreuz flags, and Hitler portraits in private. As is shown by the moderately regular police dredges we have here.

(Damn button).

It is not an offence to have them, in private. BUT they are seen by the police and courts as evidence aginst any one accused of race crime, or being a member of an anti- constitutional group.

The swastika is no longer just a symbol.

The fact that it had it's roots in the American Southwest, Asia, or wherever else is no longer relevant. It is now the symbol of the NAZIS, and is synonymous with everything bad.

This is not the fault of people who would make the world more "PC" as some of us here have suggested. It is the fault of the NAZIS, and more recently of the neo-NAZIS.

Unless one of us here has had first, or perhaps second hand experience with the NAZIS crimes of WWII, we could not possibly understand what emotions the display of the swastika is capable of raising in people who have.

Suppose the USPS issued a stamp commemorating the events of 911 that showed the tower(s) collapsing. How many of us would be offended by this. I think I might.

Now imagine that same stamp being issued by, for the sake of argument, the Iranian postal service. How many of us would find that offensive?

To this day, I find news footage of buildings being demolished just a little bit disturbing. They remind me just a little too much of 911. It's just an example of how some images, or symbols can have powerful and longlasting impact on people's emotions.

Depends entirely on context.

If I see it on a (gaming) model, no prob.
I see it on a guy's t-shirt it begins to be a problem.

Just my opinion.

"mandt2
Unless one of us here has had first, or perhaps second hand experience with the NAZIS crimes of WWII, we could not possibly understand what emotions the display of the swastika is capable of raising in people who have."

My Grandmother had to escape to Sweden with the SD at her heels. Her Sister was caught and dissapeared.

Because they considered the Norse religion in Norway as a threat.

She still wore the sun wheel (Hakenkreuz/Swastika) till the day she died in 1984.

She swore that the nazi would not steal one of our most important symbolds from us.

So, at least in my family, your point is not valid.

Von Scharnhorst-

Which point are you referring to?

"Well in mainland Europe, that is because it was, in most countrys, banned just in time."

I was thinking of people like the British Movement or the League of St George, although for many years the symbol of the BM was just the standard swastika. IIRC they switched to a celtic cross in the early 80s.

Is the swastika banned in Italy? I noticed some fascists at a recent football game waving some sort of homegrown red/white/black geometric flag.

Anyway, swastikas on a model, no problem, swastikas on some nazi thug looking to build the fourth reich, no thanks.

I think it is a part of history and as a long as it is not displayed inaproapratly I don't have a problem ie neo-nazi or someone who is proud of it.
A couple of years ago here in the United states there was a big issue over the Rebel Flag and it still being on some state flags. I believe Georgia. Now being a Yankee I had no problem with it and I had not met to many people with an issue with it. The people who had issue said that it represented Slavery. No it didn't it represents Rebelion and states rites. Those people who said it was about slavery probably think the war was about slavery. Now if a KKK member is waiving a rebel flag yea I got a problem with it then.

Doesn't offend me at all, it makes a FINE aiming point.

mandt2
Von Scharnhorst-
Which point are you referring to?"

"mandt2
The swastika is no longer just a symbol.

The fact that it had it's roots in the American Southwest, Asia, or wherever else is no longer relevant. It is now the symbol of the NAZIS, and is synonymous with everything bad."

(Sorry. Got missed out of my first attempt :-) )

My point was, that even after people caught the bad side of it (My Granny and Great Aunt for example). Not every one sees it as a fault of the symbol it's self.

But as with most other posters here, she WOULD have been offended at the neo nazi's wearing it. Not because of the bad memorys, but because of "here we go again, our symbol being abused".

The result of the bad memorys would be directed against the people, not the symbol.

I was going to leave that Confederate Flag issue alone, but it makes a perfect example.

The issue is not what was at the root of the Civil War (though I would disagree with my fellow Yankee scourtien on this. The primary States Rights issue that the North and South were at odds on was slavery). That issue is what the symbol, in this case, the Confederate Flag, has come to represent. To most American blacks it is synonymous with the antebellum notions of slavery by the Southern States, and a very bad way of thinking. I can completely understand that.

Now, one might argue that some who fly the Confederate Flag do so not to promote segregation, but rather as a sign of independance or in support of less federal government control. But how are we to know this? How do we know that it's not some closet KKK or neo-NAZIS doing it for the very worst reasons?

