"Are you offended by the Swastika?" Topic

I have seen the trend by plastic kit companies of not including the swastika in model planes (and other kits). Got me wondering, do you think it is a good idea? Why would it make it more (or less acceptable) either way? If we go along those lines, would we end banning the french imperial and roman eagles?
I am interested in your collective opinions, and not just trolling along. I was born in a country not afected by WWII, so it does not touch a nerve. I am curious on the opinion of those who were.

Beowulf

What was done under the banner bearing it offends far more, but also of offense is the irreparable damage done to what was a symbol of good fortune prior to Hitler getting hold of it…

I'm offended by the ideology that it represents, not by the image…. My German planes have swastikas, because German planes had swastikas. End of story.

With regards to the plastic kits issue, it has to be considered that in some countries *any* representation of a swastika is illegal, so either (a) they don't sell there (b) they produce two different sets of artwork, or (c) they just omit the swastikas….

Dom.

Oh, and Farstar of course races a good point; the Finnish hakaristi is nigh-on identical, and dates to 1918, while it's been an eastern (Hindu?) symbol for much longer….

I'm offended by its removal. It's a part of history, why must the PC crowd gloss over things like that? Pretending it didn't happen is what gets us into trouble over and over again.

I mean, look at Pirates of the Carribean at Disneyland Resort! They took out the pirates chasing the women and replaced them with pirates chasing women carrying food and drink!! Sheesh. Pirates raped and pillaged, that's the way it goes. Now the story reads that they attacked and sacked the Spanish town for some good food and drinks…

I think part of the reason its not included in many model kits is because in several European countries its banned by law. Of course, plenty of aftermarket companies sell decal of them.

Regardless, it existed and its part of the legacy. If you try to hide it under a rock, it doesn't mean it didn't exist. I'm in the states, but IMHO, it would be better to let it hang out there as part of "what was", much like Napoleans Eagles or any other symbol.

It doesn't bother me, but what the Nazi's did, does bother me; and, that, I think, is where we ought to make the difference.

Use a small diameter drill bit in either a pin vise or rotary tool to punch the four corners. Then connect the dots using an X-acto knife or foam core cutter. Cut 3 times as noted by others. The last cut could be done from the opposite side, since if you drilled the corner holes at proper right angles, everything will line up.

Also, remember you can cover it up with window trim.

*sigh*

Those ignorant of history or directly effected by the Nazis will probably find it offensive.

The swastika predates Nazi Germany like the cross predates Christianity (no…I am not contrasting Nazis to Christians). If anyone wants to be deluded or angry its their right to be so.

I personally would not wear a swastika on my clothing but if it was on a tank, building, etc for modelling or wargaming that's fine by me. Mind you, we had no WW2 casualties in the immediate circles of my family.

No. Just the idiots who wear it.

I agree with Kelheos. It is part of history and as such belongs on the model. While on the subject, at one the the Orlando parks, they had a model of the Hindenburg with the Nazi flag on the tail. The only problem was they put a plus sign (+) type cross where the swastika should have been. So I say to myself "O.K. some people may get offended and this is an amusement park after all". We then went to the live action "Indiana Jones show". What do we see but the German flying wing with a great big swastika on it. I'm still not sure what to make of that. It's O.K. if it's just a movie but not if it is historical?

Musketeer, you and I think alike on this. I am offended by the folks who wear it because they think it is cool, or they believe in the Nazi ideology/are racists. Both of my grandfathers fought against those ideas in WW2.

As a historical model builder I like accurate markings on my kits, but I do not have like the ideas represented by any sysmbol.

nope. no offense here.

VCarter and Keltheos make great points…

when history is the victum of being Pollitically Corrupt…oops…"correct", then we all are victums.

No. I tend to agree that the lack on inclusion has to do with European laws banning the symbol.

More then the symbol I find the re-writing of history to be offensive. From time to time there have been individuals that have claimed that the holocaust didn't occur. That's offensive.

