"For those of you who won't play SS, why?" Topic

I personally, like the SS. They were, generally speaking, brave and capable troops, and who doesn't love the uniforms. I also like the evil aspect. Gives the ggod guys something to overcome.

To me, SS are like orcs or dragons. They are cool-looking monsters to be defeated. The difference of courseis that, while there were real SS, there were no real orcs or dragons, IIUC.

But I would emphasize the word "were." They are gone now, and nobody is in danger of the 10th SS Panzer Division overrruning his living room. So why get upest about it?

Who they were and what they did is dead and gone. All that remains are cool looking figures on the gaming table.

For your own safety, get back under the bridge; it's daytime.

Allen

I guess it's differnt for some people. Everyones feelings on matters differ. If you dont like playing the SS thats cool as long as you dont mind if I do. Again, if you dont like that I play them thats fine you will just need to find a differnt opponent. Just please dont preach to me thats all I ask.

"Who they were and what they did is dead and gone."

Pay a visit to a 12th SS Hitlerjugend reunion and you will find the opposite is true…

Personally, I have no problem playing the SS, but what they did is certainly not "dead and gone" to many people. Neo-Nazis are also alive and well in the U.S. and other parts of the world and the Nazi ideology is not "dead and gone." Depending on your race/color/religion, etc. you may find members of the reconstituted 10th SS in your living room. You would be best advised to respect other gamer's personal decisions and let it go at that. Interesting topic for your first post.

How many are left to show up at the reunion?

aecurtis "For your own safety, get back under the bridge; it's daytime."

Uh huh. So how do you like your billy goat gruffs, anyway? I hear they taste like chicken?

79thPA

Neo-Nazis are also alive and well in the U.S. and other parts of the world and the Nazi ideology is not "dead and gone."

A few random nutcases do not the SS make.

"Depending on your race/color/religion, etc. you may find members of the reconstituted 10th SS in your living room."

Huh?

You would be best advised to respect other gamer's personal decisions and let it go at that. Interesting topic for your first post.

Whatever. I can ask, and have done so, and that's that.

Since I'd be playing the battles, and not the between-battle atrocities, I would have no problems buying, painting, and fighting SS minis in proper context. Don't ask me to buy or paint the "between battles atrocities" pack, though, and don't ask me to play a WWII game that includes "commit unspeakable acts" as a special rule for SS units in a town. Remembering the lessons of WWII is one thing. Playing those lessons for victory points is beyond the pale.

If I were inclined to play WWII Germans, that is. Since I'm not, it's somewhat academic.

He's baaaaa-aaaack!

I dislike SS because they are a bunch of overrated politically indoctrinated thugs in uniform. Aside from a few elited hand-picked units, the SS were hardly supermen.

It's not fun to see the x-th "Last ditch" 3rd of May SS-kampfgruppe, lavishly equipped with carefully hoarded Sturmgewehren, King Tigers, Maus, more flakpanzers than the Allied player has Shermans, Me 262 aircover and enough fuel and ammo to push back the allies all the way to Oregon …

"How many are left to show up at the reunion?"

The one I attended had quite a few… Over 100 I guess. Dont forget these guys were 17 or 18 in 1944… That makes them 80ish now.

Ive met a few SS veterans. Most are nice enough guys… But the 12th SS ones scared me a little…

"your smarter brother"

You definately got the second word hideously wrong.

5 stifles in one day on your first topic… That must be a record…

I agree to an extent with YSB. Is there a historical period when bad things didn't happen? In terms of personal history should I get all uptight at the idea of gaming in WW2 Far East where one of my relatives died, or WW1 Western Front where another relative died, or the French Wars of Religion where some of my ancestors were forced to leave the country thanks to the Catholics or the Roman incursions into the Steppes leading to other ancestors being forced to move across two continents? My grandfather hated the Japanese so much, but never got too animated about the Germans, and he fought both. Seems to me the SS simply got a bad press, and we all know who controls that.

"Seems to me the SS simply got a bad press"

And the winner of the 'Understatement of the year" award goes to…

"Seems to me the SS simply got a bad press"

There you go, blaming the dang liberal media again. Hah!

I guess Hitler was just the victim of negative attack ads by his political opponents.

Certain elements of the SS were mass murdering s. Sorry… But aint much other than bad press about that…

As for the Waffen-SS… I think peoples view of them has been distorted over the last few years by the plethora of books trying to change their image to one of a knightly order.

Certain authors, in my opinion, are guilty of this. I did a fair amount of research on this during my MA and there has been a distinct change in perceptions in the last ten years as publishers realise that the Waffen-SS sell books…

Allen – LOL! However, it may be that this is a poster of the new, improved (?) Mordor variety, immune to the petrifying effects of solar radiation.

Doug

That may well be true, Doug.