And if you believe that black Americans should simply "deal" with it, then perhaps you can tell me why peoples of Southern States prefer the term "War of the Rebellion" over the "Civil War." Or why they prefer the Battle of Manassass to Bull Run, or why when you go into a gift shop at any of the battlefields in Southern States you are likely to see T-Shirts with Sherman's face Xd out.

Old wounds heal very slowly, sometimes never, and that's a fact. What may seem like nothing at all to you or me, may have profound meaning for others. And I believe that how sensitive we are to these issues is a measure of our intelligence, compassion, and level of respect for others.

So, when my Jewish friends come over, I put my model German airplanes away, and when my Black friends come over, I stash away all my ACW stuff. Am I being overly PC? Perhaps. But I'd much rather take the time to do these things, then to risk being thought of as an insensitive, ignorent dolt.

"My point was, that even after people caught the bad side of it (My Granny and Great Aunt for example). Not every one sees it as a fault of the symbol it's self.

But as with most other posters here, she WOULD have been offended at the neo nazi's wearing it. Not because of the bad memorys, but because of "here we go again, our symbol being abused".

The result of the bad memorys would be directed against the people, not the symbol."

Ah. I got it. I didn't mean to imply that everyone, without exception felt the same way. It sounds like your Grandmother and Aunt (Sisters?) are pretty tough ladies and I think it's pretty neat that they fight so stubbournly for their ideals. I'm hoping people will thank that about me when I'm a bonafide senior.

So, if I may rephrase, I think that the "NAZIS" version of the swastika means pretty much the same to just about anyone who is familiar with WWII history, perhaps even to your Grandmother who seems pretty P.O.d that the NAZIS co-opted a symbol that meant something positive to her, and in a sense corrupted it.

How's that sound?

Some people may be even offended because you play wargames because they suffered war and may think of you as insensitive. Sensibilities are too far and wide and the only way not to offend anyone is living isolated in a mountain, and even that is not a sure thing.

I put svastikas in my models, if someone is offended we can talk about it, agree playing something else or even not coming to the games I put with those models. But I refuse to condition myself just to the sensibilities of others, in fact I get offended for history denial, though I have to accept that point of view when I have purchased model planes that comes without it and will never demand anyone to put a svastika in it. I'm not a nazi nor anything close so I deserve the same respect to my views of history.

If someone gets offended because the svastika is in a game or a model they will sure get offended when you play WWII germans in a game.

"No it didn't it represents Rebelion and states rites."

A Josey Wales moment…

Allen

"mandt2
So, if I may rephrase, I think that the "NAZIS" version of the swastika means pretty much the same to just about anyone who is familiar with WWII history, perhaps even to your Grandmother who seems pretty P.O.d that the NAZIS co-opted a symbol that meant something positive to her, and in a sense corrupted it.

How's that sound?

Aye THAT's what I was trying to say. Thanks for translating. Your fees will be in the post. :-))

I would just add, if I may, that what you say here;

" I think that the "NAZIS" version of the swastika means pretty much the same to just about anyone who is familiar with WWII history,"

It was the ability to seperate the ideology from the symbol, that my Granny, (and my self, for that matter, I am the same religion as she was, after all),held to be important.

Hmpf. If my head was loose I would forget it.

" seperate the ideology from the symbol".

As far as we are concerned, wearing it "proudly" on a T-shirt, is not doing that seperation. In fact it is enforcing the bad image.

But as to models, my Granny allways inspected them, as Grannys do, and she would flip a loop if a swastika was missing. Because, in her words;

"That is the portrayal of history. If you start changing history in subtle ways, such as by leaving off the Hakenkreuz (from an Airfix Me 109), the next thing is that they have changed history enough to make Hitler the good guy".

Hey get this!

My wife just called and said that she had just seen a news story about sneakers. "From now on we only buy Nike and New Balance." Apparently, Adidas and Puma were founded by two German brothers, who had been NAZIS. In fact, she said that one brother had actually flipped on the other. Does anyone have any poop on this? Or is it all a nasty lie created by Nike and New Balance in an effort to undermine Adidas' World Cup exclusive?

Of all things, I thought it was pretty funny that she calls me today about this.

==
"Unless one of us here has had first, or perhaps second hand experience with the NAZIS crimes of WWII, we could not possibly understand what emotions the display of the swastika is capable of raising in people who have."
==

I think you're wrong, what you suspect is what they feel – it varies from person to person, but you _can_ understand what they feel. You just can't feel it. Lemme tell you the (very shortest version of) story.

My mother was a victim. from 14-18 she was in a Japanese camp (long story, ran from Germany six months after Kristalle Nacht, ended up in Shanghai).

