"Tournament space already cut for Historicon" Topic

Oh and there were 309 Exhibitor badges and most are gamers. We (I) have counted them for at least four years so it is nothing new. The only change in the way we count folks is we have seperated GMs when we change the rules for GM entry. Now they have thier own attendance number line.

VR
James Mattes

John Bianchi 05 Jun 2006 2:38 p.m. PST wROTE:

I'm sure you don't want me and others like me going away because there's no room at the inn. Especially if the lack of room is a situation created by HMGS, resulting in a self-inflicted wound.

Smarten up, HMGS. The customer is always right.

John,
We already have many a gamer not return to Historicon over the years. I do not have the numbers in front of me but it is a lot. One of the prime reasons noted from those who did not return was over crowding, and unavailability of hotel rooms.

If providing the largest Historical Miniature Gaming conventions in the Free World (Hcon, Cold Wars, and Fall In!) and Historical Miniature Gaming's Biggest Summer Vacation (Historicon) is what you call a self-inflected wound all I can say is guilty as charged.

VR
James Mattes

James get your facts ri and your count!

I did not say Historicon counts people like that. I said some conventions and we know the ones that are often referred to as counting in that method. Historicon never did that in the 19 years that I was invited as a dealer. But if you really think that 7,000 different gamers came to the show, then I doubt your count. A more reasonable number in my notes are 2,500 to 3,000 people.

So if you are saying James that you had 7,000 last year. What a joke!

One badge per table sounds about right for dealers. About 10% also sounds about right.

Greetings,

The main reasons that I have heard from people who did not return to Historicon were money/family concerns (summer scheduling is often tough), been-there-done-that malais, and HMGS/NASAMW politics — NOT in that order. :)

I have never heard anyone seriously complain about space (minor gripes aside), although I have heard people wish that more dealers could be squeezed in. The only whining about hotels is usually price – the Host is SO expensive in the summer! :) Thankfuly, there are a lot of hotels on The Strip.

BTW – Thanks James and Duncan for answering questions and being visible on hobby forums.

Ken

Mr. Adams – The indications I've gotten are that there's no room at the inn (At least for WAB, where we've been told it could be as bad as a 20% cut!) Is there a plan to add additional tables to make sure events don't get downsized? If so, who should the guys in charge of the WAB events get ahold of so the event doesn't get downsized out of existance?

Mr. Mattes – Your 7000 number seems to be off from what was listed in the HMGS lists awhile ago by Pat Condary. He was listing ~3K people, which is less than half what you are talking about. Is there some discrepency that wasn't accounted for? Also, these numbers seem to indicate that attendance went down by about 400 people last year, so this constant growth thing seems like a bit of a farce. The tourney area has seen pretty decent growth recently, judging by all the numbers I've looked at for event sizes. What's being suggested as far as downsizing the table density seems counter-intuitive.

Raymond K. Crum

Rkajdi 05 Jun 2006 5:36 p.m. PST

"Mr. Adams – The indications I've gotten are that there's no room at the inn (At least for WAB, where we've been told it could be as bad as a 20% cut!) Is there a plan to add additional tables to make sure events don't get downsized?"

Yes, but it is not final. Please be patient.

"If so, who should the guys in charge of the WAB events get ahold of so the event doesn't get downsized out of existance?"

The tournament coordinator, Scott Holder, is responsible for communication between the convention and the tournament events planners.

"Mr. Mattes – Your 7000 number seems to be off from what was listed in the HMGS lists awhile ago by Pat Condary."

Ray, you and Rudy on the one hand and James on the other are talking past each other. He is saying that the 7000 count is a total for all 3 East conventions in 2005.

Duncan Adams
HISTORICON 2006 Events Manager

Pat has not been on the board nor had access to the database for some time. My numbers (the organization numbers) come from the database. 7131 was the attendance last year. The conventions have grown and we do track the same why for many a year.

Ray you are confusing 2005 numbers for ONE convention. Pat was commenting on trends at Hcon BUT to be accurate 2004 Hcon was 3102 and 2005 was 3280. Once again my numbers are from the database. Pat often records the numbers we give at the Sunday morning meeting of the convention and I report as a prilimiary number on the Intercom in the Exhibitor hall about noon on Sunday. As I am the one who has been doing them and I get them from the database manager I think my numbers are pretty good and as good as you can get. There are always a few no shows and some who do not get a badge and a few who pass badges around to there is a few numbers that will be off.