So can we assume that as past banned TMPers try to come back under new nicks, they become Mordorized? Or would that be Sauronated?

Allen

Why is it that Sauron and Mordor get the good press, anyway? Morgoth didn't have to get by one just one Maus or King Tiger (balrog or giant spider); he could crank them out by the hundreds. Obviously his Ruhr wasn't getting the snot bombed out of it.

Allen

because if i want to field a well motivated, well equipped german force, i can always send out the GD. i don't have any big problem gaming with the SS or those that do. i'd just rather skip the the whole debate on their relative "merits" and game.

OK. Here's my two-yuans' worth on the subject, being the crumudgeony ole' WW2 gamer that I am…

For the longest time I actually struggled with the very idea of painting up a Waffen SS formation for the wargame table. I was more than a little put off by Himmler's fanatic legions, having studied them and their activities before, during, and *after* WW2 in some considerable detail. Let's cut to the chase, the Waffen SS and the cause they stood for (fascism) was and remains morally repugnant and utterly indefensible.

So. What to do? My Red Army forces need to fight *someone* other than the Italians, Rumanians, or Hungarians (all of whom they rolled over pretty badly!), and the garden-variety soldats of the Heer just weren't sufficiently nasty for my tastes. Finns I've got, when I want to really give the Red Army a bad time, but every now and then I really wanted to have an all-out no-quarter-given-none-asked type of battle between two more or less equally fanatical opponents. Then it hit me in a flash of inspiration…

After finishing SOLDIERS OF DESTRUCTION by Charles W. Sydnor, Jr (ISBN 1-56865-834-6), which recounts in considerable detail the bloody record of the 11th Waffen SS "Totenkopf" Division from 1933-45, it hit me like a 7.9mm MG 42 burst. I would do up Waffen SS figures as unmistakeable members of the Totenkopf Division, skull n' crossbones and all. This would allow me to scratch several itches at once, as I have long been a proponent of using miniatures and miniature wargaming as a *teaching tool!*

So now in all of their despicable glory my Waffen SS forces have continued to take shape. My aim is a Totenkopf kampfgruppe circa 1943 at Kursk including a company of Pzkpfw III with the long 5 cm gun, and an early Barbarossa 1941 kampfgruppe mounted in ex-French Army Renault trucks, both with sufficient support elements to keep things interesting. Morale is easy enough, as the Totenkopf members didn't seem to know when to quit, and pretty much fought themselves to pieces trying to kill everyone named Ivan that came within reach. As the Red Army grunts learned very quickly from experience, the Totenkopf soldats could not be expected to show them any mercy, and so they returned the favor…;p

I refuse to romanticize these murdering thugs and fanatics. I will not speak well of their fighting abilities except to acknowledge that their careful recruitment, intensive political indoctrination and level of training was such that an exceptionally dangerous band of ruthless killers was the only possible result. These are not the late war Waffen SS units made up of "freiwillig" foreign volunteers (most of whom were pathological fanatics in their own right, just not so formally trained!), nor are they the Liebstandart Adolf Hitler that are so annoyingly popular among gamers who seem to forget their origins and belief system too easily as they gush over their "cool uniforms" and "wicked" equipment. BTW, all Waffen SS personnel who returned from the front wounded were required by SS policy to serve in the concentration camps as guards while they were recuperating prior to being sent back to the front. AFAIK LAH personnel were *not* exempt from this either.

Sorry. Not in this man's wargame army. >;D

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net
(And some people wonder why I play the French…) >;D

I use the Waffen SS simply because they have cool camo uniforms (spring/fall oak leaf, pea dot) that regular Heer/Wehrmacht units don't, not so much because they are considered 'elite.' The only advantage they have from a purely historical wargaming viewpoint is higher leadership and morale due to their political indoctrination in National Socialism and better equipment. Waffen SS formations got higher priority in being equipped with Tigers and Panthers over Wehrmacht units.

"After finishing SOLDIERS OF DESTRUCTION by Charles W. Sydnor, Jr (ISBN 1-56865-834-6), which recounts in considerable detail the bloody record of the 11th Waffen SS "Totenkopf" Division from 1933-45, it hit me like a 7.9mm MG 42 burst. I would do up Waffen SS figures as unmistakeable members of the Totenkopf Division, skull n' crossbones and all."

Whatever floats your boat, but at least get your facts straight. The infamous Totenkopf (Deaths Head) division is the 3rd, not the 11th.