The swastika did not commit the acts of the Holocaust! Goons wearing it did. Nuff said.

No, I am not offended by the swastika in its historical context. I am offended by the modern day jerk-offs who sport it (I hate Illinois Nazis).

No

I don't find it offensive, it is just a symbol, much in the same way that Soviet planes display a red star, or American tanks a white star.

I can however appreciate the attachment with all things Nazi, if you want to use it to glorify the Nazis, then that is bad, if you are using it in its historical context, as used on German vehicles, then thats OK in my book.

Remember, as already stated, the swastika is banned across a few european countries, and in Germany they want to try and put that bit of their past behind them, and move forwards, and there is nothing wrong with that either.

I agree with you all. It's the same for the weapons: they are not dangerous but some of the man having them yes.

This kind of offence is usually a political escamotage lake in my country: swastikas and Fasci MUST be removed as a dangerous reminder of the past but Red flags no as they were Saints & Pure (hi, over North Korea, Chine and Cuba, we're the only country with a communist President…)

I do not find the swastika offensive, i find the idea that people think it was s symbol designed by the Nazis as offensive. Even as a teacher, i still hear people saying that the Swastika was a Nazi symbol, not even mentioning that the symbol has been used for 1000s of years before the Nazi party uses it.

As yes, my 1/300 planes have swastikas on them, if the actual plane did.

-S.T.

I was talking to a Black co-worker today about the Confederate flag. I asked him if it is offensive to the Black people he knows. He said no. He thought that anyone who would call someone out for owning that flag was looking for trouble themselves. He thought if they were not hurting anybody than what's the difference? I suspect that many Jews would feel the same. It's just a symbol. Anyone who reads into a symbol without talking to the person who has that symbol is also guilty of pre-judging. No I am not offended by any symbols and believe they have significant value as conversation pieces to open dialouge.

I think the use of the swastika is a human right. If that is denied a thin end of a very big wedge will be unleashed by the PC brigade. Where will that sort of ideology and cencorship take us……straight back to the fascism it used to represent.
Indeed the use of the emblem is in itself a reminder to us of the evil of the ideology and regime that used it, thus never letting those with sense forget, and consequently denying those that trog behind it politicaly any cosequential say in the future.

On a side note It would seem that its use now is more sensitive than immediately after the war, in fact many people well into the 1970s including many war vets never made the fuss that some latter day sensitive types seem to today. Just wondering why that is? Why should someone who never experienced the war or someone that was never born take offense now.

Not as part of a model kit or in a historical context, no.

A symbol whose ideology ruined empires, resulted in the extermination or death of 30-40 million people, mutilation and rape of millions more, upon whose deminse then sank the world into a forty year cold war, resulted in billions upon useless billions in military budgets, and ushered in the horror of an atomic age…is that symbol "offensive?"

Nah.

Nope.

I am not offended at all by it, but definetly by who it came to represent. I am also offended by the attempt to re-write it out of history, or remove someone's free speech.

Nazi variety? Absolutely. AND it's still a part of history, so my "ratzi" forces sport them where it is accurate and appropriate for them to do so.

Hakaristi? Nope. Old Scandahoovian symbol of good luck.

Bhuddist Four Directions? Nope. Have a samurai unit that'll be wearing sashimonis with this symbol under construction as it is.

Native American symbol of the cycle of life? Nada. Not offended a bit.

Like most such things, *moi* tries his level best to keep things in perspective…>;D

Cheers!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Depends on how it is used. If it is displayed in a historical context, such as in a historical movie, art, or model kit, then it is nothing more than an additional bit of history.

On the other hand, when displayed outside of a historical context, such as graffiti, or embroidered on clothing, almost without exception it reflects the opinions of the "artist" and as such is offensive, particularly by those at whom the emblem is targeted. Because make no mistake, those who display this emblem are also displaying their opinions.