For example I only register my boys if they are in an event. They attend along with my wife who does not get a badge.

Bill goes back over the data from the conventions and give me final numbers about a month after the convention and I post them to the forum. Those are the official and most accurate numbers. Anything else is not.
VR
James Mattes

"James get your facts right…"

Duncan Thanks for the clarification. That number makes sense based on my notes from my shows there for all three shows.

Rudy,
I can not help but think you still have issues over your not being an exhibitor at the convention (hcon) of late. Fair enough. When was the last historicon you attended? Also were are you getting your notes from?

VR
James Mattes

Dear Walt

You havehit the nail on the head. The question is not answerable by addressing one issue. The question of "Are you willing to pay for it" extends not only to the convention center cost, but to the associated hotels which are likely to cost far more per night per room than the host. Then there are associated costs with food, restaurants, etc., placed to entertain the wife and kiddies, and of course increased costs in dealer tables, which I am told is the main source of funding from the conventions. But those increased costs will be passed on by the dealers to the attendees. At some point there comes to even the most hardcore gamer the question of diminishing returns.

But beyond that there is the great imponderable of "the convention experience" which is not at all directly translatable into dollars and cents and indeed, may not even be expressible, but which is the major draw for most gamers, I imagine. This is undoubtably different for most gamers. What the "convention experience" will be at a bigger, glitzier, fancier, larger, facility is problematic.

Lord Snooty

"…Different cons count people different ways. Some conventions count a person a different for each day that you attend. So if you are there Thurs-Sun you actually count as 4 people…."

'james' from my original post. I do not see the word Historicon in it. i did not say Historicon this time and do not recall using historicon last year either, though I cannot recall the thread exactly as you apparantly can.

So 'james' I still am waiting for a correction and apology on your part. though maybe 'james' does not do that.

In regards to my attendance at Historicon, it is not your business, 'james' but since I attended one of the first in 1984 and and did so for 19 straight years, you can do the math, I think.

I even attended the one in 2003 even though I had had a stroke only 6 weeks earlier. That is how much I wanted to support Historical gaming in the USA.

i still support those organizations which are kind enough to invite me to their shows including HMGS-South, HMGS Mid-South, HMGS-Tornado Alley (Texas), TSS-Raleigh and HMGS-Gulf South as well as others that I am able to attend.

James wrote:

"We already have many a gamer not return to Historicon over the years. I do not have the numbers in front of me but it is a lot. One of the prime reasons noted from those who did not return was over crowding, and unavailability of hotel rooms."

James,

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad that Historicon and all the events HMGS runs are such a success. I LOVE them and I certainly keep coming back. What's more, I'd like to keep coming back, and I'd also like to know there will be space for me – in the hall.

For the record, my clubmates and I don't mind rubbing elbows to do it, yet, aside of the flea market area, there has never been a crunch problem when you're playing in the lampeter room from my point of view. Perhaps this is because I am a good deal smaller than most people who attend, but I honestly don't think so.

"If providing the largest Historical Miniature Gaming conventions in the Free World (Hcon, Cold Wars, and Fall In!) and Historical Miniature Gaming's Biggest Summer Vacation (Historicon) is what you call a self-inflected wound all I can say is guilty as charged."

Well, I think you missed my point. I don't mean to insult by repeating it: sending the message to people who come every year that they won't be able to get in is not good business, and if they don't show up – the loss of revenue created by HMGS own policy would be the self inflicted wound to which I referred.

Hence my comment about serving customers. I run a business and I deal with hundreds of clients/customers who want what they want and if we don't deliver, they go elsewhere. Certainly, your first comment confirms that you understand this point.

But James, seriously, don't sweat the point of my post. I expect – as you stated – that you want as many people as possible accommodated; certainly, I'd hope that we have as many of our people attend as last year, if not more.

Considering the vituperative so evident in most posts, I can really understand that you may be somewhat rattled. You really MUST be feeling the pressure from all these people above who want to attend, but who are afraid they can not. There's a lot of positive passion out here that can, unfortunately, translate into anger.