She did not want me to own a Nazi flag, but the symbol on the models? Fully acceptable – that's what the original had on it. This is a woman who rolled under the bed when an airplane flew over too close, and who publicly verbally abused Neo Nazis more than once.

Even today, I think if I called her up and said "I think I'll get an SS uniform, she'd come all the way here and kick my butt (she's almost 80). But she's eyeballed my 15mm Afrika Korps (with Nazi flags on the vehicles) and then said "That Rommel was the only good general they had. Did you make the flags?" and walked off.

I'm offended when people want to use it as a rallying point and want to be like Nazis, but these threads always make me chuckle. The Clue Phone says that the communists killed a LOT more innocent people – including the very same ethnic minorities that the Nazis killed – than the Nazis, but people seem to find the red star – even the hammer and sickle – inoffensive while going into spaz fits about the swastika.

People are wierd.

I could go on about this all day.

::Mandt2::, define Nazi. See this makes me LOL too – technically, my grandmother was a Nazi. A card-carrying member of the party. But her husband was a Jew. So when she came to the states, should she have been persecuted? She agreed with the Nazis in social welfare issues, and believed that as they grew larger they would moderate the fanatic aspects. So that mistaken belief, which only changed when they came and took her son and husband away, does that make her a Nazi?

Not a chance. She got her husband and son out with her party influence, and they fled the country.

But she was technically a Nazi. The fanatic "Nazi Hunters" are blurring the line between "Member of the SA or SS" and "Member of the Nazi party", and in doing so are practicing a deception that should be beneath them. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the story your wife heard was true, but the real question isn't "did they belong to the party", but rather "did they do anything wrong?"

Don.

Schindler was a party member. Nuff said (?)

Mandt2 while I appreciate your sensetivety toward others I must ask Why you would deny history. Do you think that they do not know what those symbols represent? Perhasp more importantly, do you think they would not know what context you are representing them? Please understand I am not attacking you I am just amazed that your friends would not ask you about them and understand the history behind them. I am of the firm belief that it is better to show the dark side of history in all it's terrible glory than to disrupt it for the weak hearted. Every religion and gov't has a mark against it. We are all "guilty by association" maybe centuries later but guilty none the less.

==
"Unless one of us here has had first, or perhaps second hand experience with the NAZIS crimes of WWII, we could not possibly understand what emotions the display of the swastika is capable of raising in people who have."
==

"I think you're wrong, what you suspect is what they feel – it varies from person to person, but you _can_ understand what they feel. You just can't feel it. Lemme tell you the (very shortest version of) story."

You say I'm wrong, and yet you've cited a case that is an example of what I said. :/

"See this makes me LOL too"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Why does this make you laugh? The definition and history of the NAZIS is clearly and voluminously documented, unless you hope to redfine it, which I suggest you might want to take to a different thread—one that argues for the existance of good "NAZIS." This one is about the display of swastikas.

BTW, I understand that the current pope was in the Hitler youth. That doesn't change the meaning of the HL or NAZIS or the meaning of the sawstika. It simply implies that he eventually came to his senses. We hope.

Hi Patrick-

I'm not denying history. In fact, I'm being hyper-conscious of it. I understand the special impact certain events and nations in history have had, and how certain symbols or words associated with them can offend people because of their experiences. So, when possible, as an act of courtesy to those that might be troubled by the display of such, I choose to err on the side of caution. In other words, I know that the swastika likely means to Jewish people, they know what it means to them, so why would I want to be a rat about it? To be deliberately mean? This is not the most noble way to exercise one's freedom of speech.

I don't think we are talking about denying history here. Rather we are talking about the unneccessary or out of context display of a swastika. In fact, when we see such a display, don't we immediately assume the possibility that the displayer is looking for trouble?

And I agree with you that there are many symbols that offend many people. The American flag is burned with great frequency around the world.

Let me be clear though. All of my micro armor German aircraft have the historically accurate swastika on the tails, and all of my 10mm ACW confederate leader stands fly the Confederate flag.

Yeah I get that but if you are friends with Blacks and Jews who know you, would they not give you the benefit of the doubt. I was actually surprised you hid these from friends. I could of course understand if guests of these nationalities or religion you did not know well. I could see you ease them into it, so to speak. I just thought them seeing your miniatures could open dialogue between you. I would relish the oppourtunity to talk openly with people about thier feelings on such things. Alas I also fear offending people and I am not close enough to people of color to pick thier brain so to speak.