That said, equating the swastika with the content of the Pirates of the Carribean attraction of Disneyland is a horrible analogy. One concerns a symbol that represents the worst kind of behavior that humanity can imagine, and is frequently displayed as a form of terror attack. The other concerns changes to a universally loved attraction resulting from someone's notion of appropriate behavior in the company of cartoon pirates and ladies of the night. They are not even in the same galaxy.

July 7th mateys. It won't be long now.

I agree with all of you.

But the PC behind it could affect our games. I like to have my models with the svastika in them because it's historic and we like replaying history, not promoting any ideology. Same with the colonial era, the modern african wars, communist sign, etc… We play historic games.

I know many models will not be sold with the svastika because it's forbidden in some countries like Germany or France (do not know if there are others), also as I know the EU was thinking of forbidding it in all EU (very stupid and shortsighted censorship policy, covering it like if it has never existed).

I wonder if the toofatlardies friends would have had any problems in a show or a game with any bigot. Their games have svastikas for the "blinds" counters (as it was the German flag).

As a modeller/wargamer of 30 years standing I have no strong views pro or anti swastika, although trying to pretend it never existed (a la Airfix)is just laughable.
I do however despise the movement which it represented and take exception to wargamers and modellers who glamourise the Waffen SS in particular.

If you ban one symbol you should ban them all. What about the people that are offended by images of the cross or the cresent, should we allow those who are offended by the US flag to get their way? No symbol should be banned, it just makes it more of an attraction for the extremists. It's about time the nazi symbol was reclaimed for history and taken away from the racists and pc idiots.

I knew there was a reason I do not do moderns…
VR
James Mattes

It all depends on context. When I was young I painted some nazi dwarfs for Warhammer, with red armbands and swastikas. I thought it was a fun thing to do. Now I know better and only my WW2 german planes have them, and one or two tanks has a flag draped across their hoods.

What is disturbing is that by more or less banning swastikas neo-nazis find other similar symbols to use; which eventually will leave no symbols left. I know people who can't tell the difference between the Iron Cross shape (a templar's cross originally I think?) and the swastika.

Gripping Beast do a very nice Carthaginian Elephant, with a Howdah, for £10; I'm just painting a couple up.

Of course, the accuracy of them having a howdah is debatable, but they do look good. They do a dying elephant too.

Simon

I think the reason 'why' the symbol is simply banned in many countries is that trying to legally define what is a 'justifiable' use (and what isn't) can't be done.

Many modern 'movements' would make use of any loopholes to display the symbol (thus negating the ban).

The swastika is already banned in Germany, Austria, Hungary, France and Poland.

I have no problem painting the cross on German AFVs, and as this was the 'national emblem' it is correct.

The only time a swastika was used on AFVs was for the air recognition flag. Its use isn't prominant in wargaming (unless you want it to be).

But like I said, allow its use for 'justifiable' reasons, and you muddy the legal waters. Its sad that even today, some still want to fly the symbol for the very reasons it was banned in the first place.

Not what I said. I know nothing of Cathaginian elephants.

What I DID post was a bit of irony "agreeing" with Matsuru Sami Kaze that we should, indeed, ban the Hinomaru.

No.

I don't think we're talking about "banning" here. I believe the original term was "offended." We can be offended by something, and still believe it should not be banned. I agree with the above fellas that "banning" the swastika would only give it greater notoriety than it deserves.

It really boils down to how it is displayed. The problem with the swastika is that it has been entirely co-opted by the Nazis. And because it is still being used by hate groups today, remains a symbol of "evil."

When I see a swastika portrayed as part of a hate crime, I find it offensive, not to me, but rather I am offended by the fact that innocent people are hurt by it. Why would anyone want to invoke the one symbol that so universally represents everything bad. Why would someone want to send this message to people they probably have never even met? The answer is clear. It is to cause pain. THAT offends me.

Thanks for your opinions, gents! I appreciate it.