I don't envy your situation, and I hope that you and the rest of HMGS concerned can figure a way out that continues the growth and success of what I consider the best event of the year.

Still no clarification comment by 'james'. I answered your ridiculous questions in regards to my 'history' at Historicon. Maybe a simple apology or simple acKnowledgment of the clarification as given by Duncan.

Yeap, you have not been to Historicon or the other HMGS-East conventions in some time. You are correct.

Rudy, everyone can see on any convention posting where you try and insert a ding on HMSG-East. You were wrong and that is that…

VR
James (with a capital "J") Mattes

James you really do not want me to start 'dinging' HMGS-East. Too much ammo since the Young Lions' took over.

So I attended for 19 straight years. How many years have you attended?

Cutting my dealer space back from 4 then 3 then 2 and then one was just too much. And the last was because you wanted to find space for a non-historical dealer.

A real shame how the faithful from when the show was just starting in Carlotn MD and harrisburg PA is treated.

Unlike you 'james' , I state the facts pro or negative about any convention that I attend or have attended. If you check the record of TMP posts, I have posted 'in the past' more positive supporting comments about HMGS than negative.

Of course as a mouthpiece who has to sgin everything with their title (whoop-ti-do), you will spout only the info that you have been told to say.

You really handle a lot of bashing from a lot of people including HMGS-East members ( And I was one of those LOOONG before you, though not now)

Just hurt me to the quick that you did not even say thank you fior the effort of going to the show only weeks after my stroke. And since the stroke, I no longer curry favor from those who do not desrve it or stoke egos of people just to be granted a courtesy which should not have to be asked for.

I may add some more later but I have to let my blood pressure go down some.

"…Too much ammo since the Young Lions' took over…" Well actually James your group is not the Young Lions that I am refering to… You are maybe the second generation.

Hey Rudy I still have all the program books I have gone to going back to the late 80s. I attended several including the first! I did miss a convention here and there from 1986 until I moved to D.C. in 1991. Since 91 I think I have missed two or three due to deployments. I was to be back in time for Fall In! 1993 but a little thing called TFR keep me deployed. When I decided to retire I approached Bill Gray and Bob Giglio about becoming more active to support the hobby and the organization. Around Summer 2001, I did get delayed for about six months with stop loss but in April of 2002 I started working where I could for the organization.

Del Stover asked me to assist with some promotional ideas and I have been working pretty hard to get the word out via the internet about our conventions and the organization.

I do not have to spin anything. The attendance speaks for itself. It is a shame that some with hidden and not so hidden agendas (old personal animosities, different views on what the organization is, and just some who have nothing better to do then grip about the organzaion. I might add that some here and on many HMGS thread have never been a member or attended even one convention) have attempted to make mountains out of mole hills.

Attendance data speaks for itself. You do not see the data first hand, I do. I make a good faith effort to report to the members and the exhibitors the attendance figures and our other organizational data. Not required to I might add.

Twice in the past few months you have indirect (on threads about HMSG) stated that we count attendance by day. NOT TRUE. Every thread where there is something about any HMSG chapter you attempt to weigh in with a dig at EAST. Don't believe me look that the posting on the news article on HMSG-South's new home.

You have resentments over losing what you thought was your rights to table space at Historicon. Before my time on the board by the way, you should take it up with your bubby Jay.

As for signing my "title" for the organization or "military " where I am posting from that point of view yes you are correct. When I post regarding official HMGS policy or position or initiative I clearly identify the posting as such. More so that folks do not accredit everything I say on line as "official" HMGS-East psn or policy. I have CLEARLY stated that many many times on line.

As to signing my postings I have always attached my name to my postings just good manners that many do not understand or comprehend. One should own up to ones words or keep their opinions to oneself.

Young Lion? Please, I have been active in this hobby for over 30 plus years. I have been a member of East for almost 20 off and on. I have set in almost every membership meeting since early 90s as well. I do have a young wife and kids but I am way long in the tooth. Heck I have been retired for five years now…

I am sorry you feel hurt that I did not personally thank you for attending Historicon the last time you attended. I do make a point of talking to folks at the conventions and asking if they are enjoying themselves and if they have ANY observations, recommendations or discussions on the shows to contact us directly and I do have ALL my contact information to include home phone etc on the organization website. I also spend opening day and closing day talking to all the vendors and thanking them for their support of the hobby and the organization. HMGS does appreciate each and every attendee who come to the shows and carry the mission back to the trenches the other 51 weeks of the year. To ALL our attendees my heartfelt thanks.
VR
James Mattes

JAMES, actually nice to see that you signed this post withour a title. I understand adding the title when a post deals with Historicon. You would not want to be called a 'sock' puppet.

