| Dragon Gunner | 01 Jun 2006 1:22 a.m. PST |
This subject has come up in the past and I just thought of one more reason why the Waffen SS are popular. No matter how bad of a commander you are the fanatical morale can still win games for you. The SS guys hang around to the bitter end. |
| christot | 01 Jun 2006 3:39 a.m. PST |
"use the Waffen SS simply because they have cool camo uniforms (spring/fall oak leaf, pea dot) that regular Heer/Wehrmacht units don't, not so much because they are considered 'elite.' The only advantage they have from a purely historical wargaming viewpoint is higher leadership and morale due to their political indoctrination in National Socialism and better equipment. Waffen SS formations got higher priority in being equipped with Tigers and Panthers over Wehrmacht units." Not necessarilly the case at all, – have a look at Zetterling's Normandy book with detailed returns and delivery schedules for both SS and whermact units- shows it to be quite the opposite, whermact units got kit much more quickly and in greater numbers than the SS units in France. cheers chris |
| Bushranger | 01 Jun 2006 6:25 a.m. PST |
I don't think you have to write off critical self reflection when playing SS as 'political'. There comes a time when 'historical' speaks enough on its own. It's cool to have well equipped elite troops to beat up your friend's little armies with, just as it's cool to defeat them. It IS just a game. Of course, if you're unfortunate enough to have to listen to a ss mythologist crap on about the supermen, then you'd be advised to put them away awhile. Similarly, if someone is genuinely upset for personal reasons, humanity says that if they aren't shoving it on you, you might consider giving it a rest out of respect. Judgement and 'rightness' sometimes isn't the right response, just acceptance and rejoicing in the fact that there's plenty of other 'badies' one can paint up and play… |
| M1Fanboy | 01 Jun 2006 6:55 a.m. PST |
Personally, I use em for the smiple fact is, I like to see them get smashed up on the table. My SS unit is kept small for the most part, an understrength platoon. (Which fits well with everything I read) and if I feel generous, I give 'em a Panther or Mk IV in support. Then, I turn the Russians/Americans loose, funny how they keep dying to the last man? I much prefer playing with my Heer 116th PzGdrs or my Paras… |
| MaksimSmelchak | 01 Jun 2006 6:57 a.m. PST |
Hi Guys, I avoid the SS because of personal experiences that my family suffered. All of my WWII Germans are Wehrmacht for that reason. It's not their sight that particularly bothers me… it's the folks that need to play-act while using their SS miniatures and wear unifrms and say unsightly things. I guess for me… I sort of worry that SS players might have neo-Nazi leanings, which I am highly against. And there are still neo-Nazis around… Mein Kampf is a best seller hit in many Arab countries and Germany still has its contingent. I know that there's plenty of folks who just want history so I stay tolerant unless I see something otherwise. Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak. |
| Daryl G | 01 Jun 2006 7:46 a.m. PST |
Who cares.. everyone just play with the figures you want.. |
| nazrat | 01 Jun 2006 7:49 a.m. PST |
If you read the thread above it's painfully apparent that LOTS of people care! I own no SS figures myself, but I really have no problem with anybody playing SS. I completely understand those that do, though, and would certainly avoid stepping on any toes simply out of respect. |
| Derek H | 01 Jun 2006 8:03 a.m. PST |
The SS seemed to have a rather negative effect on the forces who fought them. The long running fight between the Canadians and Hitler Jugend in Normandy was rather unpleasant for example. |
| GrossKaliefornja | 01 Jun 2006 9:00 a.m. PST |
Sapper, when a 'lampshade' comes up on Ebay, let me know |
BlackWidowPilot  | 01 Jun 2006 9:08 a.m. PST |
<<"After finishing SOLDIERS OF DESTRUCTION by Charles W. Sydnor, Jr (ISBN 1-56865-834-6), which recounts in considerable detail the bloody record of the 11th Waffen SS "Totenkopf" Division from 1933-45, it hit me like a 7.9mm MG 42 burst. I would do up Waffen SS figures as unmistakeable members of the Totenkopf Division, skull n' crossbones and all." Whatever floats your boat, but at least get your facts straight. The infamous Totenkopf (Deaths Head) division is the 3rd, not the 11th.>> LOL! Yeah, for some reason I got the 11th (Nordland) stuck in my head when I typed that, as you'll recall I mentioned the various foreign volunteer SS units, and being the grandson of Scandinavian immigrants, I suspect a deep-seated loathing for the various Scandinavian Quislings is just written into my DNA. Mea culpa for any confusion, everyone! ;p As for getting my facts straight, please feel free to challenge the *content* of the book at any time, as Sydnor relied upon official SS and other equally official German records and sources for this book. I'll freely debate the book's merits accordingly… And for those who may wonder if I had any direct connection to the victims of the Waffen SS, well, besides the fact that my late Uncle Lloyd was probably shot at by a few of them when he served with Patton's 3rd Army, I also had a classmate who's grandmother had a number tatooed on her arm. Beyond that, I'm just one of those "bleedin' heart liberals" who refuses to forget *what* the Waffen SS was really all about, hence why I refuse to romanticize them, and hence my Kzinti smile at the dude who enjoys using his Waffen SS French volunteers…>;D Cheers! Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net |
| Fred Cartwright | 01 Jun 2006 9:33 a.m. PST |
"Hmm… the SS were just following orders. Well each and every one joined a unit that was going to get the sharp end of those orders. You didn't get into the SS without being a paid-up Nazi, which in my book is enough to warrant a short rope coupled with a long drop." Oscar Schindler was also a paid up Nazi? Would you include him in your death list?