New Balance tennis shoes suck….

The ones I bought didn't last three weeks before starting to fall apart.

Maybe they were made or designed by someone from the Imperial Japanese Army looking to get even with Westerners for being defeated in the last World War. Very sneaky tactic….

The GM

===…inoffensive while going into spaz fits about the swastika.===

Some people, not me however, would be offended by this comment too.

Cheers,

Pro…

If offended I recomend you avoid Indian weddings, they are everywhere. My mum was initially rather shocked when she came to my wedding in Rajistan!

The symbol that is – though go at the right time and I'veno doubt the weddings would be everywhere as well!

As for Rommel being the only good general – who was that other chap in Africa who ran rings round the allies and the UK ended up paying his pension?

if i see the swastika tattooed on someone, i have to fight back the urge to beat the living out of them.

"Yeah I get that but if you are friends with Blacks and Jews who know you, would they not give you the benefit of the doubt."

Hi Patrick-

I'm sure they would. But what would that say about me that I would force my friends into a position where they would have to give me the benefit of the doubt? In fact, if I did so, wouldn't that be a very strong indication that I was a self-centered dolt, and didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt?

Let me put it this way. I like being PC. Nobody's perfect, I make mistakes, but I try my best. It's really not so hard. While I will always try to give the people I meet the benefit of the doubt, I do not expect they afford the same courtesy to me. I hope they won't need to.

If it turns out that we are both compatible in our opinions, and we have developed a level of trust, then we can discuss the more weighty and potentially volatile issues.

Procopius – you're right.

My apologies all, I'll give my short answer:

In an historical setting I am not at all offended by it, and it deeply concerns me that 60 years after the regime was defeated, we (the whole world) continue to give the symbol power by having to ask such questions.

Mandt2 – I did not intend the LOL to be directed at you or your ladywife, but rereading it, that's not clear at all. I was directing it at those who hunt 'Nazis' and the press that follows them around to feed on the next kill. As time goes on and the prey dies off from old age, the hunters are pointing in ever-widening circles, and acting more and more like those they wish to bring 'justice' to. It's either laugh or cry. I choose to laugh.

Again, sorry for the rant, I think we (the world) dwell on Nazis and their symbology too much and don't pay attention to other evils that are just as horrific. But my presentation was more like my best impersonation of a Troll than a reasonable statement relevant to the thread. At my age I should know better.

Don.

Hey GM, Don't think twice about it. I didn't take it negatively, and as for my wife, I laugh at her all the time.

Actually, this has been an amazing thread. We've handled a positively treacherous topic with restraint, and if I may say to all of my friends here, quite a bit of class.

However, I have really OD'd on this topic. It's been a lot of fun guys, but I simply have to move on, or I'll start sticking pins in my eyes.

See ya'all round the boards gents, and I emphasize "gents."

Don't forget that a member of the Nazi party saved about 10,000 Chinese at the German legation during the rape of Nanking. History is more grey than black and white.

Do not give a fig.

The swastika, as a pre-nazi christian/scandanavian/asian emblem, is quite evident in the uk; only recently, the Bolton Evening News ran a story concerning apparent outrage at the presence of swastika as part of a tiled floor pattern, in a local bank (built some time between 1900 and 1920), and on my stroll into town, I noticed swastika unobtrusively adorning the brickwork of a row of Victorian terraced houses, within spitting distance of my junior school – I often wonder whether this was linked to the late 1800s/turn of the century fashion for Eastern culture.

Like most here I'm not offended by the symbol, but rather what was done under it.

What seems to be behind this is – marketing – pure and simple. In some countries (Germany I know is one of them…) it is ilegal to portray the swastika image. Sooo in order to sell in those countries you cannot offer a swastika.

The reason I say this is there does not seem to be any moralistic hue and cry about including the Japanese Hinomaru (red "meatball" image) on Japanese planes… or the imperial Japanese flag. Last time I checked the Japanese military massacred thousands in China, pressed Korean women into duty as "comfort women", killed as many American troops at Pearl Harbor in a sneak attack raid as died on D-Day, and as far as I know were guilty of murdering American POWs.

Double standard? Uh..yes.

But I suppose I should shut my mouth before someone gets the idea and starts shipping Japanese WW2 aircraft with REAL meatballs as decals… uh, marinara sauce anyone?

Der Oberst

I'm about as offended by the swastika as I am by the Enola Gay & Lancaster bombers.

von Scharnhorst, I am truely impressed by your Grandmother.