If you read Omar Bartov's book "Hitler's Army" he makes a fairly compelling case that Heer units were little different to SS in terms of political indoctrination or when it came to commiting atrocities. So there is very little moral comfort in fielding a Heer wargames army.
Of course the Russians were known to commit more than the odd atrocity themselves. Have a look at "Gotterdamerung 1945" for some stomach churning accounts of the sort of things done to civilians by advancing Russian forces.
However both the Germans and Russians can be given more than a good run for their money by the Japanese. "The Rape of Nanking" has some harrowing accounts including a competition between two officers to see who could decapitate the most Chinese in one hour with Samurai swords.
So if you are going to wargame WW2 from the moral high ground you really have to leave out Germans, Rusians and Japanese. That leaves Brits or French vs Italians I think. Early desert war anyone? :-)

If I put on a game with SS troops on one side and a player refused to play I'd think he was a twit. But if he played in good spirit but explained he wasn't happy about SS being on the table or playing the German side himself I'd take his POV on board and next game make an effort to accomodate him so he gets to enjoy himself as much as the other players.

To my mind someone who makes such a song and dance about something like this to the extent of spoiling a game/evening others have put a lot of effort into is really just showing off – it's like "hey, check out how really right on and principled I am…" Notice he probably wouldn't have any qualms about playing the Russians with their NKVD troops…

Having said that I agree with La Mancha – in recent years the Waffen SS has had too much good press and been cast as a sort of latter day order of Tuetonic Knights. While they were certainly elite, brave, stubborn etc you can't really avoid the fact that atrocities were common place on the Eastern Front and the SS were essentially the military arm of the Nazi party – heavily indoctrinated and implicated in all sorts of gruesomness.

If I didn't know better I'd say Little Sorrel (or his evil, littler brother) was back…

Your average Jap soldier was far more heartless than any SS dude. Don't see them bothering anyone at the game table.

I don't think it's a conspiracy by the Jewish controlled media. a) Hitler had a very stunning propaganda machine captivating the world's attention b) the Allies also had their own vast anti-Nazi propaganda machine fanning the flames, then c) we have the dramatic way the regime went down.

There's no other group of bad guys in history that got that much airtime. Not even close. In other words, we are still gripped by the self perpetuating Nazi-centric propaganda & mythology of the last century, in one way or the other.

I doubt if many (or any) people on this thread have a direct connection to a Waffen-SS atrocity.

It took me years to do so, but I finished my 20mm WW2 SS unit some years ago. The French SS unit that died in Berlin to be percise, and I manage to get them killed in every game I use them in. Only advantage over Allied troops is that they die to the man (and I smile).

The Heer had as much civilian blood on its hands as the SS and to pretend otherwise is to buy into the myth.

The winners get to define the rules, but the Germans in WW2 went beyond the pale in terms of how they treated civilians, enemy soliders and such. I don't even have to make the argument as history is a bitter truth for those who want to believe otherwise.

Dan

Hmm. I was pretty sure this would stir up a bit of controversy, but didn't think the firestorm would be this intense.

Anyway, I still play 'em, and enjoy it. Incidentally, I also run a Blood on the Rhine (WW2 D&D) campaign, where they are the major villains, complete with werewolves, robots, flying-saucer-alien-allies, and other nazi weirdness.

To me, its all fun.

"I doubt if many (or any) people on this thread have a direct connection to a Waffen-SS atrocity"

No, but I can name a few that I have befriended over the years. Luckily, my great uncle died to massive injuries so that he was not captured by the SS like most of his fellow crew members were in 1944. Most of them were not turned over to the Luftwaffe, but instead were sent to a local concentration camp. The SS officer was well know to cut the flesh off of a prisoner if they have a "pretty" tattoo and make book covers, lampshades, etc., with it. My great uncle had two large blue bird tattoos on his back, what do you think would have happen to him?

The PC police are out in force, not yet it seems. Here is something for you-they(SS)were just following orders. Good guys given a lot of bad press that is all. Cool weapons and equipment. High morale which is a plus in gaming. Hitler was a bit daffy but then again he isn't the only world leader that is bonkers. Look around.

I happened to have read one of these books that referred to the Waffen SS as Tutonic Knights. What drek! He even tried to say the Einsaatzgruppen or death squads, who murdered nearly five hundred thousand people in less than six months while numbering only about three hundred themselves, weren't really so bad. Why, because they had a high rate of suicide. Anyone who would put such drivel to paper needs his head examined.

"If I put on a game with SS troops on one side and a player refused to play I'd think he was a twit."

Thanks for thinking of me as a twit for most of my life.

I could never bring myself to play the SS. It is just now, in the last few years that I will play in a game with SS, but as the Allies. I am just now starting to paint up a small force of SS Mountain troops only because I need to have them for game that I will be putting on in the future. I would not even considered this, if it was not for the fact that no one I know has mountain troops.

But, I would understand anyone who would refuses to play a specific group or time period and not think of them as a twit.

As for playing SS units I am a gamer who can keep things in perspective and will play them. I will also enthusiastically play against them as Joes, Tommys, and Ivans.

Lampshades. That myth has already been debunked. See what I mean?