"The German atrocities stand out because by the 20th century we had moved on. Except them. They were still in the 11th century by way of ethics."
Sadly I don't think that holds water at all. The history of the C20th is full of such atrocities. Russians and Japanese both indulged in wholesale slaughter. More recently we have the unpleasantness in Rwanda and the Balkans. Not that ethnice cleansing is anything new. Been around fro thousands of years and looks like it will be for sometime to come. |
| Belkor | 01 Jun 2006 10:44 a.m. PST |
A few years ago, US marines were popular as an elite force in any modern war game. You don't hear many players bragging about them now, after the war crimes the marines are comitting in Iraq. In a few years they will be popular again, just like the SS. People know that they did lots of evil things, but they will still like to field them in an historical wargame. |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 01 Jun 2006 10:51 a.m. PST |
The Marines will never be compared to the Waffen SS. The USMC has a long, storied tradition of honor and courage and they'll survive any tarnish of its image this unfortunate incident caused by a few overzealous Marines, just like the US Army with the My Lai massacre during 'Nam. |
| chalkboy8 | 01 Jun 2006 12:23 p.m. PST |
Belkor… please use ALLEGED when referring to alleged war crimes the USMC is accused of. They have not had their day in court. It is inappropriate to act as if they are guilty before the investigation is complete. |
| Belkor | 01 Jun 2006 1:52 p.m. PST |
OK, I stand corrected. They are innocent until proven guilty. I didn't mean to hurt any feelings. My point is that even units that have done horrific things will be interesting and acceptable to use in wargames once some time has past. You don't have to agree with WWII German ideology or American methods to fight terrorism to find it interesting to simulate the battles they fought. |
| CLOSED ACCOUNT | 01 Jun 2006 2:45 p.m. PST |
I think it is a case of allowing each person to do his own thing. If you find the idea of playing with Waffen-SS (I think it is worth noting the difference here to the Allegmaine SS) not to your taste fair enough. But I guess the point is that you must allow others to use such things as is the desire to do so. Trying to ram one arguement or the other down poeples throats will never work… after this is TOY SOLDIERS after all…
My earlier point on the glamourisation of the Waffen-SS in the last 20 years is one that continues to interest me and the views displayed here show a similar spectrum to those displayed when i first gave a lecture on that subject.
Some people, find the whole Waffen SS as distasteful and despicable others think thay are 'cool'. It interests me as to why thsi change has come about. Certainly all things German sell better on the historical publications market. Their are those authors who have cedrtainly cashed in on this with their books that are light on text but heavy on the same old stock photos. What disturbs me with regards to the more recent publications is the willingness to overlook the more dubious qualities/actions of certain Waffen-SS units. I have one history of 'Das Reich' which decides not to mention Oradour as it is not 'part of its combat history'. I have also seen 7th SS Freiwillgen Gebirgsjager Div 'Prinz Eugen' described as 'one of the few SS units to have an unblemished record'… The worry is that if the trend continues the Waffen-SS will be remembered for their fighting prowess at the cost of their darker side. Both should be remembered to honour those who died on both sides. That the Waffen-SS were brave and resolute fighters is without question (such men as Emil Durr deserve to be remembered by history) but we must never over glamourise these formations. They had a tendency towards horrific acts, and while perhaps not every Waffen-SS soldier committed atrocities, most of the divisons have a dubious record at best in this respect… as do several Heer formations and certain elements of the Luftwaffe. Having studied the Waffen-SS for around 20+ years it is still a subject that interests and occasionally repulses me… And perhaps that is the atraction of these formations, they were also fairly unique in history as a private political army that grew in tremendous size during the war. |
| tovarischdavid | 01 Jun 2006 2:47 p.m. PST |
No objections here, kind of hard to dipict certian battle scenarios and campaigns without them. But then again, not every SS unit in my games is "Elite" with more Tiger II's than you can shake a stick at either. |
| CLOSED ACCOUNT | 01 Jun 2006 2:48 p.m. PST |
Forgot to add… On the comment that resting and recuperating waffen SS troops served in concentration camps I would disagree. Most saw this duty as a punishment detail and disliked it, in certain units it was indeed used in this way. I dont think you will find that all wounded Waffen-SS troops served in the camps. While some did, certainly SS-VT for example, I doubt that many did. |
| BlackWidowPilot | 01 Jun 2006 3:23 p.m. PST |
<<Forgot to add… On the comment that resting and recuperating waffen SS troops served in concentration camps I would disagree. Most saw this duty as a punishment detail and disliked it, in certain units it was indeed used in this way. I dont think you will find that all wounded Waffen-SS troops served in the camps. While some did, certainly SS-VT for example, I doubt that many did.>> According to Sydnor this was SOP as established by Eicke (founder of the SS TKV). That said its clearly the case that as the war dragged on, this wasn't always practical, so more than a few of the Waffen SS soldats no doubt avoided this particular tour of duty. Again, mea culpa for any confusion; Sydnor is quite clear that this was Eicke's pet idea, and he implemented it with all of his fanatic's dedication, at least while he was still alive. Once Eicke was out of the picture, things got rather looser… Cheers! Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net |