Also nice to hear that you have been around hobby for a long time. We will not start pulling out the TMP posts where I support Historicon, Cold War and Fall In. Nor am I going to post what a BoD member told me recently at a convention whcih would make a lot of small dealers upset. I am sure that I am not more critical of Historicon/ HMGS-east as others.

What I state on HMGS-South website is a fact. I do enjoy those shows which have less dealer open hours restrictions than other conventions. While I understand why very large shows like Historicon need to close early, there are other smaller shows that I attend which do the same thing which I feel costs me money.

I will always stand by my statements of SUPPORT and preference for the HMGS-South shows over those of HMGS-East.

Rudy:
Regarding your last post and the phrase, "Nor am I going to post what a BoD member told me recently at a convention whcih would make a lot of small dealers upset."
I consider myself a small dealer and would be very interested in learning what you are referring to. Who said what, please? So would all the other 20+ dealers currently in our dealer association. If you don't know who I am, say so and I'll contact you.
Regarding James' attendence numbers…there has not been one dealer who has attended any of the East conventions in the past several years that comes close to agreeing with those numbers. At least none have come forward to date to agree with James. I do not believe for one moment they are accurate. James already knows this from postings within two dealer yahoo groups.
James certainly did not collect all the data over the years and it is the 'system' whereby these numbers were collected,,,,fudge factors,,,,,,who was counted etc,,,,that the dealers have issues with. We do not see in the dealer room anywhere near the numbers James so readily reports – especially within the past two years. The system of body counting has not been consistent year after year. The only thing I'm certain of is that James believes his numbers are correct.
I do not defend or speak for Pat Condray and his numbers – I'll let him defend them – but I believe Pat gleaned his information from sources and numbers supplied by HMGS East personel in historical reports and postings through out the years. Much as I hate to say it,,,,I come closer to agreeing more with Pat's reporting than I do James' numbers, but even Pat's report relied on numbers created by what I consider to be a faulty system.
I will leave this posting with the same question I asked James on the dealer yahoo group which went unanswered. If he answers it here, please somebody tell me because right now I've got him stifled. The question I asked after seeing James' attendence numbers was the following:
If the reported large increases in East convention attendence are true, then why was it necessary to implement any cost increases at all, especially in the dealer room where we've seen multiple increases in just the past few years?
Ironclad Man
PS – Rudy,,,I'm serious,,,,please contact me.

Gosh T,
Break my heart. Here is a suprise for you Pat gets his numbers from us! Duh!
VR
James Mattes

Ironclad Man 09 Jun 2006 11:05 a.m. PST

Regarding James' attendence numbers…there has not been one dealer who has attended any of the East conventions in the past several years that comes close to agreeing with those numbers. At least none have come forward to date to agree with James. I do not believe for one moment they are accurate. James already knows this from postings within two dealer yahoo groups. <\h4>

Really? I can name four or five off the top of my head. You do not attend the all three conventions. There are a few other vendors who only want or are able to attend this or that convention. HMGS and I stand by those numbers. We have been tracking them pretty consistently from 1999 for sure using the same tacking mechanism. Even where there is some who buys a ticket but can get in under another category (me for example as a GM, and work staff from time to time and I pay anyway) Bill scrubs the list for duplication. Nuff said…

On to a more interesting diatribe…

More interesting than THIS, James? I think not! 8)=

The numbers are the best available, but there is plenty about them to question. Many people buy the pre-reg discount ticket, as it is cheaper than a one day pass. They may only attend for one day, though the overall tally would show them as a full weekend pass.

Many of the tourney guys on previous flames here talked about (bragged?) that they never leave the tourney area and don't shop at the dealers at all. This makes me question if they even purchase a badge, but I'll take their word for not going into the dealer area.

Many people I know only come to shop, and don't play games at all. Many mainly come to play games. Some come just to drink. ;-)

Many of those counted are family or visitors, and don't really impact much at all.