The swastika is evil, vile, nauseating and repugnant. The swastika is offensive, derogatory and indecent. It is a disturbing, malicious and egregious sign of bad taste. Doe this answer your question? Yet, if you mention it while I am around I wouldn't blink and eye. But then again not many things in this world make me blink. :}

nope- swastika is just a sign. I'm offended by bigots, racists, murderers, sociopaths….

Matsuru,

Did you mean the hammer and sickle? I thought the Swastika was the bone of contention. ; )

To be serious, though, I think it is something best left to the sensitivities of the producers of the kit, miniature, art or whatever. In that way, the maker runs the risks of their convictions. If one chooses not to display the objectionable symbol, they themselves are responsible for the sales lost to the purist, and those gained from those finding the symbol objectionable.

The same is true of the shop owner. Let them be responsible for their own convictions. They have the option to not order the item, order the item and confine it's display, not display it at all, or stick it in the front window.

In so doing, there is a better chance that they will confront their true feelings on the issue. Is their desire to make money off the item outweighing the level of disgust they feel for the symbol? Do they simply not have an issue with it? Will it be worth the difference in sales lost to a competitor with differing sensibilities?

If you, as a consumer, walk into a store, do you have a better idea of the sensibilities of the business, if (a.) They choose not to display items bearing the objectionable symbol based on their own convictions. Or (b.) If they don't display the symbol because a governing body banned it's appearance. I, for one, would opt for the former.

I agree with those saying the ban contributes to it's appeal. We have similar precedents in history. The backfire effect of the Prohibition era in the U.S. is one good example. Consumption of alcohol increased, the creation of a new class of criminal precipitated the explosion in organized crime, smuggling of more illicit drugs increased. The absence of regulated liquor led to the consumption of beverage with all manner of noxious ingredients, often resulting in serious illness and death.

Ken

Offensive, no. To be truly offensive it needs to be a tatoo. Of a number. On a Jewish friends arm. If you haven't seen it, take a look at Sunday's Non Sequitur here: link
The swastika offensive. Not nearly as much as a number on your friends arm.

Not offended by the image unless the person "bearing" it (or bearing the things that have it) goes waaaaaay overboard with it in quantity or "in your face" size.

I do have a pity on those that only do things to get a rise out of others (like me), they have such a craving for undue attention.

The most bizarre thing I've seen in a European plastic kit is a little collection of black 'L's on the decal sheet… There was no explanation of what they were… Then I worked it out… It was a make-it-yourself Swastika! :o) Sheesh, it was easier to paint it than line up all those little bits!

A more annoying piece of censorship was a DAK halftrack kit that some jobsworth had vandalised by attacking the TINY swastikas in the DAK palmtree symbols with a black marker pen – destroying almost every other decal in the process.

The Swastika is an internationally-recognised symbol for a temple. Have a look at any modern Japanese road map and you'll find thousands. Is it offensive? Of course not! It is used in the correct historical context. Similarly, German aircraft had swastikas on the tail – it is not offensive to depict them ACCURATELY.

I think that the main problem here stems from the classification of model kits and wargames in the EU as 'Toys'.

Gaijin79 & Palafox hit it right on the nose.

As long as a sizeable % of a company's profit will be effected by a law (banning of the swastika), then regardless what any of you may think, I agree with exclusion of the symbol…the coin is king and I don't want to see those model companies fold because of lack of profits.

Personally, I am offended by it for pretty much the reasons stated above by others. But it does not bother me when used as a teaching tool, historical fact, etc. But as soon as it is used a rallying device or worshipped…then it is time for it to be banned and thoses in its cause be put to the sword.

Yes and No.

On models and history books I don't find it offensive.

When I see people wearing it I do.

Not offended in any fashion.

I do think folks who wear them are turds but offended? No.

I rather enjoy some European's reactions when they go to India and find themselves surrounded by swastikas.

Its an ignorant Euro-centric behaviour with no sense of history. Its been used 9 years-ish out of 1000+ years of usage by a person who wasn't too clear about its meaning.

If I'm not wrong, its still in use in Europe as well, on Finnish air force planes.