"The SS officer was well know to cut the flesh off of a prisoner if they have a "pretty" tattoo and make book covers, lampshades"

It's not so much that I have a problem with having the SS on the table, it's the fact that I have found that this particular army tends to be played by gamers who I don't like very much.

It's almost as if the SS gets tarred with the "unpleasant gamers" brush!

These gamers tend to be the type of person who romanticises the SS (and similar), and who always plays the Romans, or the French Imperial Guard etc.

SirG

Your smarter brother: Why couldn't you post this topic using your regular TMP member account?

Hmm… the SS were just following orders. Well each and every one joined a unit that was going to get the sharp end of those orders. You didn't get into the SS without being a paid-up Nazi, which in my book is enough to warrant a short rope coupled with a long drop.

I speak as someone who doesn't play Germans full stop. I just can't get up the enthusiasm to want them to win. I enjoy Finns, Romanians and Hungarians, but just not Germans.

And if someone fielded an SS unit against me, fair enough. But if someone started going on about how wonderful they were – erm… read more. They were undoubtedly brave men in a perverted cause. As are (if I can be so bold without getting Dawghoused)suicide bombers of whatever persuation be it Tamils, Palestinians or Al Quaeda.

To answer the question as to why the SS are regarded as being beyond the pale when Crusaders etc aren't. When the Crusaders or Mongols were doing their evilness, it was, to a large extent, the way things were. They didn't really stand out as unusual, they're from a brutal age.

The German atrocities stand out because by the 20th century we had moved on. Except them. They were still in the 11th century by way of ethics.

And of course, time is a great healer. British history is full of atrocities which are these days unknown by the vast majority of the public. But when you know people who have witnessed these events, it's too raw to deal with.

YAWN…

Bill: you are saying the poster isn't
'Little Sorrels Smarter Younger Brother'?

Go Figure…!

Ok. You want a serious answer.

My grandfather, Graham Guy, served as an RAF MP. He was one of the first people in Bergen Belsen. He also spoke fluent German and interrogated Heer and Schutzstaffel. He would rarely talk about 'the war', it would pain him to do so.

I have a friend who won't touch WW2 with a bargepole. I asked him why. His family is Lithuanian and Jewish, need he say more?

So no I don't play SS. I have read thoroughly of their recruitment, methods and ideology. Facinating and horrifying it is.

May I suggest you take Bill's advice and post in future under your first account. I dislike people who hide behind masks or those who feel the need to change their names to hide their identity.

Guy
(Named after his Grandfather)

My family lost many people during the war as well – against the Russians. It is well known that they fought in a savage manner (which is why all of eastern Europe rejected Communism and joined NATO when they had the chance). Yet I still paint and play lots of Russian figures all the time (and they look real cool too!). I have some Waffen SS platoons painted, and I play them too, but mostly I paint and play Wehrmacht units. The point is that I try to treat it as a game, although when the discussion inevitably arises as to the merits of the armed SS, I always point out that they represent an extreme viewpoint, an anachronism – a lunatic fringe. But the reasons for that go beyond internet postings and is more fitting for personal research.

This might sound funny, but I have more trouble playing Americans – I don't like to see any of them being killed! But I have no trouble seeing my Russians and Germans killing each other.

Steve

I am just getting on line now, but in reply to the original question:
"Because they disgust me".

Thank you for asking.

Return of Lil Sorrel?

Its a bit hard to play Market-Garden, particularly arnhem/Oosterbeek or Brit' 2nd army actions in normandy without them.

I do agree that they're no worse than the Japanese during and just prior to the second world war, and yet I'd get less grief playing a Burma or New Guinea action than the brigade box action of 7th Armoured near Villiers Brettonaux (sp?). I wonder if this has less to do with moral repugnance and more to do with fear of being judged.

Hmm even if this is a thread cause by a spot of trolling, its still thought provoking.

@GrossKaliefornja

"Lampshades. That myth has already been debunked"

Yeah, sure…whatever

It is ashame that you can't tell that to my great uncle's pilot & navigator who spent hell in that concentration camp. I am sure that they were more than lying about what they saw.

I dont normally jump on this sort of thread (topic, not from the flame poster who we should all ignore) but we all (99%)game or model things that represent unthinkable death, horror and experiences. From all periods.

I dont idolize SS at all – they played a significant part in battles that I like to game so its hard to completely bypass them. WW2 was a devastating conflict and I dont think theres much difference between the suffering of Greek civilians or of family at home that lost loved ones. Do some reading and you'll quicky find that theres not much difference between the Japanese or Russian actions towards prisoners or civilians either. It basically all bad.

BTW the Jews have been pursecuted by most of Europe well before the Nazis jumped on the bandwagon but most of those nations can now happily point at a group to take the heat off them so to speak.

Most of us just want to game – without the politics.

I of cause meant Villiers bocage, not Brettenaux (which I still cant spell).