The only thing that HMGS East can go by are the number of badges purchased, plus the GMs, plus visitors, plus dealers. The overall numbers are an educated guess.

The Host is so open that other than the dealer area it is almost useless to try to enforce anything but a required badge at the dealer hall, which is what they do. Kind of makes me wonder why they just don't hand stamp at that door and forget the rest.

Why would you stifle anyone? Even people I disagree with I would defend their right to say what they want. Curious.

Howdy,

I have heard a lot about tourney players spending almost the whole con in The Hall (so-to-speak), but I have yet to meet ONE tourney player that hasn't blown their wad on lead in the dealer's room. At *every* show.

…And although a few players do not wear badges (for whatever reason), I have never met any who didn't pay to get in.

Ken

James said above, "Nuff said…"
Well ole boy you didn't answer the question again so I guess you're done. Nor did he name any dealers that agreed with his numbers.
And, James, please turn off the darned highlighter or whatever it is you're doing…….I just might jump to the conclusion you're yelling at me. I'll look but I don't recall anyone else using it……or having to use it.
BTW to all, I stifled James for "dissing" my man Elvis….that's all. But what was supposed to be a 48 hour period turned into a very refreshing 8 days. (Two others have decided to stifle James since then. Go figure.)
Ironclad Man

"Many of the tourney guys on previous flames here talked about (bragged?) that they never leave the tourney area and don't shop at the dealers at all."

I'm a tourney guy who spends 50% of his time in the Lampeter room so I'll have to second Ken in that I have never heard or seen anything remotely like the above quote.
Bragging that you don't shop? Never happened.

Ralph

Please go back and read some of the past flame wars here about tournament space, etc. At least several posted that they only come to play the tournament, and don't play any other games or go to the dealer area. Their words, not mine. If you have issue with it then take it up with them, as I am only repeating what they said. Whether it is true or not I have no idea, but they said it.

In regards to shopping, IIRC, they said they shop online instead.

I think their point was that if the tournaments weren't to their liking they wouldn't attend at all.

Greetings,

I have read 'em, and I believe that the messages were more of "..If the tourneys get cut, we can always shop on line and just skip the con." Gamers *shop*. If their games get cut, they will just shop elsewehere.

Ken

Interesting that Battlefront chose not to hold the Flames of War Tournament at Historicon but rather at Origins…that's 100 participants right there.

This is just my opinion, but I think Origins draws ten times the attendees that Hcon does, so from a business stand point, it makes sense.

Peter Palmer 15 Jun 2006 12:26 a.m. PST
Interesting that Battlefront chose not to hold the Flames of War Tournament at Historicon but rather at Origins…that's 100 participants right there.

We they DID what to hold them at Historicon but we did NOT have enough room. Just another example of Hcon out growing the Host…
VR
James Mattes

Glad things are that big a success.

But – that said – why is the answer to that success to cut space?

Shouldn't it be to add space?

Short answer is there is no room at the inn! We did adjust and address some space issues as we were too crowed in many of the gaming areas. We had allowded over the past few years to over crowd the space and generally made it hard to get around. There has not been an open table in the exhibitor hall for many a year at Hcon.
VR
James Mattes

Since I have a bit of experience running Conventions, let me point out, BY THE WAY I AM DEFENDING NO ONE!, what no space means.

Every Convention's events run like a bell curve. Thursday night probally and average usage, probally open tables in a lot of spots. Friday morning till 2pm about the same. Friday night it starts to ping. By Saturday 12-2pm, if the convention is doing well with body count and hangovers are subsided, there will probally be table problems. Not from poor management of table allocation but usually cuz some Bozo stole a table form somewhere else. So some schmuck will have to fish one out of the back and set it up. Sunday…graveyard, I have to go home and hide the lead I bough from the wife. That is the basic life cycle of a Convention Events, so if you see a lot of table empty they are that way to support the Saturday 10-4 flood.

I could weigh in on the number counts and after ten years of running Cons I have a pretty good Eye for that, but why bother it really is not gonna change anything, what is really gonna hurt is the constant rise in material costs that the dealers are suffering through, I think we should start really seeing it beginning with this Con. $3 USD gas and high material costs have been here long enough to start filtering down.